Troll Lord Games

Hi all-

Those of you who have played 2nd Ed AD&D know what i'm talking about when i say `specialty priests'.

As we all know, 1st Edition AD&D had clerics and druids. Clerics served essentially all organized religions and druids were the wild bunch. 2nd Ed developed specialty priests- a way of creating pseudo-classes that were more attuned to their mythos.

Now we have C&C. Has anyone attempted specialty priests? If so, how have you done it?

I'm working on a Birthright conversion, and this is one of the more difficult issues. While the priests of several gods (Haelyn, Avani) are essentially clerics, others are significantly different (Ruornil, Eloele) from the cleric class.

So what does one do? Create a new class with unique spells and powers for every deity? Reorganize spells into spheres like 2nd Ed?

I'm curious if others have encountered this problem in other conversions, and how people have dealt with it. Comments?

-Fizz

I've taken a stab at specialty cleric version of the Cerilian Deities. A sample of them can be found in this thread over at dragonsfoot.org. If you are interested in seeing the rest, you can PM me and I'll email you a .doc file of the other deities.

I have also posted my ordering of the C&C spell lists into 2e style "spheres" in this thread.

Either or both of these might help you out...

Fizz wrote:
Those of you who have played 2nd Ed AD&D know what i'm talking about when i say `specialty priests'.

I absolutely loved specialty priests. They came across to me as specialized followers of the gods. I think some of the 2e Forgotten Realms books on the gods (Faiths and Pantheons, I believe) has some good info on how to tackle a specialty priest.

Quote:
So what does one do? Create a new class with unique spells and powers for every deity? Reorganize spells into spheres like 2nd Ed?

When it comes to game design, I believe in the KISS theory (Keep It Simple, Stupid). I don't think you need new classes, unless the deity is just so different as to require it. Use the cleric class as your foundation.

From there, customize your weaponry. If your deity is a god of war, give the cleric a battle axe or something. If the deity is a god of peace, blunt weapons only. Etc. etc.

If you're using some sort of skills or non-weapon proficiency system, pick skills that relate to the deity. If it's a god of nature, give them some sort of survival skill.

As for spells, again, I recommend following the KISS theory. Reorganizing spells into spheres just seems like a lot of work. What I'd do is use the C&C cleric's spells as a foundation, then give the cleric a few bonus spells. You may have some prohibited spells as well, but no biggie.

I've actually been considering doing some work on this front with Dragonlance. Just hasn't been any time of late!
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Trampas Whiteman
---DragonHelm--->
Dragonlance Nexus

We just imported Domains from the SRD, wholesale, with no changes. Every cleric gets to choose two that relate to their deity's portfolio (with CK approval); they gain the granted ability for those domains, one bonus domain spell per day (chosen from the two lists), and the deity's favored weapon (which is standard for the C&C cleric anyway).

So far it's worked great, hasn't unbalanced the game at all, and above all, is nice and easy.

Here's my take on Cleric Domains/Specialty Priests. For spells that don't appear in the C&C PHB, you can use my conversions (see the AD&D 3rd Edition file) on my website. That file also lists what armors are light, medium or heavy and describes background skills and their use:
Agriculture: Priests of agricultural gods must take profession (farmer) as a background skill. They add the following spells to their repertoire:

Level 1: Goodberry

Level 2: Detect animals or plants

Level 3: Plant growth

Level 6: Move earth
Air, wind: Clerics of wind and air gods gain additional air spells but lose access to earth spells. They may not wear heavy armor.

Add the following spells to the clerics spell list:

Level 1: Feather fall

Level 2: Gust of wind

Level 3: Wall of wind

Level 5: Control winds

Level 7: Wind walk

Level 8: Whirlwind

Level 9: Elemental swarm

Remove the following spells from the clerics spell list:

Level 1: Magic stone

Level 3: Meld into stone

Level 7: Stone tell

Level 8: Earthquake

They may not conjure earth elementals, nor may they create clay golems. Air elementals conjured by these clerics gain 2 additional hit points per hit die.
Animals: Clerics of this domain add the following spells to their spell list: Level 1: Calm animals

Level 2: Charm person or mammal

Level 3: Dominate animal

Level 4: Animal summoning I

Level 5: Animal summoning II

Level 6: Animal summoning III

They must choose profession (animal handler) or knowledge (nature) skill as one of their background skills at 1st level. In place of raise dead, priests of this domain gain reincarnation. They are restricted to the use of light armor but may use any shield.
Arts: Clerics of this domain worship the gods of artistic inspiration and the performing arts. They must choose a performance skill as one of their background skills and gain an additional performance skill at levels 5, 10 and 15.

They add the following spells to their spell list:

Level 0: Prestidigitation

Level 1: Charm person

Level 2: Tashas hideous laughter

Level 3: Suggestion

Level 4: Charm monster

Level 7: Charm plants

Level 8: Ottos irresistible dance

Level 9: Mass charm

All clerics of this domain are limited to the use of light armor and small shields.
Blacksmith, the forge: These clerics must take a craft skill related to smithing as a background skill. At 18th level they may create iron golems using the same spells needed to make a clay golem but using the same materials (incurring the same expenses) for creating an iron golem.

The following spells are added to their spell list:

Level 1: Unseen servant

Level 6: Enchant an item

Level 7: Mordenkainens sword (favored melee weapon)

Level 8: Glassteel
Chaos: Priests of chaos are immune to insanity and confusion spells and spell effects. They add the following spells to their spell list:

Level 4: Confusion

Level 7: Insanity

They may never work to restore a creatures sanity by any means.
Darkness: Servants of darkness are skilled at blending into the shadows. They gain the hide and move silently abilities at 4th level, using these abilities as a thief of their cleric level 3. At 5th level they gain the ability to sneak attack for double damage. The damage dealt by their sneak attacks never increases. They may only wear light armor and use the weapons of thieves in place of those of clerics.

They may never cast light spells of any sort and suffer a 1 to all attack rolls in brightly list conditions.
Death: Death priests add the following spells to their spell list:

Level 6: Death spell

Level 8: Finger of death

At 3rd level and beyond they may feign death once per day in addition to their usual spell allotment. Both evil and neutral clerics of death gods command undead rather than turn them. They must take profession (embalmer) as a background skill.
Disease: Clerics of this mythos are immune to all diseases, regardless of their origin. At 3rd level they may cause disease once per week with their touch. This ability improves as the cleric rises in levels. At 9th level, the cleric can cause disease two times per week and, at 15th level, three times per week.

They may not cast cure disease or use the healing skills to treat those suffering from illness or disease.
Earth: Clerics of earth gods gain additional earth-based spells but lose access to air-based spells.

Add the following spells to the clerics spell list:

Level 2: Soften earth and stone

Level 3: Stone shape

Level 5: Transmute rock to mud, transmute mud to rock

Level 6: Wall of stone

Level 8: Animate rock

Remove the following spells from the clerics spell list:

Level 4: Air walk

Level 6: Aerial servant, wind walk

Level 7: Control weather

They may not conjure air elementals. All earth elementals summoned by these clerics gain 2 additional hit points per hit die.
Fire: Clerics of the fire domain gain access to fire-based spells but lose access to water-based spells.

Add the following spells to the clerics spell list:

Level 2: Flame blade (favored melee weapon)

Level 4: Produce fire

Level 5: Wall of fire

Level 7: Fire storm

Remove the following spells from the clerics spell list:

Level 3: Water breathing, water walk

Level 4: Control water

Level 7: Control weather

They may not conjure water elementals. All fire elementals summoned by these clerics gain 2 additional hit points per hit die.
Forests, wilderness: Clerics of this domain add survival as a class ability. They are restricted to the use of leather or hide armor and wooden shields. They add the following spells to their spell list:

Level 1: Detect animals or plants

Level 2: Tree

Level 3: Dominate animal

Level 4: Antiplant shell 10 radius

Level 5: Plant door

Level 6: Transport via plant

Level 7: Changestaff

At 5th level they add woodland stride as a class ability. They may never create golems of any sort and gain the turn undead ability at level 3 instead of at 1st level. Their effective cleric level, with regards to turning, is equal to their cleric level 2. In place of raise dead, priests of this domain gain reincarnation.
Healing: Clerics with this domain refrain from combat in all but the direst of circumstances, and use the BtH progression of magic-users due to their limited martial training. They are immune to all diseases, regardless of their origin.

At 3rd level they may cure disease once per week with their touch. This ability improves as the cleric rises in levels. At 9th level, the cleric can cure disease two times per week and, at 15th level, three times per week. When casting any cure spell, clerics of the healing domain may reroll all 1s and 2s rolled on each d8.

They may not cast cause disease, cause blindness/deafness, harm, wither or inflict wounds spells of any sort.
Hearth: Priests of the hearth typically stress the safety of home and their community to their flock. They are rarely adventurers. Clerics of this domain add the following spells to their spell list:

Level 1: Alarm, hold portal

Level 2: Wizard lock

Level 3: Leomunds tiny hut

Level 4: Leomunds secure shelter
Hunt: Clerics of the hunt gain the track class ability at 1st level and must take the profession (hunter) background skill. They are restricted to the use of light armor. In place of raise dead, priests of this domain gain reincarnation.
Industry: The clerics of this god worship the gods of item creation, whether that creation be of works of art, magical items or mundane items of any sort. They must choose a craft or profession skill tied to creative processes as one of their background skills.

They add the following spells to their spell list:

Level 0: Mending

Level 2: Obscure object

Level 4: Minor creation

Level 5: Major creation

Level 6: Enchant an item
Knowledge: Clerics of the knowledge domain are usually cloistered clerics (qv). If this new class is not used in your game, the following changes may be made to the standard cleric class.

Clerics of the knowledge domain may not wear armor but may use protective devices, such as rings of protection or bracers of defense. They gain the lore and decipher script class abilities at 1st level and begin play with 2 additional knowledge skills.

They use the BtH progression of magic-users due to their lack of combat training.
Law: Clerics of law, upon reaching 3rd level, may cast zone of truth once per day in addition to their usual spell allotment. At 7th level, they may also cast detect lie in addition to their daily spell allotment. They gain a +3 bonus to dispel chaos, confusion, insanity and symbol of insanity spells and may not cast these spells under any circumstance.
Light: Clerics of light gain a +2 bonus to all turn undead checks and may radiate a nimbus of light (as the light spell) for up to 1 turn per level per day.

They may never cast any darkness spell of any sort, nor may they animate dead.
Luck: Servants of the gods of luck are aware of fortunes fickle nature. Once per day they may add their level to any single ability check or attack roll they make. They must announce their intent to do so before making the roll. Should this roll fail, the cleric suffers a 1 penalty to all saving throws for 1 day.
Love, beauty: Clerics of this domain are usually not the sort to seek adventures or crusade in their faiths name. Adventuring clerics of this domain may not wear armor but may use protective devices such as rings of protection or bracers of defense.

They have a +2 bonus to resist all charm, dominate, enthrall, fascinate, or suggestion spells or spell-like abilities.

At 4th level they gain the bardic fascinate ability with an effective level equal to their cleric level minus 3.
Magic: Clerics of the gods of magic are usually cloistered clerics (qv.) but may use the following modifications if cloistered clerics are not used in your game.

Clerics of this domain may not wear armor but may use protective devices such as rings of protection or bracers of defense. They fight as magic-users, using the BtH progression for that class. They may use all wands, rods and staves that may be used by clerics or magic-users, and gain access to the following spells:

Level 0: Prestidigitation

Level 1: Armor

Level 3: Arcane sight

Level 5: Minor globe of invulnerability

Level 6: Antimagic shell

Level 7: Globe of invulnerability

Level 9: Mordernkainens disjunction
Mischief: Clerics of the mischief domain tend to be roguish pranksters. They are restricted to the use of light armor, may not use shields, and gain the move silently, hide and pick pockets abilities at level 4, with an effective level equal to their cleric level minus 3. They may also cast the following in addition to their usual spells:

Level 0: Prestidigitation

Level 1: Change self

Level 2: Tashas hideous laughter

Level 8: Ottos irresistible dance
Moon: Clerics of the ever-changing moon are often shapeshifters and may turn or control lycanthropes as a typical cleric turns or controls undead. They never destroy lycanthropes with this ability. The following spells are added to their spell list:

Level 2: Alter self

Level 4: Polymorph

Level 9: Shapechange

Clerics of this domain are restricted to the use of light armor, though they may use all shields.
Peace: Clerics of peace are almost always cloistered clerics (qv.) or non-adventuring clerics. They may not wear armor but may use protective devices such as rings of protection or bracers of defense. They may not cast cause disease, cause blindness/deafness, harm, wither or inflict wounds spells of any sort. To reflect their lack of martial training, clerics of this domain use the BtH progression of magic-users.

To balance this, priests of peace gods may cast sanctuary three times per day, in addition to their usual spell allotment. They may lay on hands, just as a paladin does and add 2 to each die rolled for any cure spell.
Strength: Clerics of this domain are quick to demonstrate their physical prowess through feats of strength. They receive a +1 bonus on all opposed strength checks, add 1 to all unarmed combat damage, and add the strength spell to their spell list. These bonuses replace the weapon training ability of clerics.
Storms: This domain affords its clerics with the ability to predict the weather with near certainty. At first level, clerics of storm gods may predict the weather for the next 8 hours with a wisdom check. At 3rd level, this check allows them to predict the weather for the next 24 hours. At 7th level the prediction covers the next 3 days weather and, at 11th level, they may accurately predict the weather for an entire week.

The following spells are added to their spell list:

Level 3: Call lightning

Level 7: Control weather

Level 9: Storm of vengeance
Sun: Clerics of sun gods must choose a performance skill as one of their background skills, as sun gods are commonly patrons of the arts. They add the following spells to their spell list:

Level 2: Flame blade

Level 7: Sunray

Level 8: Sunburst

Level 9: Chariot of Sustarre
Time: Priests of this domain are usually learned chroniclers of the ages and masters of astronomy. As such, clerics with this domain must have the knowledge (astronomy or history) or profession (clockmaker, embalmer, librarian or scribe) skill. This list can be expanded to include other skills connected with marking the passage of time.

They add the following spells to their spell list:

Level 0: Know direction

Level 3: Haste, slow

Level 8: Temporal stasis

Level 9: Time stop
Travel: Clerics of the travel domain move 15 (3) faster than is usual for a member of their race so long as they are not wearing heavy armor or carrying more than a light load.

They must take a profession related to traveling (teamster, guide, sailor, navigator) as a background skill and are restricted to the use of light armor. They may use any shield.

They add the following spells to their spell list:

Level 0: Know direction

Level 1: Run

Level 4: Dimension door

Level 5: Teleport

Level 7: Teleport without error
War: Priests of war gods gain a +1 bonus to hit with their deitys favored weapon, even if that weapon is not normally allowed by clerics.
Water, oceans: Clerics of this domain must chose a profession or craft skill tied to living off of a body of water as a background skill. They add the following spell to their spell list:

Level 5: Airy water

Remove the following spell from the clerics spell list:

Level 5: Flame strike

They may not conjure fire elementals. All water elementals summoned by these clerics gain 2 additional hit points per hit die.

I concur with the KISS comments.

I made all Clerics, Druids, Monks as well as the NPC Priest Class I am working up, all following the same "generic" pantheon. Together, they are all one big happy "family".

The Gods of my gameworld are all like "Demi-Gods" in a traditional "D&D" gameworld and are limited as to what powers/spells they can give to their followers. So, they all share followers and give powers to all Clerics.

It keeps things simple, explains why there are no speciality priests, since such a priest would be permanently stuck with one single spell, at the very least, and that spell might be so high of a level that the Cleric wouldn't be able to cast it until late in a campaign.

As for evil Clerics. Since the Evil, Dark Gods aren't part of the "generic" pantheon, having been cast down into darkness, in ages past, this isn't an issue. (The Dark Gods are similar to "Demons and Devils" in a traditional "D&D" gameworld.)
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The Grey Elf wrote:
We just imported Domains from the SRD, wholesale, with no changes. Every cleric gets to choose two that relate to their deity's portfolio (with CK approval); they gain the granted ability for those domains, one bonus domain spell per day (chosen from the two lists), and the deity's favored weapon (which is standard for the C&C cleric anyway).

So far it's worked great, hasn't unbalanced the game at all, and above all, is nice and easy.

Any issues with d20 spells that aren't in C&C or with domain powers that might grant a feat or offer some ability that isn't in C&C?
_________________
Trampas Whiteman
---DragonHelm--->
Dragonlance Nexus

Dragonhelm wrote:
Any issues with d20 spells that aren't in C&C or with domain powers that might grant a feat or offer some ability that isn't in C&C?

For powers that grant a feat, they just grant the same in C&C, only it's just a special ability. Spells convert over pretty much seamlessly as-is, and most abilities aren't hard to 'port in without damaging the integrity of the SIEGE engine.

The only place you'd really run into an issue is with AoO's, and I don't think any clerical domain abilities grant stuff that concerns itself with AoO's.

Stuff that grants bonuses to skills, for example, simply grants that bonus to attribute checks in similar situations. So like, for example, a +2 competence bonus to Knowledge (Nature) is simply a +2 bonus to Int checks involving nature, the natural world, plants, and animals.

I just designed a specialty priest for my wife's character. I did some exchanging of abilities (like weapon specializaiton switched for turn undead).

I think specialty priests are called for only if the CK is willing to put the work into building the pantheon and endorsing it within his campaign. Otherwise, it can be a disaster.
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"Size matters not."

-Yoda, Jedi Master

The tricky thing i'm trying to figure out is whether i need a new class or not.

Clerics of Haelyn and Avani are very similar to standard clerics, and very much fit the C&C description of `warrior-priests' (which goes back to the 1st Ed AD&D referring to clerics as being similar to the Knights-Templar or Hospitallers). So, clerics work almost as-is for them.

However, the priests of Ruornil and Eloele do not fit that mold at all. Eloele is the goddess of thieves, and her priests (by core Birthright descriptions) are essentially half-thieves. Entering an up-front combat is entirely against their nature. Not very cleric-like at all. Ruornil, the god of magic, has priests who are half-magicians. No heavy weaponry, arcane magic spells, etc. Again, not at all cleric-like.

Now, it always kind of bugged me that clerics always served as the priests of everyone except nature gods, who have druids. Why are the nature gods so special that they get their very own class? I never liked this dichotomy.

Anyways, i'm just having a hard time deciding which way to go on this. I've already created several new classes (non-priestly), so i have no problem creating new classes, but a new class for every deity would be wasteful, imo. A less combatitive priest class is needed perhaps.

-Fizz

Fizz wrote:
Anyways, i'm just having a hard time deciding which way to go on this. I've already created several new classes (non-priestly), so i have no problem creating new classes, but a new class for every deity would be wasteful, imo. A less combatitive priest class is needed perhaps.

-Fizz

Presenting (again, I think)...
THE CLOISTERED CLERIC (Cleric)

The cleric, as presented in the Players Handbooks, is modeled after medieval warrior priests, such as the Knights Templar or Hospitlars. Most priests, however, lived quiet, monastic lives spent in devotion to and centered on reflection of the mysteries of their faith. Priests were expected to study and teach the precepts of their faith through missionary work and through the creation of sacred texts, spreading their teachings through their words and letters, rather than at the point of a sword.

The cloistered cleric, or friar, usually dwells in isolation from the outside world in a monastery, abbey, or other such structure. We cannot call these characters monks in the C&C game, though that term would be most applicable if we are using Europe as a model for this type of cleric. Cloistered clerics are unskilled in the use of weapons and refrain from melee in all but the direst circumstances. They may not use armor or shields but are allowed to wear rings or cloaks of protection, and bracers of defense.

Multiclassed or dual-classed cloistered clerics may use the arms and armor permitted by their other class without penalty, though no cloistered cleric may multiclass as a fighter or fighter subclass. Dual-classing as a fighter or fighter subclass is permitted however.

EPP Progression: As per The Cleric class

BtH Progression: As per The Rogue class

Prime Requisite: Wisdom

Hit Die: d6

Alignment: Any (lawful tendencies)

Races: Dwarf, elf, gnome, half-elf, halfling, and human

Weapons: Club, dagger, flail (horsemans), hammer (throwing), mace (horsemans), and quarterstaff

Armor: None

Abilities: Cleric spells, decipher script, lore, turn undead
Cleric Spells: A cloistered cleric casts divine spells as any other cleric does. The spells available are listed on the cleric spell list.

Cloistered clerics gain an additional spell of each spell level except their highest permitted spell level. As such, a 1st level cloistered cleric gains an additional 0-level spell while a 7th level cloistered cleric gains an additional 0, 1st, 2nd and 3rd level spell.
Decipher Script (Intelligence): Cloistered clerics may attempt to decipher writing in an unfamiliar language, a message written in an incomplete or archaic font, or a message written in code just as a rogue or bard may.
Lore (Intelligence): Cloistered clerics spend years pouring over religious tomes and historical treatises. With a successful ability check, a cloistered cleric gains or remembers some relevant information about local notable people, a legendary item, a noteworthy place, or any other relevant bit of information, just as a bard does.
Turn Undead (Wisdom): A cloistered cleric has the ability to turn, or even destroy, undead monsters just as a typical cleric does.

CS

Wow very good! I'm copying this now. I've been thinking about all the clerics that don't wonder around whacking things with hammers ALL the time. This IS PERFECT!

I think I'm going to have to start paying you royalties for all your ideas Im using, or will be when I start playing again after my move!
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Fizz wrote:
However, the priests of Ruornil and Eloele do not fit that mold at all. Eloele is the goddess of thieves, and her priests (by core Birthright descriptions) are essentially half-thieves. Entering an up-front combat is entirely against their nature. Not very cleric-like at all. Ruornil, the god of magic, has priests who are half-magicians. No heavy weaponry, arcane magic spells, etc. Again, not at all cleric-like.

-Fizz

For Ruornil and Eloele, I would simply make multiclassing strongly encouraged, respectively with Wizards and Rogues. Plus, they could choose as a special weapon a wizard or rogue's weapon, and use it consistently (e.g. dagger, staff, sword etc.)

Finally, I would use Primes. For Ruornil, clerics would favor Intelligence, while for Eloele clerics would favor Dexterity.

Spells would remain the same for both.

This would give plenty of flavor within the scope of C&C, and without changing any rules.

Cheers,

Antonio

rabindranath72 wrote:
For Ruornil and Eloele, I would simply make multiclassing strongly encouraged, respectively with Wizards and Rogues.

This might be the way to go. In fact, one could even say that priests of Eloele and Ruornil MUST be multiclassed cleric/rogues or cleric/magicians respectively. Similarly, priests of Belinik might be forced to cleric/barbarians, priests of Cuiraecen forced to cleric/fighters. Many possibilities here.

The cloistered cleric is nice, but doesn't exactly fit these particular faiths. It could find a place in Birthright though- it could even be renamed to `monk' since Birthright doesn't have standard monks I'll have to give that some thought.

-Fizz

Well, for the Mage Priest I would just allow them to have access to mage spells and lower their HD to a D6 and keep the previously mentioned armor restrictions. Plus they would also have the ability to use mage items, like SP's of Mystra in FR do.

As for the Thief Clerics I think I would keep them clerics and have them go one of two paths.

Path one concentrates on the sneak thief aspects of the class and religion.

Path 2 concentrates on the sneaking and backstabbing aspects.

Then, keeping the previously mentioned restrictions, I would bump xp requirements by 20% per level and have those who choose the sneak thiev path get treated as having Move silently, hide in shadows, climbing walls, picking pockets, opening locks and disarming traps as class abilities.

Then the path of the "Backstab" get the special attacks plus the ability to hide and move silently as class abilities.

Thats the "rough" on how I would approach it.

The way that Basic D&D did this was simple:

Specialty Priests can either:

Use certain weapons not normally allowed to clerics

OR

Cast spells not normally allowed to clerics.

OR

Gain an ability from another class

OR some generic perk.

In some cases, they could do two of these.

For example, clerics of Odin could use Spears and cast Magic Missile as a 2nd Level spell.

There was some sort of "rogue god" who let his clerics use daggers and move silently as a thief.

Clerics of Thor got +1 STR, and used d8 Hit Dice (like a fighter)
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You are referring to Wrath of the Immortals, IIRC. Well, most of the ideas for Clerics were good, but some were decidedly too much powerful. For example, giving clerics a thief ability is too much, I guess.

The Cleric of Thor is good example from GAZ7 which gives some flavor without giving too much, and without altering the class too much.

After i wrote about multiclassing to create the faiths, it occurred to me that a nature `priest' could be made by multiclassing a cleric and ranger. But that doesn't exactly equal a druid either.

Priests, particularly in 2nd Ed AD&D, were the most varied `class' in the system. Class is a loose term here, because the system was set up so that each priest was effectively it's own class. To do a true conversion of Birthright, one would have to do it that way i think.

But, that is a good chunk of work, and really it's no longer a `cleric'. Not quite sure what i'll do yet.

Anyways, thanks for all the input everyone!

-Fizz

Fizz wrote:
After i wrote about multiclassing to create the faiths, it occurred to me that a nature `priest' could be made by multiclassing a cleric and ranger. But that doesn't exactly equal a druid either.

Priests, particularly in 2nd Ed AD&D, were the most varied `class' in the system. Class is a loose term here, because the system was set up so that each priest was effectively it's own class. To do a true conversion of Birthright, one would have to do it that way i think.

But, that is a good chunk of work, and really it's no longer a `cleric'. Not quite sure what i'll do yet.

Anyways, thanks for all the input everyone!

-Fizz

I treat clerics of Erik as Druids, really. The flavor is already there. Or cleric/ranger, if you prefer. But I would always choose the simpler alternative; besides, druids are already there, and I like to use the most of what I have
In general I am always of the opinion of using what one has at hand, in terms of rules and system, and adapt the setting to the rules. Birthright has a lot of flavor, which I think can be easily ported in C&C by using what the system has: multiclassing, special weapons, secondary skills and quite important, choice of primes.

Going the 2nd edition way would mean a large overhaul of the C&C system (e.g. organising spells into spheres, defining specialty priests etc.) with very little pay-off in terms of increased flavor.

Anyway, if you have any other ideas, please share!

Cheers,

Antonio

Treebore wrote:
Well, for the Mage Priest I would just allow them to have access to mage spells and lower their HD to a D6 and keep the previously mentioned armor restrictions. Plus they would also have the ability to use mage items, like SP's of Mystra in FR do.

As for the Thief Clerics I think I would keep them clerics and have them go one of two paths.

Path one concentrates on the sneak thief aspects of the class and religion.

Path 2 concentrates on the sneaking and backstabbing aspects.

Then, keeping the previously mentioned restrictions, I would bump xp requirements by 20% per level and have those who choose the sneak thiev path get treated as having Move silently, hide in shadows, climbing walls, picking pockets, opening locks and disarming traps as class abilities.

Then the path of the "Backstab" get the special attacks plus the ability to hide and move silently as class abilities.

Thats the "rough" on how I would approach it.

I would not intrude too much into another class "domain" beyond what is allowed by the multiclassing rules. I guess that things can be made much simpler, and still adhere to the Birthright flavor.

Cheers,

Antonio

If one removes the standard cleric and mandates that all faithful worship a specific god, or set of gods, and therefore become "priests," the idea that each can be different is not too bad. That's how I did it... they all share something in common (Wisdom Prime, spellcasting, and the fact they're the "holy men") but the way they act, their abilities, and other things are vastly different. Many times specialty clerics are barely more than a superficial difference, and other times they are extremely overpowered... but, in C&C, it works best to give them different XP charts, and not the 2E way of one cleric chart to rule them all (reminds me of the paladin [one of the Mulhorand FR gods] specialty cleric that advanced as fast as a cleric, which is second only to thief, and much better than a real paladin... or the cleric/wizard [Isis, I believe] that got practically everything [armor, weapons, both types of spells, and spell immunities...] all for the XP of a cleric.)

If, however, you want to keep one standard XP chart for all clerics... then it realy depends on what you're doing to make them different. In many of these cases, there are few mechanical changes, leaving the "specialty" to the roleplaying of the player. Otherwise, I would suggest "balance" by cost-ratio.

The Grey Elf wrote:
We just imported Domains from the SRD, wholesale, with no changes. Every cleric gets to choose two that relate to their deity's portfolio (with CK approval); they gain the granted ability for those domains, one bonus domain spell per day (chosen from the two lists), and the deity's favored weapon (which is standard for the C&C cleric anyway).

So far it's worked great, hasn't unbalanced the game at all, and above all, is nice and easy.

I've done the same thing. It works splendidly.
_________________
AD&D, Amish Dungeons & Dragons.

"Galstaff, ye are in a cornfield, when a moustachioed man approaches. What say ye?"

"I shun him."

-----

"Knowledge, logic, reason, and common sense serve better than a dozen rule books."

-- E. Gary Gygax

serleran wrote:
but, in C&C, it works best to give them different XP charts, and not the 2E way of one cleric chart to rule them all (reminds me of the paladin

Yes, i agree. The difficulty is figuring what those XP values should be. This of course will be much easier when the CKG is released.

-Fizz

Zudrak wrote:
I've done the same thing. It works splendidly.

Oh, i'm sure that can work. But since Birthright was built for 2nd Ed AD&D, the faiths are much more well defined than the bit-of-frosting treatment that 3E does to the cleric. Ideally, i'd like to retain that high level of distinctiveness between the faiths.

-Fizz

Zudrak wrote:
I've done the same thing. It works splendidly.

You know, Im glad to hear that. Having two people say it works out makes me feel so much better.

I like the idea of domains, though I dont know if thats enough to make a specialty priest. Since I run Dragonlance games, though, I noticed that not too many domains duplicated from deity to deity, so that also allows for greater customization. What I may do is use spells known and have a single domain added to that, ala the DL mystic.

Last night, I pulled out my Faiths and Avatars book from Forgotten Realms. I wanted to refresh myself on how they handled specialty priests. Really, a lot of it didnt seem to be anything more than some of the basics of 3e and C&C rules anyway. So I figured that Id just create a document with some fluff items (i.e. colors, alignments, favored weapon, etc.).
_________________
Trampas Whiteman
---DragonHelm--->
Dragonlance Nexus

Dragonhelm wrote:
You know, Im glad to hear that. Having two people say it works out makes me feel so much better.

I like the idea of domains, though I dont know if thats enough to make a specialty priest. Since I run Dragonlance games, though, I noticed that not too many domains duplicated from deity to deity, so that also allows for greater customization. What I may do is use spells known and have a single domain added to that, ala the DL mystic.

Last night, I pulled out my Faiths and Avatars book from Forgotten Realms. I wanted to refresh myself on how they handled specialty priests. Really, a lot of it didnt seem to be anything more than some of the basics of 3e and C&C rules anyway. So I figured that Id just create a document with some fluff items (i.e. colors, alignments, favored weapon, etc.).

I CK in Greyhawk, but we only get to play sparingly, so I've only CK'd two clerics -- one of Heironeous and one of Moradin. I am open to customization of the class by my players, on a case by case basis. If they convince me of a certain adjustment to a domain or whatever to fit their PC, then I let it stand. It's about fun and remaining true to the original spirit of RPG's -- let the imagination(s) rule the game while the rules and dice are merely guides to the game.
_________________
AD&D, Amish Dungeons & Dragons.

"Galstaff, ye are in a cornfield, when a moustachioed man approaches. What say ye?"

"I shun him."

-----

"Knowledge, logic, reason, and common sense serve better than a dozen rule books."

-- E. Gary Gygax

I recently got talked into having the levels beyond 9th (IE level 10 and above) allow for Prestige Classes from 3E. Only the Paladin has done it (Inquisitor) and the Ranger is thinking about it.

Anyways, I am thinking that this would also be a good way to have "specialty Priests" actually be "special", meaning rare, plus very powerful and relatively unique.

Plus I would have to increase the xp requirements as well, just like in 2E.

Unfortunately PrC's are not equally powerful, so I will have to decide xp costs on a case by case basis, just like I did for the Paladins Inquisitor powers. Which tacked ona 50,000 xp per level cost. So he will need 350,000 xp per level to level up.

Part of the reason his xp cost is so high is that he got clerical spellcasting ability added in. Both because he wanted it, plus it helps with something I want to do. Its the same spellcasting progression as another PrC, whose name I am forgetting right now, that is very abbreviated, but gives access to 9th level spells by the 10th level of the PrC.

So that is the biggest reason for the 50,000 xp cost.

Fizz wrote:
Now, it always kind of bugged me that clerics always served as the priests of everyone except nature gods, who have druids. Why are the nature gods so special that they get their very own class? I never liked this dichotomy.

Druids are just specialty priests done right. I can see the frustration, though. I've personally never seen much point to the whole wizard/illusionist separation, especially since illusionists always struck me as sucky wizards.

Furthermore, such separations simply beg the question. What if I want to play a summoner or a necromancer? Am I just supposed to take the wizard class? Why then does the person who wants to play the illusionist get a different class? Same for clerics and druids. Why, as you ask, is a nature god so special?

And really, they're not. The archetypes are largely arbitrary distinctions. If I want to use magic and turn into an animal, I get a separate class. But if I want to play someone who uses a sword, wears armor and casts magic spells without any religious reasons I have to multiclass as a fighter/wizard, and I'm not actually allowed to wear armor at all. Why is that fair?

So the question is really, where do you personally care to draw those distinctions? More specifically, how important to you is that distinction in the rules? Because that's all it is. At what point does "flavor" become different enough that it needs separate rules? D&D 3.5 chose to make the sorcerer a different class from the wizard, because their magic is "innate" while the wizard's is "learned." C&C apparently feels a knight requires different rules than a fighter or a paladin. D&D-based games in general can't ever seem to get away from the idea of the paladin and ranger being separate from a fighter/cleric or fighter/rogue.

If it's important enough to you that the faiths be separate, start divvying up rules for them. If they don't feel like "clerics" any longer, get rid of the cleric. That word only has the significance you choose to give it. Now ideally there'd be an individual class for everything, but that is a lot of work. So...

A good place to start is by stripping off certain abilities. Turn undead is a great candidate, as is the ability to wear heavy armor. No reason all priests should be these martial people. Fill those gaps with things more representative of a deity. Also consider just tacking abilities on in general. Ask yourself, is it really going to "unbalance" your game?

Also, don't fixate on the cleric. There's no good reason why a priest of an arcane god--for example--can't simply be a wizard with a changed Prime and a "divine" ability or two tacked on, as opposed to attempting to overhaul the cleric class entirely. Rearrange the wizard spell list to taste.

While it's appealing on the surface, I wouldn't recommend mandatory multiclassing. You're essentially penalizing the player for choosing to take an active interest in the setting. Especially if the generic cleric is out.

Just some thoughts to chew on. At the end of the day, do what you gotta do.

Quote:
The difficulty is figuring what those XP values should be. This of course will be much easier when the CKG is released.

Naw, I found it easier to not wait. Then again, it was a "challenge" and something that would let me tweak with the game on a fundamental level... so I had to do the deconstruction. That and I was growing tired of people wanting to see it.

serleran wrote:
Naw, I found it easier to not wait. Then again, it was a "challenge" and something that would let me tweak with the game on a fundamental level... so I had to do the deconstruction. That and I was growing tired of people wanting to see it.

Well, i have not seen it .
-Fizz