Players at my table stay out (This means you erc1971!)

[Nelzie]

So, I have to come up with a really killer challenge that holds true to what I have told my players about the extremely dangerous and terrible Orcs of my gameworld... Because, now is the time for them to "experience" the fury of a fully armed and operational... er uh... The might and fury of one of these terrible champions of the Dark Gods.

So far, I have let slip the following:

They are powerful enough that a single Orc could slaughter a party of 6 Level 1 to 2 characters and probably also destroy a party of 3rd level characters.

They are "Anti-Paladins" (Regardless of which "class" they might emulate, they have "Anti-Paladin" kind of powers.)

They have a Fear Aura. The power of the Dark Gods is so strong within them, that the exude a horrific field of fear.

Now, I need to translate that over to game terms and make it a serious challenge for a party of 5th level characters, (no 5th level Arcane Casters exist in this group).

I am thinking the following:
Hakurian Orc

No. Encountered: 1 - 4 (Rarely more than 1, they typically lead armies or groups of elite lesser monstrous humanoids)

Size: Large

HD: 7 (d12)

Move: 30ft.

AC: 22 (Maybe it should be higher?)

Attacks: 3 (By Weapon, typically potent Dark God Empowered High Damage Weapons; ex. Two-Handed Sword of some terrible extra damage or bad effect.)

Special: Fear Aura (10'), Cause Disease (By Laying on Hands), Smite Good (1 Attack per day, adds 9 Points of Damage), Animate Dead? (Once per day, can raise fallen "Cannon Fodder" followers as Zombies, per the spell as a 5th level caster.)

Saves: M, P

Int: High

Alignment: Lawful-Evil

Desc.: Champions of Darkness, these foul beings are the descendants of those who fully pledged themselves to the Dark Gods... (Insert a whole mess of colorful language about how they eat babies for breakfast, your worst nightmare, wouldn't want to meet in a dark alley or in a bright sunny field and so on...)

So... what are your opinions? To powerful? Not powerful enough? The particular one the party will face is going to be leading a small army of highly regimented and trained "Elite" Goblins who will all act as "2nd level" Goblins. The party has a small partially reconstructed keep and about 35 to 45 men and women to act as defenders/fodder in their defense.
_________________
Earned the following:

50 Useless Trivia Points from Serleran

[rabindranath72]

What is the size of the 5th level party?

Take into account that if other critters are also going to accompany this beast (nice idea, anyway!) I think it might be a bit on the difficult side. Besides, take into account that it is a large creature, and so it will also be able to gain initiative in melee.

[Nelzie]

rabindranath72 wrote:
What is the size of the 5th level party?

Take into account that if other critters are also going to accompany this beast (nice idea, anyway!) I think it might be a bit on the difficult side. Besides, take into account that it is a large creature, and so it will also be able to gain initiative in melee.

Hakurian Orcs are bigger than humans, but not by to much, I could bring it down to medium size (Probably will.) Individually, these Dark Champions should be challenging to a party of 5th Level characters.

Yet, my players keep surprising the absolute crap out of me. I set them up against, what I figured, would be a slight challenge and they absolutely slaughtered my challenge, even as I used my "Endless Supply of Opponents" power as CK.

The size of the party is as follows:
Player Characters

5th Level Hesponian Swashbuckler, Human (Check out the "Classes" section of my website www.nelzie.net)

5th Level Cleric, Human

5th Level Druid, Sun Elf (I am setting the scene to happen during a dark rainy day, Sun Elves are not baseline Elves and are detailed in the "People" section of my website.)

4th Level Elven Archer, Sun Elf (Check out the "Classes" section of my website.)

5ht Level Elven Arcane Blade, Snow Elf (In the "Classes" section, Snow Elves are detailed in the "People" Section of my website.)
"Named" Non-Player Characters

4th Level Rogue, Human

5th Level NPC Soldier, Human (NPC Soldier Class is in the "Classes" Section of my website.)

4th Level Wizard, Grey Elf (Grey Elves are detailed in the "People" Section of my website.)

4th Level Ranger, Sun Elf

Plus a smattering of "0-Level" Human Recruits, a couple of 2nd Level NPC Soldiers, a couple of NPC Archers, a few NPC Swashbucklers bringing a total of close to 40 Fighting "men" for defense of the keep.

The Players don't always drag the NPCs with them on adventures, the majority of the named NPCs were each involved with the PCs in either pairs or separately in stories that happened in the Capital of the Barony. A few of them are in the employ of the Baron and he has assigned them to the keep that the PCs are in charge of rebuilding, securing and also patrolling the lands. (I would rather re-use existing NPCs than create a slew of new ones, especially the way the players keep "naming" and heavily interacting with all these NPCs.)

Anyway, as for the battle itself.

The keep is partially rebuilt, the walls are solid, the gatehouse was ignored, so that the ruined village could be rebuilt to allow for resettlement. They will have plenty of healing potions, as one reason for the resettlement is the existance of some minerals that a certain fungus requires bubble up through the natural spring beneath the keep. The fungus is the prime ingrediant in Healing Potions. (They won't have an "over the top" quantity of these.)

The attackers will be a number of "Elite" Goblins, probably numbering between 70 and 100, the Hakurian Orc as the leader and I have considered adding in two other elements. The Forces of Evil, who are now on the rise again, once road Hakurian Dragons* into battle. The party, last session, slaughtered a small group of these, allowing one to escape. I have been considering that the brood they destroyed was affiliated with the Orc and the reason they didn't see the Papa Dragon was because he was with the Orc at the time. So, it's possible that the Orc could ride the Papa Dragon into battle and one of the most "Elite" of the Goblins could be riding the one member of the Brood they slaughtered who escaped.

Yes, this would be an insanely tough battle. Yes, characters could die. (Although, I would seriously rather not have a TPK.)

If this seems WAY over the top, then I could/should dampen some of the stats/abilities of the Hakurian Orc. The above Hakurian Orc would be just a baseline nothing "Special" Hakurian Orc, there would also be some with regular Class abilities and similar who are even more dangerous that wouldn't come into play until much later in the campaign.

*Hakurian Dragons are individually much weaker than "regular" C&C Dragons. The main difference being that they are typically far more numerous. It wouldn't be out of the question to come across a lair containing upwards of 20 of these beasts in various age categories. They are also smaller, with the oldest Hakurian Dragon might be as long as standard City Bus.[/u]
_________________
Earned the following:

50 Useless Trivia Points from Serleran

[Lurker]

Snikey! Is there a whole race of these bad boys.......

Not questing your DMing -so please do think I'm stepping on your toes- How good is your party. If he is that bad/smart with a -small- army there is bound to be some nasty tricks around his keep.

It will be a good hard fight for the right party -my paladin wishes he was there!- but if the party isn't tooled for a good fight or smart enough not to go up the middle it could get ugly.

As the orc it's self I truly like it!

Good luck & I hope to hear how it goes!
_________________
"And so I am become a knight of the Kingdom of Dreams and Shadows!" - Mark Twain

Forgive all spelling errors.

Knight Errant & Humble C&C Society Contributor
C&C Society

[Nelzie]

Lurker wrote:
Snikey! Is there a whole race of these bad boys.......

Yep, there is a whole race of these bad boys. There aren't quite as many as one might think though.

In my game world, the first race was humans. Humans were just "there", the gods noticed them after they pushed back the Chaos of the Elemental Lords.

Certain Gods took groups of Humans and remade them into the Demi-Human Races.

There was a falling out between the Gods of Man and a group of the Gods who have been labeled the Dark Gods. These Dark Gods were cast down, leaving the Gods of Man to their thing with the world. The primary thing that was the basis of the falling out has to do with Freedom of Will. The Gods of Man, believe that Humans and Demi-Humans deserve to keep it, the Dark Gods don't believe in it. They say, "We are Gods, We know better and we have the Power, they should be controlled by us." Thus the corrupted Once Men of the world have no choice of how to behave, as they are controlled by the Dark Gods. (This is to show that Good and Evil are both measurable forces in this world, like Gravity and thus explains why a whole species are simply born evil and can be no other way.)

The Dark Gods still acted upon the world and worked to corrupt Humans and Demi-Humans, giving rise to Goblinoids and other evil Humanoids. The last great "Triumph" of the Dark Gods was the corruption of very powerful Humans who were twisted into the form of Orcs. Few in number, but ferociously powerful, these Dark Champions lead armies of Once Men who laid waste to all the Kingdoms of Man, nearly wiping man from the world in the last great conflict, which happened nearly 500 years in the past.

The armies of the Dark Gods were only barely defeated and that left much of the once largely settled lands held by the Races of Man, quite wild and untread, even in otherwise "settled" lands within the borders of each nation.

Lurker wrote:
Not questing your DMing -so please do think I'm stepping on your toes- How good is your party. If he is that bad/smart with a -small- army there is bound to be some nasty tricks around his keep.

It's the Party's Keep. They are incredibly on their toes.

Lurker wrote:
It will be a good hard fight for the right party -my paladin wishes he was there!- but if the party isn't tooled for a good fight or smart enough not to go up the middle it could get ugly.

As the orc it's self I truly like it!

Good luck & I hope to hear how it goes!

I want each "experience" with a Hakurian Orc to be something that raises dread in the hearts of the PCs. Hearing a story about how one was defeated in battle is a truly awesome event. "Anyone" can be a Dragon Killer (As they are relatively weak), only a rare few can stand against an Orc, live to tell the tale and even fewer still can claim to have defeated such a foe.

The world isn't filled with a large number of High Level characters, the PCs, reaching 5th level are reaching the high end of the curve. There are probably only 3 characters (NPCs) that are over level 9, the vast majority of "People of Note" are in the levels 2 to 5 range. The lands have known peace for so long that there was little reason for people to rush out to adventure, they were to busy rebuilding, raising families and such.
_________________
Earned the following:

50 Useless Trivia Points from Serleran

[Lurker]

Quote:
I want each "experience" with a Hakurian Orc to be something that raises dread in the hearts of the PCs. Hearing a story about how one was defeated in battle is a truly awesome event. "Anyone" can be a Dragon Killer (As they are relatively weak), only a rare few can stand against an Orc, live to tell the tale and even fewer still can claim to have defeated such a foe.

The world isn't filled with a large number of High Level characters, the PCs, reaching 5th level are reaching the high end of the curve. There are probably only 3 characters (NPCs) that are over level 9, the vast majority of "People of Note" are in the levels 2 to 5 range. The lands have known peace for so long that there was little reason for people to rush out to adventure, they were to busy rebuilding, raising families and such.

I LIKE THE SOUND OF THAT! I'm not a huge fan of the "epic" level play.

Quote:
Yet, my players keep surprising the absolute crap out of me. I set them up against, what I figured, would be a slight challenge and they absolutely slaughtered my challenge, even as I used my "Endless Supply of Opponents" power as CK.

Well it sound like the party is the right kind for this fight -again my palidin wishes he was there!- I been in -tooooo few- some groups that were able to work together as well as this one looks to & it should be a great game.
_________________
"And so I am become a knight of the Kingdom of Dreams and Shadows!" - Mark Twain

Forgive all spelling errors.

Knight Errant & Humble C&C Society Contributor
C&C Society

[rabindranath72]

Given the party, it would seem safe. But I think you are the best judge of how things can go. (Un)fortunately, clever players do not need mechanical aids to screw up the best laid plans
Anyway, cool idea for a setting! I love the low-level aspects. It is something I am applying in my Middle-earth games, and it works wonderfully. Players can feel special even at 5th level if they are challenged not only with hordes of critters.

[Nelzie]

rabindranath72 wrote:
Given the party, it would seem safe. But I think you are the best judge of how things can go. (Un)fortunately, clever players do not need mechanical aids to screw up the best laid plans
Anyway, cool idea for a setting! I love the low-level aspects. It is something I am applying in my Middle-earth games, and it works wonderfully. Players can feel special even at 5th level if they are challenged not only with hordes of critters.

Thanks.

I want to keep things "low-level" even as the PCs reach levels 9+. Right now, they are "Lords" acting as the Council of Dracspyre. In the capital of the Barony, they are celebrities, after the party storyteller went about bragging about the party's exploits, which were confirmed by the City guards. They are "Big Damn Heroes" and their story is repeated in other nearby baronies with NPC 'Big Damn Hero' groups, whom they occasionally hear stories and rumors about.

This is how I am setting it up for when they travel and people have heard of their exploits.

"You're the great swordsman Silvio!?! By the gods! I never... I never thought I would ever come face to face with the man of men who leapt into the nest of Green Dragons! Withstood their acidic blasts, fought them off and lived to tell about it!"

The PCs are the Real Big Damn Heroes of the story, even though there are other Big Damn Hero groups across the world. In the next chapter of the campaign, they are going to interact with a number of these other Big Damn Hero groups as the challenges of the world become to great for one group of Big Damn Heroes to handle alone. That's when the game will take on a "World Travel" feel, when they need to cross great stretches of land to find the McGuffin's in order to bring some kind of relative peace back to the world.

EDIT: BTW, The whole campaign world is "low-level". Even the gods are "low-level", they are more along the lines of Demi-Gods in terms of power from a setting like Forgotten Realms.
_________________
Earned the following:

50 Useless Trivia Points from Serleran

[Nelzie]

All Hakurian Orcs are effectively "immortal" save for being beat to death on the field of battle. So, I have significant leeway with regards to the history of where such a fallen and corrupted human came from. In the case of the Orc that the PCs will be facing next session, he is from the City-State League of Spartia and was integral in the campaign that nearly wiped the human kingdoms off the face of the world some 200 years ago.

In that time, he was biding his time in the untreaded lands in the heart of the barony, beating and whipping into shape the remnants of his once vast Goblin army. He's been through many, many generations of Goblins in that time, culling the weak and building a strong force that would have soon been ready to march upon the populated lands of man bringing chaos, evil and fear, as his masters the Dark Gods bid.

In recent years, he subdued a small wing of Hakurian Green Dragons and began to train some Elite Goblins to ride these foul beasts into battle. In just a few more short years, he would have been ready to begin his march of terror, with his eventual goal of securing the human controlled fortress at the foot of the pass that leads to the hellish lands of the Orcs. Fortunately, his plans were dashed when a party of pesky adventurers discovered the lair of the Dragons and slaughtered them almost to the last, with only one Dragon escaping to tell the tale.

Infuriated, he has decided to move against these interfering mortals and crush them.

Which brings us to the present:

The PCs are currently watching the approaching army of Goblins, some mounted on Worgs with Shortbows and firing vile looking Black arrows, the Orc (dressed in his ancient Hoplite armor with spear, bristling with dark power) standing beside his Green Dragon mount barking orders as a sizeable group of Goblins is making its way to the still ruined gatehouse of the keep in Phalanx formation...

So, I need some rules about how to deal with a Phalanx...

I fully intend the group's Druid to smash a good portion of the Phalanx with the first Lightning Strike he began to cast at the end of the last session, but that's hardly going to be the end of a Phalanx attack...

Individually, these Elite Goblins will have slightly better than the book AC, but within the Phalanx, they should have a much higher AC that could/should lower as the group decreases until having a Phalanx is impossible.

What I am looking for is suggestions about how high the "Full Phalanx" AC should be and what the AC should drop to as the Phalanx numbers are decreased through attrition until there simply aren't enough members to keep the Phalanx up.
_________________
Earned the following:

50 Useless Trivia Points from Serleran

[Treebore]

Sounds like a cool game world. If you ever want to "guest CK" my Monday night SKYPE game let me know.

[Nelzie]

Treebore wrote:
Sounds like a cool game world. If you ever want to "guest CK" my Monday night SKYPE game let me know.

Thank you.

So, what do you think of a Phalanx of Elite Goblins?

I am guessing that a "Full Phalanx" may have at least 50 Goblins (with the possibility of quite a few more than 50.)

A "Half Phalanx" would be somewhere around 20 to 30 Goblins.

A "Quarter Phalanx" would number betwen 10 and 15 and any numbers fewer would make it impossible to form a proper Phalanx.

As for AC:

Full Phalanx could be in the 20's, maybe AC 20 to 22

Half could be in the High Teen's, maybe 17 to 18

Quarter would be 15 or 16

While these Elite Goblins are normally set with an AC of 14. (possibly slightly higher.)
_________________
Earned the following:

50 Useless Trivia Points from Serleran

[Treebore]

Nelzie wrote:
Thank you.

So, what do you think of a Phalanx of Elite Goblins?

I am guessing that a "Full Phalanx" may have at least 50 Goblins (with the possibility of quite a few more than 50.)

A "Half Phalanx" would be somewhere around 20 to 30 Goblins.

A "Quarter Phalanx" would number betwen 10 and 15 and any numbers fewer would make it impossible to form a proper Phalanx.

As for AC:

Full Phalanx could be in the 20's, maybe AC 20 to 22

Half could be in the High Teen's, maybe 17 to 18

Quarter would be 15 or 16

While these Elite Goblins are normally set with an AC of 14. (possibly slightly higher.)

When I make such decisions about armor I base it on what I decide the bad guys can afford. Plus with them being Elite I would definitely give them a minimum +1 to AC from DEX, maybe even +2.

So if they can afford to be equipped with Plate Mail (+9 to AC) and Shield that would put AC's at 20 to 22. Have a cleric assigned to cast Bless, Prayer, Protection from Good, etc... just before battle begins and you can get a couple of more plusses to BtH, their AC's, Saves, and a +1 to damage (If prayer works the way I remember it). That would allow you to add at least 3 points to their AC, taking them up to 23 to 25, depending. BtH would be two higher.

A nasty encounter for the first few rounds at least. Plus a +3 to all saves, and plus 4 versus fear effects. All without magic items.

Maybe throw in a mage capable of casting Invisibility sphere, ten foot radius, to make "X" number of the front ranks invisible for the initial approach and attack. Throw in a second mage and you'll be able to make the whole unit invisible.

All without magic items the party will get to keep if they win the day.

[Nelzie]

Treebore wrote:
When I make such decisions about armor I base it on what I decide the bad guys can afford. Plus with them being Elite I would definitely give them a minimum +1 to AC from DEX, maybe even +2.

So if they can afford to be equipped with Plate Mail (+9 to AC) and Shield that would put AC's at 20 to 22. Have a cleric assigned to cast Bless, Prayer, Protection from Good, etc... just before battle begins and you can get a couple of more plusses to BtH, their AC's, Saves, and a +1 to damage (If prayer works the way I remember it). That would allow you to add at least 3 points to their AC, taking them up to 23 to 25, depending. BtH would be two higher.

A nasty encounter for the first few rounds at least. Plus a +3 to all saves, and plus 4 versus fear effects. All without magic items.

Maybe throw in a mage capable of casting Invisibility sphere, ten foot radius, to make "X" number of the front ranks invisible for the initial approach and attack. Throw in a second mage and you'll be able to make the whole unit invisible.

All without magic items the party will get to keep if they win the day.

They are using a Phalanx fighting formation, similar to that used by the Ancient Greeks. They are locked Shield to Shield forming an "impenetrable" wall of protection through which they can shoot out their spears at their foes.

I also don't have to worry about Magic Items in my gameworld. Most magical items (the most powerful ones, at least) are "heroicly imbued" and aren't useful to anyone but the original owner. It's more complex than just two lines can explain. Suffice to say, it works quite well in practice.
_________________
Earned the following:

50 Useless Trivia Points from Serleran

[Treebore]

Nelzie wrote:
They are using a Phalanx fighting formation, similar to that used by the Ancient Greeks. They are locked Shield to Shield forming an "impenetrable" wall of protection through which they can shoot out their spears at their foes.

I also don't have to worry about Magic Items in my gameworld. Most magical items (the most powerful ones, at least) are "heroicly imbued" and aren't useful to anyone but the original owner. It's more complex than just two lines can explain. Suffice to say, it works quite well in practice.

I haven't read your website in months, so forgive the potential ignorance of my question.

Are their spellcasters in your campaign? Priest types? If so, the spell modifiers that can be added are pretty effective. If you don't then the Phalanx formation would give a gret bonus to AC. At least equivelant to 3/4 cover.

[Nelzie]

Treebore wrote:
I haven't read your website in months, so forgive the potential ignorance of my question.

Are their spellcasters in your campaign? Priest types? If so, the spell modifiers that can be added are pretty effective. If you don't then the Phalanx formation would give a gret bonus to AC. At least equivelant to 3/4 cover.

There are spellcasters.

The Goblins don't have very many. I am going to "surprise" the players with the Goblin Spellcasters, which will be few in number. (I would expect them to assume some would be there.)
_________________
Earned the following:

50 Useless Trivia Points from Serleran

[Lurker]

Good Idea on the phalanx. I've been kicking around a soldier NPC type class. Each soldier being week on their own but if you add more soldiers to the right & left the AC goes up fairly quickly & the BAC increasing a little more slowly.

I was thinking a basic Min combat effictive unit would be 4-8 (I don't have all my resurch books to nail it down) for every unit there would be a +1 or +2 to the AC and there would be a + 1 for every 2 or 3 units (again no way to play test so can't nail it down)

I use this not only in a phalanx set up but in all well trained soldiers. -Light armored skirmish soldiers are week, but if they are working together, you might kill 1 or to of the quick little bugers but you be pelted by a hail of sling stones & javilins. Good luck on living through that!-

I'd have never thought about giving that to goblins, but with the history of the orc -great back story by the way!- it would fit.
_________________
"And so I am become a knight of the Kingdom of Dreams and Shadows!" - Mark Twain

Forgive all spelling errors.

Knight Errant & Humble C&C Society Contributor
C&C Society

[Nelzie]

Lurker wrote:
Good Idea on the phalanx. I've been kicking around a soldier NPC type class. Each soldier being week on their own but if you add more soldiers to the right & left the AC goes up fairly quickly & the BAC increasing a little more slowly.

I was thinking a basic Min combat effictive unit would be 4-8 (I don't have all my resurch books to nail it down) for every unit there would be a +1 or +2 to the AC and there would be a + 1 for every 2 or 3 units (again no way to play test so can't nail it down)

I use this not only in a phalanx set up but in all well trained soldiers. -Light armored skirmish soldiers are week, but if they are working together, you might kill 1 or to of the quick little bugers but you be pelted by a hail of sling stones & javilins. Good luck on living through that!-

I'd have never thought about giving that to goblins, but with the history of the orc -great back story by the way!- it would fit.

Hmm... I hadn't thought about transferring that over to the PCs soldiers. It would work, as they are going to be sitting side by side right in the hole where their ruined gatehouse would have a gate...

Thanks for that idea.
_________________
Earned the following:

50 Useless Trivia Points from Serleran