Does anyone not love C&C?

[Tank]

Wow. Cncplayer dot net is really great. (I'm not a weirdo. I just can't type url's until I have five posts...)

It's amazing how much support there is for C&C. There's a World of Greyhawk campaign, and I just found a conversion for Isle of Dread (randomly enough, the original of which I picked up off my shelf this morning). And the e-screen is great!

I hope my players get as excited as I am!

[Nifelhein]

be certain to check the Links, Web Resources, and Other Interweb Utilities thread, lots of good things there. Though by now you must have already done that.
_________________
"We cannot live only for ourselves. A thousand fibers connect us with our fellow men; and among those fibers, as sympathetic threads, our actions run as causes, and they come back to us as effects." - Attributed to Herman Melville.

[Julian Grimm]

Tank wrote:
I read through some very long threads at rpg dot net, and what sticks with me most is one guy who thinks that since C&C doesn't include feats by default, it does not allow for ample creation of a character "concept." At one point, he argues that since there's no way to use the SIEGE engine to ignite your sword on fire or break someone's bones (as is apparently possible with ToB feats), C&C players are missing out. The fact is, lighting your sword on fire doesn't sound like much of a concept to me. Thinking back over my history of AD&D and 3.x characters, it's interesting to see how selecting different primes -- and simply opting to use different moves in combat -- would allow me to recreate those characters in a way that would be true to my original concept.

With an inventive group more than teh above is possible. C&C lends itself to a looser and more cinimatic style. Take the scene in The Scorpion King where a sword is stuck in a braizer and comes out flaming. All you need is a CK and a good imagination to pull it off. Also Most feats, especially combat ones can be emulated and used by everyone. All you need is a base idea of how you want to pull it off.

Quote:
I think I'll make a few phone calls to my local gaming stores and see if they carry The Crusader. What do you think my chances are?

Sorry, The mag is subscription only. So I doubt there is much chance of it. However if you need some instant stuff go HERE. And might I suggest The Keeper as a choice?
_________________
The Lord of Ravens
My blog

[gideon_thorne]

Julian Grimm wrote:
Sorry, The mag is subscription only.

*smiles* I think it might expand beyond that at some point soon. ^_~`
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Julian Grimm]

gideon_thorne wrote:
*smiles* I think it might expand beyond that at some point soon. ^_~`

I hope so!
_________________
The Lord of Ravens
My blog

[Breakdaddy]

I think the mag is available as a download from rpgnow or is it drivethrurpg?

[Treebore]

Here are my house rules. Some of which are carry overs from my 1E and 2E days (mainly the god call stuff).

My C&C House Rules.

Basics:

Character Generation.

Stats:

Generate as you desire. Stats do not have a HUGE impact in C&C, so if you want to cheat and give yourself straight 18's, go ahead.

My prefered method is still generous. IT is roll 4d6 for each attribute. Re-roll all 1's and 2's until you see none. Add up the 3 highest numbers. Arrange stats as desired for the class you wish to play. Then add and subtract racial modifiers, if any.

Now would probably be a good time for me to let you know that I have down times in my campaigns. I will have years pass in the campaign where you do nothing but live normally. During this time, you can use my house rule for increasing stats through exercise or study.

Here is how it works, numbers are kind of arbitrary, so if you don't like it don't use this rule.

You will have to declare you are dedicating one whole month, 8 hours a day, 6 days a week (one day of rest is allowed), to attempt increasing a specific ability score. Say Strength will be our example. You will spend a whole month sweating and lifting weights. At the end of the month you get to roll. The TN is the score you are trying to achieve. Which can only be one point higher than the score you currently have. Say it is a 15 that you have. This means you are going for a 16 and that is your target number (TN). So you roll. You fail. So your out 200 GP (100 GP for each "+" of the attribute you are trying to achieve, 50 GP when there is no bonus, or it is a "-") and have not achieved an increase.

Now if you quit, we are done until the next time, or if you switch to try another stat. Now, if you work on the same stat for continuous months at a time, you get to add a +1 to your next roll for each consecutive month, after the first, you work towards improving that specific stat.

So if you continue with strength for the next month you get a +1 to your next roll. So now it is roll 1d20+1 to try for that 16. If it takes you 5 months of effort you will have a +4 on the roll.

So far the longest a player has ever taken to get a increase to 16 has been 10 months (10 rolls), then when they finally made it they rolled a 19, with no need for any of the accumulated modifiers.

Game Play:

Something I call "Feat like Actions".

In reality this is when you want to attempt something the base rules don't cover. Such as many feats seen in the 3E D&D rules set.

Typically you declare you want to attempt to perform an "extra" kind of action. Such as attempt an extra normal attack, or your opponent goes down and you want to try and attack the target to your left the same round (called a Cleave in 3E). Then I tell you the TN, which is typically TN 12+ the HD of the creature against whom you are attacking. You roll the d20 and try to beat the TN, adjusting with your class level only. No magic bonuses or stat bonuses help you. Pure class level only.

If you succeed, you get to make an extra attack roll, if you fail your turn is over.

Sometimes you might convince me to allow you more than one such roll in a given round. Give me good reasoning that I can agree with, and I am likely to say yes.

Typicaly, if you pull off an extra attack roll, and that attack takes down your opponent I will likely let you attempt the cleave like action against the next enemy, if its HD are the same as or lower than the opponent you just defeated.

Remember, you roll to see if you can even make the attempt. If that roll succeeds, then you get to roll again to see if you actually pull it off.

Yes, I intentionally make it require so much extra rolling. This is to discourage players from using it ALL the time. I want to see it used in tough fights. Fights where you need that something "extra" to go your way to win the day. If your worried about you and the party surviving the fight, start requesting such rolls.

If the fight seems to be going your way, don't request the rolls, it slows things down for no good reason other than "just because".

Skills:

If it makes sense for your character to have such a skill, and you write up a character background giving details as to why they have it, then your character has the skill.

Perhaps the best way for you to know what skills you have is to use the 3E skills lists. Look at the class that most closely matches your characters class (very easy in most cases). Whatever is listed for that class you have as a skill. The only limits I care about is in Knowledge, Craft, and Profession. You can have a skill in each of these categories. Just one. You can have an additional skill in each of these categories for each bonus you have to your INT.

It only works this way at character creation. In play you can spend down time learning skills instead of increasing stats, with very similiar rules.

Called Shots:

I do not like to use called shots. So I won't. Unless you do. Then it will become a free for all. It is likely your PC will end up dead.

Luck points:

I give you luck points to use to achieve a given goal. Say your currently heading to clear out a steading of hill giants. Your pool of luck points is refreshed for working towards this goal. So any time you use a luck point until you successfully clear out and achieve the goal, your luck points do not refresh.

How many luck points do you have? 1+ your Character level.

What can you use them for? To re-roll any roll you make for YOUR character. One time per roll, only. IF, you fail a save versus a spell that kills you, you can permanently burn a luck point to not die. Some fluke of luck puts you at deaths door instead. You can do the same when an attack does enough to kill you. Burn a luck point to reduce the damage by enough to put you at deaths door instead.

Otherwise you die, and if your party lives,reincarnation or being raised from the dead may allow you to live once again.

Going negative HP:

I do not do the -10 HP thing, unless your CON SUCKS!! If your CON is higher than 10, that is how negative you can go without dying. If you have a CON modifier, you add that to your CON score. So, for example, if you have an 18 CON (+3 modifier), you can go -21 without dying (18+3). If your CON is lower than 10, then I'm nice and 10 is your default, minus your negative CON modifier only. So if your Con is 8, you subtract the (-1) from 10, so you are at deaths door at -9, rather than (-7).

If CON is your Prime, you automatically stabilize and stop losing HP when you go negative.

Diplomacy, bartering, negotiating, intimidating, etc... You will have to roleplay, not just roll. I will still make a roll, but I will adjust the TN by how good (or bad) your role play is. If your new to playing RPG's I will cut you some slack. Plus if you are new and impress me I'll give you an even better modifier.

Classes not in the PH.

Right now I only have one character class that is not in the PH in my game. That is the Runemark, which is kind of a wizard, but does have significant differences.

If there is something you would like to play that isn't do able with the classes, let me know. There may be something in the the C&C Net Book of Classes that I will allow, in Crusader 4 or 5, or we can discuss writing up a tailored class.

Druids: I allow an alternative for your totem shape in C&C. Elementals. You chose one elemental type at 6th, then you can chose the others at 8th, 10th, and 12th. Your level is equal to HD in the M&T. So when you are 7th to 15th you get the damage, etc... of the elemental in the M&T. For all intents and purposes you are the elemental. Duration is 10 minutes per level. For normal animal totems as well as elemental versions. If you take the elemental route you can choose only elemental forms. If you go the animal totem route, you can only chose animals.

Items worn are absorbed into your body, if you have one, such as earth elemental or an animal form. If your form does not have a solid body (air, fire , water), or is too small to contain the items easily, they fall to the ground when you change shape. Things such as rings and necklaces/amulets will stay on your new form and function, if it has a body. Air, Fire, and water elementals do NOT have solid bodies, so ALL items will fall to the ground.

Polymorphing, self or other. When you memorize the spell, you memorize it for one living shape only.The shape is decided upon at the time it is memorized, not cast. However, the magic of the spell also has all worn items "absorbed" into the new form, somehow. If I deem it is sensible that a ring, amulet, and even boots if you take a bi-pedal form, should still work for you, then I will allow them to continue working. Even armor, if your polymorphing into an orc, to infiltrate an orc tribe or encampment. Because of this "limitation" I am putting on this spell, it is now a level lower than what is in the books. If you want a spell that works like as written in the books, you must research it, in game, and it will be one level higher than it is in the books.

Spell Resistance: When you roll to overcome SR you get to add your INT bonus, or WIS bonus, dependent on if you are a arcane or divine caster. The nature of the SR itself does not matter, just the "school" of casting you belong to. Unless I write up a monster that it does matter for.

Also, as a general rule, that supercedes what is in the books, when it actually conflicts, SR will NOT work against spells that summon something into being. For examples, Web, Wall of Force, Wall of Stone, Wall of Air, Blade Barrier, Monsters, etc... It will work against spells made of Illusion, Fireballs, lighting bolts, all mind effecting spells, etc...

God Calls.

Gods are real in my games. They may even have a vested interest in your character, for reasons you may or (probably) may not know about.

So to "reflect" this, I allow God Calls. These are the last ditch, "Please, my deity, save my butt!" pleas for your god to save you. They might actually do it in my games. IT is represented by a percentile roll. You have a 1% chance per level of your plea being answered. If you are a divine type of class (typically Clerics, Druids, and Paladins) you have an additional 5% bonus to this chance.

Now if you role play a character well, as being very devoted to your deity, then I may give you a bonus to your next god call for such things, for specific things you do to show this devotion.

The most common has been to donate a lot of gold to your church. Donating 10% of your wealth is kind of the expected standard. So that will get you nothing. However, if you donate 20%, that exceeds 5,000 GP at any one time, I will give you a 1% bonus. The more you donate, the more bonuses I will give you.

You can also do things like start and fund a hospice in your deities name, or build and see to the maintenance of a shrine in a new area likely to attract new worshippers, or to provide a place of worship for worshippers that already live in that area. These will get you even better bonuses.

However, once you attempt a God Call, successfully or not, your chance goes back to your base chance.

You may make a god call any time you like, for any reason. However, the only times I will roll is when your characters life is on the line.

Even though you may play very devoutly, donated a lot of money, built several shrines and hospices, etc... Your deity may slap a Geas on you in exchange for answering your plea. Especially if it involved saving party members that don't worship your deity.

A good way to know what to expect with a God Call, is to think of it as a Wish being granted by the genie in Alladin. One specifically aimed at saving you and your friends.

Alterations to existing classes:

So far I have changed the Ranger and Paladin, plus the Druid as I covered earlier.

Paladin: At 9th level the Paladin receives the ability to Smite Evil, once per day. In my game you can choose to keep it that way, getting an additional use per day every 2 levels thereafter. Or, you can choose to select a specific group or race known to be evil, and get your CHA bonus to hit them, and a +1 to Damage for every level of Paladin. Which would start at +9 to Damage. You get this every time you know you are fighting a enemy belonging to the group or race you chose. Notice I said you must KNOW that they are your chosen enemy.

You will be able to select an additional "enemy" for this power every 2 levels from now on as well.

Ranger:

You get to choose an additional "Favored Enemy" every 3 levels after 6th. So at 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th level you can select another humanoid or Giant Race as a "Favored Enemy". Maybe even something else, if the campaigns story line justifies it, and I agree that it makes sense.

Humanoids:

I define "humanoids" as any race of creature that was not classified as "demi-human" in 2E. Meaning elves, humans, dwarves, halflings, gomes, etc.. are not humanoids for purposes of the Rangers class abilities. UNLESS, they are a member of some group that is an enemy of the Rangers civilization, such as the forces of Unklar in my Erde campaign world would qualify.

I am also considering additional house rules on Monks, Fighters, and Barbarians. I may also alter spell lists, particularly for the Druid and Illusionist. I am also thinking of improving the BtH of the Thief and Assassin.

Assassin, a Assassin can make a "Feat Like Action" roll to make their first attack versus an opponent a "Death Attack", without 3 rounds of study. Plus it must still be a surprise/unexpected attack.

[Harmast]

Julian Grimm wrote:
Sorry, The mag is subscription only. So I doubt there is much chance of it. However if you need some instant stuff go

The only two issues I have were both bought at game stores:

Volume 2/Number 4 at the Dragon's Lair in Austin, TX

Volume 3/Number 5 at the Dragon's Lair in San Antonio, TX

[DangerDwarf]

Austin...

San Antonio....

Dallas....

*sigh*

More Crusaders need to move out to the sticks in east Texas.

[Harmast]

DangerDwarf wrote:
Austin...

San Antonio....

Dallas....

*sigh*

More Crusaders need to move out to the sticks in east Texas.

Define sticks...College Station ain't exactly happening (and disappointing for a college town) 46,000 students at A&M and we have no game store, just a couple of comic stores with a few games (although BCS comics will order whatever I request).

[Harmast]

Tank wrote:
I read through some very long threads at rpg dot net, and what sticks with me most is one guy who thinks that since C&C doesn't include feats by default, it does not allow for ample creation of a character "concept." At one point, he argues that since there's no way to use the SIEGE engine to ignite your sword on fire or break someone's bones (as is apparently possible with ToB feats), C&C players are missing out. The fact is, lighting your sword on fire doesn't sound like much of a concept to me. Thinking back over my history of AD&D and 3.x characters, it's interesting to see how selecting different primes -- and simply opting to use different moves in combat -- would allow me to recreate those characters in a way that would be true to my original concept.

If you can't realize that:

1. Any is a large enough set that it includes any specific something you can think up.

2. If you can't think up any specific something but need to rely on specific somethings written for you by professionals.

I'd agree that 3.5 and its specific feats system is a better choice the SEIGE for you.

[DangerDwarf]

Harmast wrote:
Define sticks...

We have a general store.

Oh! And the general store changes tires too!

Um. Yeah, thats it unless you count the post office.

I considered trying to transfer to a unit in College Station, but despite the ongoing gamer drought in the region, I kinda like it.

[sieg]

Well, I was in the B&N last weekend in Tyler and they had the PHB and M&T books. No mags, but its a start.
_________________
Always remember, as a first principle of all D&D: playing BtB is not now, never was and never will be old school.- Tim Kask, Dragonsfoot

[DangerDwarf]

sieg wrote:
Well, I was in the B&N last weekend in Tyler and they had the PHB and M&T books. No mags, but its a start.

Hey, thats pretty cool. I'm gonna check it out next trip to Tyler. Heh, I'd have never guessed you'd find 'em at a B&N.

[Omote]

sieg wrote:
Well, I was in the B&N last weekend in Tyler and they had the PHB and M&T books. No mags, but its a start.

Indeed. Barnes & Noble in Westlake Ohio also has the C&C PHB and M&T. BTW, Sieg, thanks for bringing this up. It's good to see that C&C is finally being carried in these chain stores.

........................................Omote

FPQ
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

[Tadhg]

Hmmm, odd. I seem to recall many folks buying single copies of Crusader at their LGS. The store may have special ordered it, but methinks you can get singles.

You sure can on TLG's main site.
_________________
Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

[serleran]

B&N has had C&C stuff since its debut, but they list is as "not for minors" on their website, which I find rather perplexing and humorous.

[Omote]

Hmm. Never check B&N.com, but in my area it's right on the shelf next to the comic book section.

...............................................Omote

FPQ
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

[Julian Grimm]

DangerDwarf wrote:
Hey, thats pretty cool. I'm gonna check it out next trip to Tyler. Heh, I'd have never guessed you'd find 'em at a B&N.

Y'all just need to move to Missouri close to say...me.
_________________
The Lord of Ravens
My blog

[supershmi]

I'm not wowed by C&C, but it's not bad. I just prefer having tons of classes, prestige classes, feats, skills, and other random content because i feel like you can specialize your character more explicitly and it's easier to have really memorable characters. this is not to say you can't have these things with C&C, but tons of pre-made content helps those of us with less creative imaginations get a good start towards making a character and world that we really enjoy.

[Nifelhein]

My most memorable characters were not character sheets, they cannot be summarised in game rules, so I guess I am in a different tune than you are, but then, there are dozens of new classes on Colin Sez alone, and with the links thread you can get even more.

But then, it seems C&C might not be the right system for you.
_________________
"We cannot live only for ourselves. A thousand fibers connect us with our fellow men; and among those fibers, as sympathetic threads, our actions run as causes, and they come back to us as effects." - Attributed to Herman Melville.

[Omote]

I also have to agree that my most memorable character, and one of my favorite was still a 9th level cleric from Mentzer Basic D&D. If if one RPG every had no rules, it would be that one
.............................................Omote

FPQ
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

[Treebore]

supershmi wrote:
I'm not wowed by C&C, but it's not bad. I just prefer having tons of classes, prestige classes, feats, skills, and other random content because i feel like you can specialize your character more explicitly and it's easier to have really memorable characters. this is not to say you can't have these things with C&C, but tons of pre-made content helps those of us with less creative imaginations get a good start towards making a character and world that we really enjoy.

"but tons of pre-made content helps those of us with less creative imaginations get a good start towards making a character and world that we really enjoy"

You know, I essentially said that about 3E over on the ENWorld boards and I was called condescending and other elitist type adjectives.

I guess I worded things too bluntly.

[gideon_thorne]

Ye gods, lets not go round and round again.
Complexity, add it if you want it, just dont expect it to appear in the core books. ^_~`
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[serleran]

Besides, there is tons of pre-made content... its fan-based, but that's cause there are fans who want to make stuff available to others. For example, at Raven's Keep, there are numerous homebrew worlds, and there are countless houserules on these very boards... so, if you don't wanna create your own stuff, rip someone else off!

And, please, don't try the "but its not official, or is broken" rigamarole, since any player, even those who can't create their own stuff, know when to not use something after they play with it a bit... so, if you don't like it, drop it, and rip someone else off!

[DangerDwarf]

gideon_thorne wrote:
Complexity, add it if you want it, just dont expect it to appear in the core books. ^_~`

Hell yeah. Thats why I love this game.

[Maliki]

Tank wrote:
Hi there. I'm new to these boards and new to C&C -- in fact I only just ordered the PHB and M&T books last night. As a long-time D&D player, I did a lot of research before moving outside of my comfort zone to a new game, and I have to admit: I'm a little scared of saying good-bye to multiclassing, feats, and monsters with class levels. (I am, however, very happy to be rid of cumbersome skills and annoying prestige classes/kits.) As a DM -- and a future CK, I suppose -- I am also concerned about a fraction of my players rioting if we decide to convert our campaign to C&C.

Rambling introductions aside, I have never read a review or a post by someone who doesn't like C&C. Do these people exist? Do they write things on the internet? Are you one of these people? I guess I'd just like to read from people of this opinion before I dive headlong into a new game.

Thanks in advance for your help and advice.

-Tank

Welcome to the Crusade!
_________________
Never throw rocks at a man with a Vorpal Sword!

[Tank]

Maliki wrote:
Welcome to the Crusade!

Thank you! As a matter of fact, I just got my books in the mail last night. I have to say, I am very impressed with the quality (high), the size (small - combined they are smaller than a Monster Manual!), and the artwork (pleasantly reminiscent of the old days). I began reading them last night, even as I went to bed, much to my wife's chagrin.

So far, I am midway through the races chapter. I love the bard, love the ranger, love the paladin, love the fighter, and love the monk. I can see barbarian rage -- I mean primal force -- leading to problems. Does anyone have a story about death at the hands of this party member? At first glance, the rogue's bonus from sneak attack seems a little puny too. Is it used often?

I have several mechanical questions as well, but they can wait until I finish reading the book and the unofficial official errata.

Let me close by saying thank you for such a warm welcome into your community.

[Breakdaddy]

Tank wrote:
I can see barbarian rage -- I mean primal force -- leading to problems. Does anyone have a story about death at the hands of this party member?

Enter my house rules for the Barbarian class:

Barbarian: The barbarian class loses and gains several abilities. He loses Primal Force, Primal Might, and Primal Will permanently. Primal Fury is modified by changing the bonuses granted to +2 to hit and +2 to damage while in Fury. The penalties remain the same (-2 to AC and -2 on INT skill checks). The ability is further modified by allowing for no chance at all to attack allies. At Level 8 the ability is enhanced in the following manner: bonuses increase to +3 to hit and +3 to damage rolls, and penalties decrease to -1 AC and -2 on all INT checks. Otherwise see the barbarian class description for how this ability works. In addition, the barbarian gains the following Ranger Class Abilities: Conceal and Survival. The Barbarian also gets +10 to base movement at all times. The Barbarian suffers from a -1 penalty on all saving throws vs. spells or magical effects that directly target him. This penalty is removed when the Barbarian reaches level 6.

These changes have been well received by my group so far. Davis is actually playing this class in my current campaign

[Zudrak]

I forgot to welcome Tank in my first post on this thread. Doh!

Welcome to the Crusade, Tank!

Happy gaming,

Zudrak
_________________
AD&D, Amish Dungeons & Dragons.

"Galstaff, ye are in a cornfield, when a moustachioed man approaches. What say ye?"

"I shun him."

-----

"Knowledge, logic, reason, and common sense serve better than a dozen rule books."

-- E. Gary Gygax