fighter tweaks

[Fizz]

Hi all-

I've been looking at the fighter lately, and thought of a couple things i'd like to do.

I've never been fond of the fighter's combat dominance ability. It seems so... arbitrary... and never made much physical sense. I was thinking of swapping it for the barbarians combat sense ability. I think it's a logical addition to the fighter's abilities, since he's the supposedly the best overall combatant.

How much of a fair trade-off is this? Would i need to alter the XP table dramatically?

Second, i'd like to expand on his extra attacks. Instead of immediately jumping to 2 attacks per round, i was thinking of an extra half-attack at every 5th level. So, at 5th, he makes 3 attacks every 2 rounds. 2 attacks at 10th, 5 every 2 at 15th, and 3 at 20th. I think this is a smoother more natural progression.

How much impact would this have? That is, is it worth adjusting the XP tables?

I'm sure the CKG would have rules on how to do this, but it's not out yet...
-Fizz

[serleran]

There is a 400 XP different between CD and CS, in the fighter's favor, so you'd need to reduce the XP by that amount. However, extra attack costs 10000, so giving it earlier (even if its not every round) should be similar... I'd say at least half, so when it kicks in, the chart would increase by 5000, doubling each level afterward, as normal. So, yeah... by the current progression, it'd be a XP chart overhaul, if you want it to be "official." Otherwise, you could just make the changes and say "looks good enough." I did that for my Doldrums fighter class.

[Beyondthebreach]

The only thing is . . . Combat Dominance is a basically worthless ability, is it not? I mean, am I wrong . . . is there anyone out there who thinks that Combat Dominance is worth anything?

It's just an adaption of a footnote AD&D rule whose only purpose seemed to be to allow oddball low-level monsters encounters to be resolved quickly so that the main plot line could be continued . . .

C&C doesn't do much more with it . . . please, 1 HD monsters who use d6 or less . . . but only after the Fighter is 4th level . . .
Give 'em that Combat Sense and don't sweat it, I say!

[StealthSuitStanley]

I agree that the combat dominance doesn't seem to be that exceptional. And the simple fact that it costs 400 xp LESS than Combat senses, which I think is a reasonably good ability, shows how unexceptional it really is.

I say give them the combat sense, AND the extra 1/2 attack every 5 levels.
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[Omote]

While CD is not the best ability, it works well for me becuase I have thrown lots of goblins and kobolds at a 6th - 7th level party.

............................................Omote

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[gideon_thorne]

I give combat dominance to all warrior types at first level.

Fighters get an extra attack at 7th and 10th level.

Weapons Mastery from the Mentzer sets can be bought by all classes.
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Peter Bradley

[DangerDwarf]

Yeah, combat dominance is kinda lame.

Goblins and kobolds are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head that it is useful for.

And thats not very useful.

[DangerDwarf]

StealthSuitStanley wrote:
And the simple fact that it costs 400 xp LESS than Combat senses

Actually, isn't he saying its worth 400 more than CS?

Thats crazy.

[gideon_thorne]

DangerDwarf wrote:
Yeah, combat dominance is kinda lame.

Goblins and kobolds are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head that it is useful for.

And thats not very useful.

Course, the solution is to also increase the affected HD, for fighters, ever 5-6 levels as well. Makes the ability a bit more useful. ^_^
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Peter Bradley

[DangerDwarf]

gideon_thorne wrote:
Course, the solution is to also increase the affected HD, for fighters, ever 5-6 levels as well. Makes the ability a bit more useful. ^_^

I'm not sure how useful it would be to increase the HD type every few levels. For example, increasing it to d8 at 9th level means yeah he could now use Combat Dominance against a 1HD orc, but in 1 more level he'll have a 2nd attack to use against a foe regardless of HD.

Now, I understand that it sort of serves as a half-way point for multiple attacks, allowing a fighter of 4th-9th level to make multiple attacks in certain circumstances. But it just seems too specific. I wouldn't see any balance issue in removing the d6 requirement and leaving it just at 1HD.

Then, as the fighter progresses, each time he gets yet another CD attack (8th, 14th, etc) increasing the HD to 2, then 3, etc.

[serleran]

Well, technically, Combat Dominance costs 500, as its gained "out of level" which is to say... it is not given at first. Combat Senses has an initial cost of 100 (given at 1st) but never improves, yet doubles in "value" each level. So, to straight compare them, we do this:

CD (gained at fourth) = 500 XP

CS (total cost at fourth) = 100 + 200 + 300 + 400 = 1000

So, technically, if one were to replace CD with CS, one would need to increase the XP chart by 500, doubling thereafter as normal. My mistake.

[gideon_thorne]

DangerDwarf wrote:
Now, I understand that it sort of serves as a half-way point for multiple attacks, allowing a fighter of 4th-9th level to make multiple attacks in certain circumstances. But it just seems too specific. I wouldn't see any balance issue in removing the d6 requirement and leaving it just at 1HD.

Then, as the fighter progresses, each time he gets yet another CD attack (8th, 14th, etc) increasing the HD to 2, then 3, etc.

*smiles* THat works too. In any case, it really ought to start out at first level, and simply switch Weapon Spec to 4th.
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Peter Bradley

[Fizz]

serleran wrote:
So, technically, if one were to replace CD with CS, one would need to increase the XP chart by 500, doubling thereafter as normal. My mistake.

All this stuff is going to be covered in the CKG right? Not only have i designed several new classes for my own campaign, but several of the existing ones get tweaked. Ideally i'd like them all to be as `official' as possible.

-Fizz

[serleran]

I dunno. Its been mentioned, but the contents are out of my hands. I am fairly confident that some class tweaking will be covered, but the manner of that is still known to those-who-aren't-me.

[gideon_thorne]

Fizz wrote:
All this stuff is going to be covered in the CKG right? Not only have i designed several new classes for my own campaign, but several of the existing ones get tweaked. Ideally i'd like them all to be as `official' as possible.

-Fizz

As Serleran mentioned, its likely.

But, for my own part, I am so far away from 'official' in my own personal campaign ideas, it might as well be a different game system.
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Peter Bradley

[DangerDwarf]

gideon_thorne wrote:
But, for my own part, I am so far away from 'official' in my own personal campaign ideas, it might as well be a different game system.

Heretic!

I mean...

Thats the best thing about C&C. So easily Customizable.

[gideon_thorne]

DangerDwarf wrote:
Heretic!

In so many ways. I should form a club.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Julian Grimm]

I dropped the D6 or under part if it and also allowed fighters to pick up new weapon specializations as well. I don't have my full notes with me but I know I added a few things to them along these lines.
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[DangerDwarf]

gideon_thorne wrote:
I should form a club.

And then we can beat you with it.

For being a heretic.

Blasphemer too.

Oh....a SOCIAL club.

Nevermind. I got nuthin'.

[Maliki]

None of my players like this ability, my solution was to replace CD with 3E's cleave at 4th level then great cleave at 12th level.
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[serleran]

I did a sort of cleave ability for the Doldrums fighter, but I do see a reason to keep CD as is, for other types, like dwarfs, who are traditional anti-1HD killers.

[Ghost_Face]

Someone on another board suggested(since they technically don't exist in C&C) letting a Ftr score an auto-max damage critical on a natural 20 in place of Combat Dominance/ or even with it. What do you guys think?

[Fizz]

serleran wrote:
I did a sort of cleave ability for the Doldrums fighter, but I do see a reason to keep CD as is, for other types, like dwarfs, who are traditional anti-1HD killers.

You know, i thought of that, but i never liked Cleave much either, in 3E form or otherwise. I mean, it just never made much physical sense to me.

-Fizz

[serleran]

Its all about having the oomph to cut a critter in twain, usually from the side, and having enough momentum to slice his buddy who was standing right next to him. Its a classic thing from Hong Kong Action Theatre and other types of action flicks. In my games, it can only be done with a large weapon (not sure I wrote that in...) since its rahter hard to kill one dude with a dagger and strike on through to the other side [/end channeling The Doors.] Though, I don't really see a prob with an arrow shooting through someone, and hitting another, so I'd have no issues with that, either.

So, I can picture how it works, but agree that in general, it doesn't make an awful lot of sense... which is why my version reduced the damage dealt to the "buddy." [/ends channeling Pauly Shore]

[Fizz]

serleran wrote:
Its all about having the oomph to cut a critter in twain, usually from the side, and having enough momentum to slice his buddy who was standing right next to him Though, I don't really see a prob with an arrow shooting through someone, and hitting another, so I'd have no issues with that, either.

OK, i could see it then with a slashing weapon only, and only if they're side-by-side. Piercing would make sense if the second target is behind the other and your weapon is long enough (or an arrow). But a blunt weapon wouldn't make much sense at all.

Ey... still isn't my cup o' tea. I'll steer clear of those 3E'isms.
-Fizz

[serleran]

I just think its a neat effect, in the right circumstances, and gives the fighter a chance to kill two birds at once. It certainly isn't effective against anything very big. Course, if its not that effective... it might as well not exist, too. Hmmm.....

[DangerDwarf]

serleran wrote:
Its all about having the oomph to cut a critter in twain, usually from the side, and having enough momentum to slice his buddy who was standing right next to him.

In my reckoning, I don't think it requires actually physically cleaving the 1st opponent in half.

Lash out with your blade, lashing ol' guy across the throat as you do. As he falls back, the momentum of your swing carries the weapon into his homeboy.

[serleran]

Aye, there are different ways to interpret, but the goriest is the one I like the most.

[Omote]

serleran wrote:
Aye, there are different ways to interpret, but the goriest is the one I like the most.

Warhammer Fantasy style, perhaps? Can we say critical kill chart from 1E WFRP?

.............................................Omote

FPQ
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[serleran]

Have some. They are not "family friendly" though, and so, cannot be official... hehe, or so I hear.

When you can crush testes with a shot from a maul... that's just gotta hurt! Not to mention ruining singing forever... unless you like the Vienna Choir.