Just for fun I have decided to essay some ideas from my own C&C campaign ,hopefully to bring a prism into the light.
First off I have returned to the OD&D Law,Chaos&Neutrality Alignment system for my current campaign.
Clerics,knights,paladins serve Law period.They all recognize heirarchy whether it be devine or earthly.I dont ask that they put good,neutral or evil after it.Their lives are based on law(s) and sometimes "good" people suffer to uphold laws and keep them in place.
In my campaign Paladins are the ultimate Zealots of Law.When a town or Province seeths of revolution or revolt,you send the paladin.He(she) has unquestioning faith and loyalty to his cause,Diety,king,bishop.This brings a less "romantic" view on the paladin,especially in the eyes of the older races as you will see as I post more about the other classes,races etc.
Alignment and classes
alignment continued
Clerics regardless if they be goodly or crass serve law faithfully.Their God(s) demand recognition of heirarchy as power is bestowed upon the faithfull,cascades downward.
Only humans become clerics as the demi-human races only recognize the abstract elemental forces for they are the only ones old enough to remember the world before the time of human gods and Law.
Divine magic is a gift of faithfull obedience and is to be used as a tool to further the laws ordained by those God(s).Magic is in itself a form of Chaos and its use is hypocritical,but a necessary evil to combat chaos or worse neutrality.
Knights are the worldy instruments of the Divine purposes of Law.They are not intended to understand the full extent of their role but just to serve Law as Law requires servitude as it requires rulers,for what would a ruler be without rules!They would be in the Dark dreams of chaos!or worse.
Only humans become clerics as the demi-human races only recognize the abstract elemental forces for they are the only ones old enough to remember the world before the time of human gods and Law.
Divine magic is a gift of faithfull obedience and is to be used as a tool to further the laws ordained by those God(s).Magic is in itself a form of Chaos and its use is hypocritical,but a necessary evil to combat chaos or worse neutrality.
Knights are the worldy instruments of the Divine purposes of Law.They are not intended to understand the full extent of their role but just to serve Law as Law requires servitude as it requires rulers,for what would a ruler be without rules!They would be in the Dark dreams of chaos!or worse.
serleran wrote:
Makes sense. I, personally, don't use alignment in my current game world, because I feel its counter-productive to what I want, but its always good to see what others are doing.
I'm thinking about going this route as well. Any drawbacks/pitfalls to not having alignment in play? I figure if my players are really good at role-playing, it won't matter if alignment is tossed.
Oh - and if I keep alignment, I like the idea that knights must be Lawful. That makes a lot of sense. I don't have Clerics in my gameworld, but I'm not completely sold on the argument for them being lawful. I'll have to think about it.
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Laudir Agus Mir
Re: Alignment and classes
elad neb wrote:
First off I have returned to the OD&D Law, Chaos & Neutrality Alignment system for my current campaign.
In my campaign Paladins are the ultimate Zealots of Law.When a town or Province seeths of revolution or revolt,you send the paladin. He(she) has unquestioning faith and loyalty to his cause, deity, king, bishop. This brings a less "romantic" view on the paladin,especially in the eyes of the older races as you will see as I post more about the other classes,races etc.
Interesting view, I like it. If I were to use it, I would make them optional alignments. That is, by default, there is no need to have an alignment (represented by Neutrality). In fact Law and Chaos would be seen as allegiances one could take or not. The idea would be that at some point in history Chaos intruded into the world and corrupted it (undead, for example, are possible only because of Chaos). Then, because of that threat, some people turned to Law to help them fight Chaos. For example, summoning demons requires to have an allegiance to Chaos, while asking for angels' help requires allegiance to Law.
About paladins, here is an interesting definition of paladins.
Quote:
Any drawbacks/pitfalls to not having alignment in play?
Only for things that are based directly on it, like spells aligned specifically, or magic items with alignments, and the like. However, I have discarded the paladin as a class, and the monk, both of which are traditionally alignment-based, and spells simply do a little more broad effect; for example, the protection from evil spell protects the caster from beings that mean to do harm, and all extraplanar beings not from a high plane, in addition to its normal effects. An item like a holy avenger works as it does normally, but only against direct opponents of a faith (meaning, not so much against the average monster), meaning there are both "good" and "bad" avengers. It just takes some flipping through the PHB and M&T to get an idea of what will be affected by removing alignment, and then deciding to keep it, and how.
serleran wrote:
Only for things that are based directly on it, like spells aligned specifically, or magic items with alignments, and the like. However, I have discarded the paladin as a class, and the monk, both of which are traditionally alignment-based....
Funny - they are gone from my campaign as well.
Thanks for the response!
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Laudir Agus Mir
" In fact Law and Chaos would be seen as allegiances one could take or not. The idea would be that at some point in history Chaos intruded into the world and corrupted it (undead, for example, are possible only because of Chaos)."
Funny you would describe Chaos like that but I'll get to that later.
Neutrality is not the absence of or no alignment but understanding there must be a balance of the two extremes.When you have made no choice ,you have made your choice:)sounds like a song doesn't it:)
The gods of law were summoned to my campaign world out of human need for higher purpose and understanding.while humans are the only race to serve law in my world they are also a loose cannon in regards to alignment,the older or alien(elves) races are set in their alignment due to their creation and understanding of the universe.Humans are a balance in themselves.Created by nature(neutrality)imbued with a need to set laws and bridle nature under his control(law) and the madness for his own selfdescruction(genocide etc)-chaos!
the wisdom of Nature(neutrality) in such a creation is all encompassing!another balancing factor is that Law and Chaos do NOT have the power of creation just influence and change,only Nature has that power.which is why those worlds become so important to the gods.If they could just make one,then there would be no reason for such jealousy!Both Law and Chaos seek to control the elements(nature),but in doing so they end up doing her bidding!
The gods are wise and old but at the same time ,are like children playing with a gun.their anger is quick like a selfish child.
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Funny you would describe Chaos like that but I'll get to that later.
Neutrality is not the absence of or no alignment but understanding there must be a balance of the two extremes.When you have made no choice ,you have made your choice:)sounds like a song doesn't it:)
The gods of law were summoned to my campaign world out of human need for higher purpose and understanding.while humans are the only race to serve law in my world they are also a loose cannon in regards to alignment,the older or alien(elves) races are set in their alignment due to their creation and understanding of the universe.Humans are a balance in themselves.Created by nature(neutrality)imbued with a need to set laws and bridle nature under his control(law) and the madness for his own selfdescruction(genocide etc)-chaos!
the wisdom of Nature(neutrality) in such a creation is all encompassing!another balancing factor is that Law and Chaos do NOT have the power of creation just influence and change,only Nature has that power.which is why those worlds become so important to the gods.If they could just make one,then there would be no reason for such jealousy!Both Law and Chaos seek to control the elements(nature),but in doing so they end up doing her bidding!
The gods are wise and old but at the same time ,are like children playing with a gun.their anger is quick like a selfish child.
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No Alignments in a campaign!Good Godz!!
Alignment is the human delimma that turns a roleplaying session into an ages old fable or legend!
A story of the shamed high cleric whom defied his gods of law when he stopped the slaughter of innocent dwarves whom view such gods with disdain!Hunted and pushed into hatred for such beings,just looking for peace from such neverending conflict or maybe the chaos gods offer him revenge and power(so he changes his class to wizard)!
The challenge in rpgs is playing alignment.It sets in motion all the great undertones that made all the old fables of adventure Great!A player may start thinking his character is what he wants ,but later on as he finds out what is required of that person it may change his outlook(alignment)on the game world bringing those awesome world changing (here's that word again)Delimma's that add drama to the story!
Its such a paralell to watch as both the player and character change their opinion on such things when youthfull enthusiasm changes to disdain when they experience the cost of power!
Alignment is the human delimma that turns a roleplaying session into an ages old fable or legend!
A story of the shamed high cleric whom defied his gods of law when he stopped the slaughter of innocent dwarves whom view such gods with disdain!Hunted and pushed into hatred for such beings,just looking for peace from such neverending conflict or maybe the chaos gods offer him revenge and power(so he changes his class to wizard)!
The challenge in rpgs is playing alignment.It sets in motion all the great undertones that made all the old fables of adventure Great!A player may start thinking his character is what he wants ,but later on as he finds out what is required of that person it may change his outlook(alignment)on the game world bringing those awesome world changing (here's that word again)Delimma's that add drama to the story!
Its such a paralell to watch as both the player and character change their opinion on such things when youthfull enthusiasm changes to disdain when they experience the cost of power!
Chaos and Magic.Enter the Elves!
the universe at large functions under a set of principles.At a subatomic level those rules break down and no longer apply.These are the planes of Chaos!
magic and chaos were a dark gift brought into my world by the elves.No one knows what they were before they arrived,not even they do but upon entering the prime material their forms took a pleasing shape(pleasing to them) and a fragment of chaos that is their home island and capital city appeared in the western ocean.
elves are the children of chaos personified.they are what I term anti-hermafrodite.Upon entering this plane they assumed both features of men and women and neither.Some have more womanly features than men ,others are opposite.they are quite tall.slim and aqualine in features.Their skin goes from milky white to pitch black and sometimes both almost at a whim.they do not age but are quite sterile.
Their children if I may call them that are bourn in labratories of magic and are elf/human hybrids ,monsters that act as slaves and entertainment for their arcane masters.
elves also brought with them the secrets of magic.elves are the only true wizards of great power.Magic brings madness and as they are already insane it has no affect on them(or if it does they seem to like it like a drug).their half-elf hybrid servents also know magic to a lesser degree,though some have achieved some status in the world of men.Elves are percieved(quite rightly)to be cruel,inhumane butchers and tyrants.Torture is a normal form of household entertainment.A steady stream of human slaves comes from the kingndoms of men in return for dark secrets or favors.
Since the elves cannot bear children their population is dwindling due to war ,suicide and other factors(but not age).At some point they will dissapear(a fact they mind amusing in a dark way).
the universe at large functions under a set of principles.At a subatomic level those rules break down and no longer apply.These are the planes of Chaos!
magic and chaos were a dark gift brought into my world by the elves.No one knows what they were before they arrived,not even they do but upon entering the prime material their forms took a pleasing shape(pleasing to them) and a fragment of chaos that is their home island and capital city appeared in the western ocean.
elves are the children of chaos personified.they are what I term anti-hermafrodite.Upon entering this plane they assumed both features of men and women and neither.Some have more womanly features than men ,others are opposite.they are quite tall.slim and aqualine in features.Their skin goes from milky white to pitch black and sometimes both almost at a whim.they do not age but are quite sterile.
Their children if I may call them that are bourn in labratories of magic and are elf/human hybrids ,monsters that act as slaves and entertainment for their arcane masters.
elves also brought with them the secrets of magic.elves are the only true wizards of great power.Magic brings madness and as they are already insane it has no affect on them(or if it does they seem to like it like a drug).their half-elf hybrid servents also know magic to a lesser degree,though some have achieved some status in the world of men.Elves are percieved(quite rightly)to be cruel,inhumane butchers and tyrants.Torture is a normal form of household entertainment.A steady stream of human slaves comes from the kingndoms of men in return for dark secrets or favors.
Since the elves cannot bear children their population is dwindling due to war ,suicide and other factors(but not age).At some point they will dissapear(a fact they mind amusing in a dark way).
MAGIC & MONSTERs
Magic in my campaign is the distortion of universal laws.This anomaly is obtained by applications of chaos.On a normal 1gravity world a man cannot levitate himself.But with doses of unreality and chaos it happens.This breaking of fundamental laws comes at the price of sanity.
Human wizards of any merit are rare and are quite insane.Human illutionists' are uncommon though less rare.The illusionist is a marriage of elven magic and human reason.
The elves made their exodus into this realm ten thousand years ago,only the dwarves and druids remember a time before they came.when they entered this plane other odd things were let loose in this world,The Monsters!
Magic in my campaign is the distortion of universal laws.This anomaly is obtained by applications of chaos.On a normal 1gravity world a man cannot levitate himself.But with doses of unreality and chaos it happens.This breaking of fundamental laws comes at the price of sanity.
Human wizards of any merit are rare and are quite insane.Human illutionists' are uncommon though less rare.The illusionist is a marriage of elven magic and human reason.
The elves made their exodus into this realm ten thousand years ago,only the dwarves and druids remember a time before they came.when they entered this plane other odd things were let loose in this world,The Monsters!
elad neb wrote:
" In fact Law and Chaos would be seen as allegiances one could take or not. The idea would be that at some point in history Chaos intruded into the world and corrupted it (undead, for example, are possible only because of Chaos)."
Funny you would describe Chaos like that
I am extremely slowly working on my campaign world. Its flavor includes R.E. Howard's sword & sorcery style, and Moorcock's themes. This is the reason I feel inclined to discard alignments (R.E. Howard's sword & sorcery style doesn't require it IMO), but add "allegiances" to either Law or Chaos (in the typical Elric's way) that are unecessary unless one want to cast cleric spells (allegiance to Law) or summon demons (allegiance to Chaos). I didn't want to have wizards have to be affiliated to Chaos, so I made wizardry draconic in origin, and made necromancy / demonology the magic of Chaos (to keep them for NPCs).
There are ways to add moral dilemma without alignment; in fact, the same situations can exist. All alignment does is provide a means to codify your character's particular outlook. So, you have a cleric that makes the wrong choice and gets shamed... he's now no longer part of the church, loses his spellcasting, gets driven out of town, and is forced to become an adventurer, as a fighter's squire. Didn't need "his alignment changes to neutral evil." Just use in-game penalties and rewards for playing a consistency (and for missteps,) and alignment becomes less a straitjacket, which is how many people see it. All I did was remove the bonds, and let people make their own decisions, rather than "my alignment wouldn't allow me..."
I apologize if it seemed as if i was knocking on your campaign style,i wasn't.
I can see you point and method I just choose to use it as tool.Which went back to the Three point alignment system.It gives much broader choices to the players.
If a cleric of Law decides its necessary to burn down a village of innocent villagers to make a point,it doesnt change his alignment to chaotic nor does it meen squat in the realm of the gods whom are concentrating on a larger picture unless of coarse there was some reason they didnt want him to.The cleric was just keeping the will of the people in check and his ruling power safe.In his mind he was acting according to the rule of Law!
sorry if i ruffled some feathers!
I can see you point and method I just choose to use it as tool.Which went back to the Three point alignment system.It gives much broader choices to the players.
If a cleric of Law decides its necessary to burn down a village of innocent villagers to make a point,it doesnt change his alignment to chaotic nor does it meen squat in the realm of the gods whom are concentrating on a larger picture unless of coarse there was some reason they didnt want him to.The cleric was just keeping the will of the people in check and his ruling power safe.In his mind he was acting according to the rule of Law!
sorry if i ruffled some feathers!
I agree the classic system is more flexible than the 9-way. I just prefer a "no way."-
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