Non-monks deflecting arrows

[Fizz]

Hi all-

Something about the monk's ability to deflect arrows bothers me.

The ability functions as a dexterity check. Add one's level to your check. But, monks can't do it at 1st level. What if they want to try anyways? And what if another character wants to try this? In that case, they wouldn't add their level. But the fact that monks don't get the ability until 2nd implies they can't do it all. So how could a non-monk do it at all?

See, the way it works doesn't seem to be in synch with how other abilities work. It's a dexterity check, yet one that not everyone can do? Mechanically there is something fishy here.

Thoughts?

-Fizz

[Nelzie]

The monk can try that at first level.

The monk makes a Dex check, which may or may not be Prime and is unable to add his/her level to the roll.

After 2nd level, the monk is able to use that ability as a Prime (whether Dex is Prime or not) and gets to add his/her level to the roll as well.

Any other character can always try it and they never get to add their level to it. (You never add your level to things that aren't class specific or has yet to be included as a "Class Skill".)

I don't see any problem.
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[Fizz]

Nelzie wrote:
The monk can try that at first level.

It is listed as an ability gained at 2nd level.

Quote:
The monk makes a Dex check, which may or may not be Prime and is unable to add his/her level to the roll.

After 2nd level, the monk is able to use that ability as a Prime (whether Dex is Prime or not) and gets to add his/her level to the roll as well.

Um, where does it say that? I don't have the book in front of me, but i'm pretty sure i'd have remembered if it mentioned Primes. It just says the monk makes a Dexterity check.

Quote:
Any other character can always try it and they never get to add their level to it. (You never add your level to things that aren't class specific or has yet to be included as a "Class Skill".)

I don't see any problem.

The problem is that the ability is granted at 2nd level. That means they can't do it at 1st level, in the same way a Paladin can't Smite until 9th level. Yet, it's a dexterity check, which should be possible at any level.

-Fizz

[serleran]

Quote:
The problem is that the ability is granted at 2nd level. That means they can't do it at 1st level, in the same way a Paladin can't Smite until 9th level. Yet, it's a dexterity check, which should be possible at any level.

No, it means that the monk can't do it until they are 2nd level, much like a wizard cannot cast a 9th level spell at 1st. The simple fact that an attribute is associated does not mean "can try anytime." It means: this is how you determine if the try was successful. If you want to allow the monk to do it at 1st level, you'd have to come up with a houserule to do that, just as you would for any other class that you wanted to let try it; in all cases, staying as close to the book as possible would mean none of them get level added, as none of them would "have" the ability (the monk would be "in training.")

Similar issues appear for other abilities, like the ranger's improvement in tracking -- what, they can't determine specifics until 5th level? Well, technically, yes... but, a penalty can be given to allow them to before that. Other classes can't ever do it, though they may still try to track in general.

[gideon_thorne]

The monk gets this as a class ability. If he selects dex as a prime he uses it as a prime ability, if not its rolled as a non prime ability.

Whether other classes get to try or not is, as it says under ability checks, up to the CK. ^_^
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Fizz]

serleran wrote:
The simple fact that an attribute is associated does not mean "can try anytime." It means: this is how you determine if the try was successful.

Hmmm... i guess it's how the ability description is phrased that confused me. It says `makes a dexterity check'. And i presume that any character can make a dexterity check. Now if it'd been phrased like `make a special kind of dexterity save', then i'd have thought differently.

Quote:
If you want to allow the monk to do it at 1st level, you'd have to come up with a houserule to do that, just as you would for any other class that you wanted to let try it;

I'm a big fan of letting the characters try almost anything. I mean, there's no physicial or magical reason one couldn't try to do it.

But, no i wouldn't allow them to add their level (unless they actually are a monk, of course).

-Fizz

[Breakdaddy]

Yeah, it's not a big deal. The way I do things like this is just like most of the other. Anyone can try it at anytime, but unless a level 2 or greater monk, must make a dex check without the benefit of adding their level to the roll. This seems reasonable but I would also be looking for an explanation from the Player explaining why his character would have the ability or foresight to go trying to knock arrows out of the air mid-flight instead of trying to take cover. Monks are specially trained to do this, but most others have no techniques at their disposal to block or high kick arrows from the air. I *can* see a non monk character with a shield making this roll to represent the shield coming up at the last moment.

[DangerDwarf]

Fizz wrote:
I'm a big fan of letting the characters try almost anything. I mean, there's no physicial or magical reason one couldn't try to do it.

But, no i wouldn't allow them to add their level (unless they actually are a monk, of course).

I'm a fan of letting my players try just about anything too. When it comes to intruding on areas of other classes, they of course don't get to add their level to the roll and I generally impose a higher CL for success as well.

In an instance like deflecting arrows in my game, if you're not a monk AND you don't have DEX as a prime? Don't bother rolling, you'll fail. If you do have DEX as a prime you *might* succeed, but more than likely you'll just step into the projectile.

[gideon_thorne]

If one feels a fighter or other dexterous character out to have a chance at deflecting arrows with a weapon, why not use dex in a different way? The dex bonus becomes something one can add to a 'to hit' roll vs a moving missile.

Roll 'to hit' and one can ping the arrow out of the way.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Lurker]

I've never been a huge fan of the btb monk. It's just a flavor thing for me...

As to the deflecting I fall in the camp of give it a try & good luck! High dex is a must to even have a real chance. Same with a fighter or thief using a weapon to deflect. If they have a shield (there is a thread around about making shield more helpful & realistic) that helps ALOT.
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