M&T vs. 3.5 DMG Magic Items

[Expatriorc]

Sorry in advance if this has already been discussed...

Why the discrepancy between treasure value in M&T and AD&D 3.5? For example, a Wand of Magic Missile is listed at 12,250 "GP value" in the M&T but only 750gp in the DMG. Or is "GP Value" not the actual market price? Can somone please clue me in?

So does this mean if I'm converting any 3.5 modules to C&C I need to adjust treasure as well? What is the general rule people use?

Thanks!

[Treebore]

Expatriorc wrote:
Sorry in advance if this has already been discussed...

Why the discrepancy between treasure value in M&T and AD&D 3.5? For example, a Wand of Magic Missile is listed at 12,250 "GP value" in the M&T but only 750gp in the DMG. Or is "GP Value" not the actual market price? Can somone please clue me in?

So does this mean if I'm converting any 3.5 modules to C&C I need to adjust treasure as well? What is the general rule people use?

Thanks!

Read what it takes to make items in C&C. Much higher level requirements, etc... So that alone justifies a higher cost. Your looking at 9th or 12th level minimum for making items.

Plus C&C just wants to be "old school" in item pricing.

There is nothing wrong with pricing how 3E does it. C&C is all about doing things how you like. So if your comfortable with, and like 3E's methodology, than keep it.

As for XP's, such rules considerations aren't as fine tuned as 3E is, even though it would be better/fairer/ to try and keep the XP awards in line with C&C, since it does require MANY more XP's than 3E does. It isn't critical, though. Anytime you don't like the rate of progression throw in what ever bonus' or adjustments that will make you and your players happy.

Just have fun.

[Traveller]

Well, I can't speak for 3.5 since it sucks ass, but I can tell you that the gold piece prices listed in the M&T book are much like the AD&D 1st Edition prices: the maximum value you could get if you sell the item, but not necessarily what the item is truly worth. That said, I don't see a problem with the value, given that d20 Fantasy is notorious for undervaluing things that should be rare and hard to find, like magic items.

Castles & Crusades is, believe it or not, cheap compared to AD&D which values a wand of magic missiles at 35,000gp. So I guess it's all relative.
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[Expatriorc]

I understand the part about doing it the way I want to do it. I've actually been lurking on this board long enough to know this argument by now. I just want to make sure I'm consistent across the board so if I put a wand of cure light wounds in a shop I know that the players will most likely not be able to afford it until they've been on quite a few treasure raids, and that this is the way the M&T guide was originally designed.

On that topic, for those that use the suggested values in the M&T book, do you generally use the scroll values for spells cast by contracted magic users (i.e. Identify, Cure Wounds, Remove Curse, etc.)? Just curious.

[serleran]

C&C doesn't assume "ye olde magik shoppe" will just be around the corner for the party to unload, or buy, stuff... just because its listed in the book. Some items are exceptionally rare (notice the frequency of their appearance on the tables) and even if such a place existed, would be highly unlikely to have anything of that nature anyway. Then, there is the level requirement, which in a world (assumed in the rules; look at the XP progression for wizards, especially) full of mostly non-capable-of-making-cool-stuff casters mandates (economically) that anything that is available is very expensive. This is cemented by the rather "weak" rewards handed out gold-wise, as some have stated (I personally don't agree.)

So, yes, I use the prices and the system in M&T, and sometimesd modify it even more heavily against the party. Some areas might be a tad easier, like a Greyhawk City or Waterdeep... but in the badlands of Hellblown, you're lucky if you can find a cleric capable of casting first aid.

[gideon_thorne]

Serleran's hit the nail on the head. Its a matter of 'rarity'. The pricing reflects this. ^_^
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Peter Bradley

[Treebore]

gideon_thorne wrote:
Serleran's hit the nail on the head. Its a matter of 'rarity'. The pricing reflects this. ^_^

I get the feeling he is looking for a formula/mechanical/system answer to his question.

Rarity is all relative, meaning dependent on the campaign. Using published settings as examples, Erde has pretty small populations, so items would definitely be rarer. In Greyhawk it will depend upon which part of the world your in. If your over in the Western areas with much smaller populations things will be rarer. The Eastern regions have much higher population densities there may be more.

Then there is Faerun. Down in Calimshan you have millions of people. Pretty much everywhere else until you get over to Thay and Mulharond you have relatively small population densities.

Anways, you just have to come up with something that fits your vision. I like to also take into account that there has been magic items being made for centuries or millenia and even if a small percentage of them survive, it can still add up to a lot to be found or kept from generation to generation.

So its all up to how you want things to be. Perhaps the coolest "power" of a CK.

[Breakdaddy]

Yeah in smaller communities if you can find certain magic items at all, you might be looking at a cost inflation of 150% in order to purchase the item. In huge cities like Greyhawk or Waterdeep you might find someone willing to sell a magic item for 75% or less its full M&T value. Since value is relative to the campaign and environment within the campaign, it's best to eyeball the pricing structure with a critical eye towards your milieu.

[gideon_thorne]

Treebore wrote:
I get the feeling he is looking for a formula/mechanical/system answer to his question.

In C&C?
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Treebore]

gideon_thorne wrote:
In C&C?

Well, with house rules, or using Gary's World Building books along with Magical Medievel Society: Western Europe, like I do, you can get some very detailed answers that actually work as a system. Which, admittedly, is beyond the design goals of C&C itself, but the ease of using house rules definitely comes into play.

[serleran]

If you want a formulaic approach, one would need a simple population:percentage ratio, where something like 1 million residents = 100%, but every 25% less (that is, 750K, 500K, 250K, 100K, etc) = 10-15% less potential.

The table would be as follows:

Population / Percentage of GP Value (Selling)

1 million / 100%

750K / 85%

500K / 70%

250K / 55%

100K / 40%

75K / 25%

50K / 15%

25K / 5%

10K / 1%

7.5K / .85%

5K / .7%

2.5K / .55%

1K /.4%

750 / .25%

500 / .15%

250 / .01%

To obtain an item by buying it, invert the percentages; at .01% the GP value is equivalent to 200%, or double. At 100%, it is as listed.

This is not perfect, but it can help, if that's all you want.

[Expatriorc]

Thanks all!