Troll Lord Games

...

A good start would be the stuff TLG has already announced, though I'm not really sure I want to see some of it, honestly (like monster attributes.) Otherwise... umm, not really sure, since the book is supposed to be a guide, and not a rules source, so... just some better explanations of the SIEGE Engine and how to use it. That's probably the best thing the book could have.

Annnounced :

* There are variations on the standard classes, new classes and options for creating new classes.

* Alignment is discussed and variations on alignment use, including dispensing with it altogether, are presented.

* The attribute system is broken down and the SIEGE engine examined in detail allowing the development of many variations and levels of complexity without changing the basic mechanic.

* Multi-classing and dual classing options are presented.

* Non-player characters and 0-level characters are examined.

* Monster development and attribute association are presented. Monster hit dice variation is discussed. As well, monster class development is presented with examples and samples abounding.

* Dungeon design and their ecology are discussed. Towns, cities, regions and their population are examined.

* Rules for large scale warfare are presented.

* Genre rules are discussed and presented including pulp, science fiction and horror (though not romance).

What else ?

- Psionics (more-or les compatible with xD&Dx)

- Immortals / gods, and how to become one of them

- Plane travel (and snakes ?)

What do I want to see in the CKG?

Hrmmmm....

Not too sure.

I know what I DON'T want to see in it though.

Troll porn.

DangerDwarf wrote:
What do I want to see in the CKG?

Hrmmmm....

Not too sure.

I know what I DON'T want to see in it though.

Troll porn.

Youre missing out, chief. Last game Steve whipped out the Troll porn and we had a damned fine time!!!!

Breakdaddy wrote:
Youre missing out, chief. Last game Steve whipped out the Troll porn and we had a damned fine time!!!!

I guess if you have enough booze in ya...

The greasy green skin, the severed heads of the unwitting teasingly covering her....

nah...

As i've subtley hinted before, i'm very keen for the CKG.

I'm one who likes to tweak. So i'm most interested in the variant classes and new classes, and how `attribute association' for monsters is presented. (The latter may be related to a discussion we've recently had on these boards.)

I'm also curious if they'll have variant rules for other key game mechanics- combat, spellcasting, etc.

-Fizz

They seem to have hit all the high points with the current list, as the interaction between class definition and the siege mechanic is the heart of the game. Incorporating a discussion of how monsters fit into that scheme seems natural.

I wonder if alignment considerations couldn't somehow be given the siege treatment? I know, the first thing to come to mind is probably the Comeliness attribute, and no one wants to go down that road ... but what if it was handled in much the same way as Pendragon passions? I'm just thinking as I type here (always dangerous) ... but what if each of the four attribute poles had a matching "attribute" score, and you could roll against them to get a bonus when appropriate to the type of feat you were attempting? Hmm ... DC is standard ... do you add your level? Which is Prime? Okay, the polar opposites of the alignments (Good/Evil, Lawful/Chaotic) would be 20-sums like in Pendragon, so that if you had 14 in Good you would 6 in Evil. Perhaps you only add your level if attempting something in the larger number's side? Maybe certain classes particularly associated with an alignment (Clerics, Paladins, etc.) would get a Prime?

Well, enough of that!

Being a wargamer, I'm very interested in the mass warfare rules. Do we know anything about them?

Cheers

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Do we know anything about them?

Only that they are in development. No specifics can be given. I developed morale rules for monsters, but I doubt that'll be expanded to mass combat (though it could be.) Oh, and I know they're supposed to cover multiple types of combat (ie, naval, aerial, siege...) but have not seen them.

Again, though, this is supposed to be a GUIDE, and not a RULEbook. There is a major difference in the two.

i'd like to see some guidelines about character skills - maybe a development of gygax stuff but without xp costs...perhaps this could be a componant of the SIEGE discussion

I did think of something I want to see:

Training. Not to get abilities outside of class, though that might be a good way to allow "customization" (I have a system already, but mine is mine and not for "everyone.") Costs, length of time, difficulty (based on populace/location) and the like, from before-level 1 through "name level." All classes should have apprenticeships, allowing them to start at level zero. Heck, expand it to NPCs and we've got something... like, NPCs get +1 for every 50 years of life in the occupation (I know that's low, but its an example...) but that might be based on race rather than actual age, since elfs live soooo damn long.

And of course, it needs to not be "rules" per se, but means to provoke some particular playing style, like the "meek who inherited the earth." Hehe.

Yes, I agree on the training guidelines - maybe with some variable parameters to allow for variability assumed in the degree of training necessary.

How about guidelines on finding, hiring, and maintaining both "henchmen" and "hirelings"? These rules really gave AD&D a lot of depth, and I would love to see them updated and included for C&C. The Knight class practically cries out for rules like this.

Things I want :

1) As above, me too want a section on henchmen and hirelings.

2) Really needed : lots of table with Challenge Levels for doing various things. For example : what's the CL to climb a ruined wall, or a smooth wall. More important : what's the CL for moving/toppling a statue according to its size and material.

3) Odd, yet useful, information such as the Encumbrance of a PC turned to stone if his companion must carry it.

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2) Really needed : lots of table with Challenge Levels for doing various things. For example : what's the CL to climb a ruined wall, or a smooth wall. More important : what's the CL for moving/toppling a statue according to its size and material.

CL for "ruined wall" -- depends on handholds, their displacement, what the wall is made of, whether a rope is being used, the state of ruin (ie, how atrophied is the wall; otherwise the "strength support") and many other factors, like weather, growths, lighting, fatigue of the climber, height to be climbed, etc...

As for moving/toppling... that's a matter of leverage, strength, and the object's weight. Material is relatively unimportant, save for a few instances (trying to crowbar something made of paper, or wood, for example -- it might break the object well before moving it.) There is already a formula for what a PC can move (the military press) and a CK can just add in the values for others assisting, with a multiplier for leverage. So, I guess, if anything, something like "mithril weighs 125 pounds / foot" or "gold weighs 250 pounds / half-foot" (just examples - not intended to be real-world accurate) would be all that's needed, assuming its solid, and not just plated.

All this would turn the "CL tables" into Rolemaster, and well beyond the "simple" nature of C&C.

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3) Odd, yet useful, information such as the Encumbrance of a PC turned to stone if his companion must carry it.

This would just be a formula to determine EV from weight/bulk. For example: a PC turned to stone would triple in weight, but divide by 60 for EV, and add +2 (small), 4 (medium), or 8 (large). So, if you have a halfling that weighs 100 pounds, that becomes 300 /60 = 5 +2 = 7 EV.

I can see this being useful, but there are so many ad hoc factors (ie, a small table might be as encumbering as a medium size chair, because its awkward to carry...) so those factors are still out-of-listing.

I dunno, I guess there is some use... but a lot of it is the kind of stuff that cannot be quantified into every conceivable possibility. That's probably good, since its a guideline... so, hmmm.... maybe just some very basic stuff?

Also forgot to add:

An index at the end of the book!

Serleran said well with the Training part, but I also want it to encompass daily work on an area. Then I wanted some other things, like different spellcasting system, though it need not be cumbersome and alien to the spells we already have (much like Midnight heh).

A skill system would be good, but the more I think about it the more i want it to be something the Siege engine already is for me...
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"We cannot live only for ourselves. A thousand fibers connect us with our fellow men; and among those fibers, as sympathetic threads, our actions run as causes, and they come back to us as effects." - Attributed to Herman Melville.

I think a skill system would work best as "either you have it or you don't" type thing, to be honest, sort of like the current class abilities work. Sure, you can try some of the skill things without having been taught, but you don't get level, and the like if the skill has such features... otherwise, you do, and can do any of the "basic" stuff.

For example: if you have the "forge" skill, you can make anything that would require metalworking, if you have the time, place, and material. Making something "expert" would require a roll. Those who don't have the skill can make stuff, but it takes three times as long and always requires a roll. Difficulties should be based on what the item provides, so for armor, the difficulty is the AC adjustment +5, for weapons, its the maximum damage of a single die, and for other things... its just 1+.

No real need to get all deep in this department.

Just my opinion.

Nothing in particular, but I'll be interested in most everything announced or mentioned in the development forum!
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Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

Another big thing i'd like to see is a breakdown of class abilities and their XP cost. I like making customized classes and such a tool would be very useful.

-Fizz

I'm fairly confident that some means to class building will be in the CKG. It probably won't be the same thing as what goes into The Adventurer's Backpack (unless that project has been canned), but something will be there. Such a thing, if done right could allow a classless character system, in fact, which I think is good (and needed) for certain types of genres... especially horror where most people are "ordinary" but have specific knowledges/abilities that make them "targets" (read, PCs.)

serleran wrote:
I'm fairly confident that some means to class building will be in the CKG.

Actually, i had assumed the Class Deconstruction that you had figured out (didn't you Ser?) was going to be in it.

-Fizz

I did a version, yes, but Davis has the actual one, and he's the one deciding what goes in, and what doesn't. Not me. I have absolutely no content control making decisions, on any project... even those of a purely monstrous nature, like M&T II or whatever. However, Davis has graciously stated my breakdown is "near exact" for what that's worth, but it doesn't mean my rendition will go in, or if his will... or if it'll take the form of something else, like "ability swapping" as opposed to pure XP-based "costs." I dunno, nor could I say if I did.

I wish I could say otherwise, to be honest, but while I'm a "Troll" I'm not a "Troll Lord," I guess.

I definitely want to see some skills/options.

Howzabout...

Some clear examples (especially for beginning RP-ers) of how to use the SIEGE engine for achieving feat-like effects. Just in order to inspire them, to use the system creatively and/or spectacularly.

mrswing wrote:
Some clear examples (especially for beginning RP-ers) of how to use the SIEGE engine for achieving feat-like effects. Just in order to inspire them, to use the system creatively and/or spectacularly.

Hmmm... someone is still stuck in a 3E mindset... Must fix this.
I daresay the PH already covers this pretty well in the 'Using Attribute Checks in Your Game' section.

Remember, there is nothing preventing a character from trying just about anything. Try that whirlwind attack! Try that bull rush! All the CK needs to do is determine the CL.

-Fizz

I think the idea of providing guidelines for attemting feat like effects with the siege engine would be desirable - to show the way to creative CK'ing and to help those hankering after feats for their characters to see that they can try anything...this would form a logical part of any discussion material on running combats beyond roll to hit and damage routines.

Mythago wrote:
I think the idea of providing guidelines for attemting feat like effects with the siege engine would be desirable - to show the way to creative CK'ing and to help those hankering after feats for their characters to see that they can try anything...this would form a logical part of any discussion material on running combats beyond roll to hit and damage routines.

The most effective way I handle feat like actions is to use the opponenets HD/Level as the CL modifier.

Treebore wrote:
I think the idea of providing guidelines for attemting feat like effects with the siege engine would be desirable - to show the way to creative CK'ing and to help those hankering after feats for their characters to see that they can try anything...this would form a logical part of any discussion material on running combats beyond roll to hit and damage routines.

Though you know, i've been letting my players try crazy "feat-like" things long before 3E ever existed.

Case in point, whirlwind attack. The character was surrounded by skeletons. He reasoned to me that he could take one big swinging strike with his mace to wipe them all out. I let him make a single attack, and applied that roll to each skeleton with a successive -2 (or was it -3) on each skeleton. He wiped out 4 of them.

Another- the party cleric "bullrushed" a guardian daemon over a cliff. In another, he tackled and head-butted a hell hound. I just applied the appropriate rules as needed. I think the PH section on using attributes illustrates these kinds of things nicely.

I think it's up to the player to be creative. That's part of the fun. Don't let the rules determine what you can and can't do- that's the beauty of the Siege Engine. Make your CK work for you.
-Fizz

Treebore wrote:
The most effective way I handle feat like actions is to use the opponenets HD/Level as the CL modifier.

Agreed, but examples are helpful...
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Emryys wrote:
Agreed, but examples are helpful...

OK, last night I was running Fingers of the Forsaken Hand and they were fighting the 13 HD Bodak. They were attempting some "quick draw" type actions, getting off an extra attack, and one or two other things. So the CL for everything they attempted was 1 3 (thirteen). When I had the Bodak attempt some "special moves" its CL was 8, 9, or ten, dependent on which character it was against.

They didn't succeed very often, since they only get to add their BtH value to their roll. However it added to the tension and excitement of the encounter.

The Runemark Druid wanted to use a "metamagic action" to maximize the damage of a spell they were throwing. That isn't against anyone, just channeling the power of the spell. So I decided to treat the spell like a 5th level spell and the 8th level Runemark/Druid it was a CL 5 (due to maximizing a third level spell), and for purposes of casting spells the spellcaster gets to add their HD instead of their BtH. So it was a TN 17 with a +8 to their roll. So success is on a 9 or better. She rolled a 2. Spell failed to go off.
Thats how I handle the most frequently arising situations.