Monsters and Treasures...100% OGC?

Gorilla Spawn · Post by **Gorilla Spawn** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 7:02 pm

Hey all, I heard that this book is all OGC, is this true?

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 7:20 pm

Gorilla Spawn wrote:
Hey all, I heard that this book is all OGC, is this true?

Technically, not all of it, no. The product identity is defined; as is what is OGC. Look at the OGL in back for complete information.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Nifelhein · Post by **Nifelhein** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 7:21 pm

It must be, all the game rules in it are derivative of the OGC found on the SRD so there wasn't any choice in that. And welcome to the Troll lord boards, are you thinking of getting C&C or are you a crusader already?
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Nifelhein · Post by **Nifelhein** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 7:28 pm

Just to clear it up, all rules content in it are OGC, if I am not mistaken, not the logos, artwork and trademark, as well as the trade dress of the book. But since Pete there is the one who drew the illustrations in it, I think a non-rules answer was expected
_________________
"We cannot live only for ourselves. A thousand fibers connect us with our fellow men; and among those fibers, as sympathetic threads, our actions run as causes, and they come back to us as effects." - Attributed to Herman Melville.

Gorilla Spawn · Post by **Gorilla Spawn** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 7:36 pm

Hi all, I am thinking of picking this up, for playing but also for some other developing. I guess i should have been more specific...I meant if most of the text, especially monster descriptions, is OGC.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 7:38 pm

*chuckles* Well. I like these sorts of things to be clear. As I said, 'technically', all of it isn't OGC.

Avoids missunderstandings down the road when one is specific. ^_^

The OGL in the back of the book covers the answer though. ^_^
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Nifelhein · Post by **Nifelhein** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 7:41 pm

Yes they are, listed in their entirety in the OGL and legally they must be that way, though a given way of writing something has been debated as possible to copyright.
_________________
"We cannot live only for ourselves. A thousand fibers connect us with our fellow men; and among those fibers, as sympathetic threads, our actions run as causes, and they come back to us as effects." - Attributed to Herman Melville.

Gorilla Spawn · Post by **Gorilla Spawn** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 7:44 pm

Nifelhein wrote:
Yes they are, listed in their entirety in the OGL and legally they must be that way, though a given way of writing something has been debated as possible to copyright.

Well, the point I am concerned about is whether TLG intends for the text to be OGC. I can't look at it until I buy it, but if they specifically designate it as such then no worries.

Nifelhein · Post by **Nifelhein** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 7:53 pm

Designated, and clear, from the OGL at the end of teh book:

pages 4-85, "Monsters"

This covers every single monster entry and rules for monsters, including the descriptions, which are not exempt in the product identity section. Youa re the same Gorilla Spawn from Eden Boards, right?
_________________
"We cannot live only for ourselves. A thousand fibers connect us with our fellow men; and among those fibers, as sympathetic threads, our actions run as causes, and they come back to us as effects." - Attributed to Herman Melville.

Gorilla Spawn · Post by **Gorilla Spawn** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 7:57 pm

Yep, same guy!

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:10 pm

What development? Not that I have any say over what I wrote, but I am curious how these things are to be used. It has always been my understanding that only stats are Open. The descriptions, including those of the special abilities, are not covered by the license, but I could be wrong (not having a need to care, since anything I write goes to the Trolls anyway...) So, I would say: read the designator for what is considered Open, and use it, in accordance with the OGL. If something doesn't say its Open, assume it is not. Obviously, images are never included, so you can't use them.

Gorilla Spawn · Post by **Gorilla Spawn** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:15 pm

serleran wrote:
What development? Not that I have any say over what I wrote, but I am curious how these things are to be used. It has always been my understanding that only stats are Open. The descriptions, including those of the special abilities, are not covered by the license, but I could be wrong (not having a need to care, since anything I write goes to the Trolls anyway...) So, I would say: read the designator for what is considered Open, and use it, in accordance with the OGL. If something doesn't say its Open, assume it is not. Obviously, images are never included, so you can't use them.

Ok, well I'll have to see the exact wording of the license. No fear, I certainly will not use any text unless is is designated OGC. As for the "development," I'm working on a project that will be available for free as a pdf, and may be available at a small cost in print (mostly to pay for the art). I will use text from the WotC SRD, but many of their monster descriptions are bare bones. If TLG has kindly provided much of their monster text, then I'd like to use some of it. I could rewrite it but why reinvent the wheel?

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:42 pm

*smiles* To make the 'wheel' your own.

You never know, you may very well come up with a twist the M&T doesn't cover. ^_^
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Jason Vey · Post by **Jason Vey** » Sun Apr 29, 2007 1:07 am

Gorilla Spawn wrote:
Yep, same guy!

Hey, I know you! You're the guy that spearheaded that kickass netbook for D&Z!

Gorilla Spawn · Post by **Gorilla Spawn** » Sun Apr 29, 2007 3:07 am

The Grey Elf wrote:
Hey, I know you! You're the guy that spearheaded that kickass netbook for D&Z!

heh heh, hey I know you too! You wrote the kickass book that my kick ass book is "aping!"

After AtZ comes out we are cooking up a sci-fi netbook in the same vein. It would be pretty sweet to have material in it from an actual author of the book....(hint hint nudge nudge)

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sun Apr 29, 2007 3:43 am

I know if I were to download something and it were, basically, a copy of something else, I'd feel ripped off. I prefer "reinventing the wheel" but I'm stupid.

Grazzt · Post by **Grazzt** » Sun Apr 29, 2007 4:07 am

serleran wrote:
It has always been my understanding that only stats are Open. The descriptions, including those of the special abilities, are not covered by the license...

Looks like all text with the monsters is OGC. According to page 128 in M&T it says "all text appearing in the following sections and subsections, listed by page number and heading or subheading: page 4-85, "Monsters"...

Looks like only the 'standard' stuff is IP (logos, trade dress, etc).

Scott Greene

Necromancer Games

Nifelhein · Post by **Nifelhein** » Sun Apr 29, 2007 11:28 am

Hey, welcome to C&C then, Gorilla Spawn, I am with Jason in Serpents and Simians being great, it truly is. On the OGC thing, Grazzt covered it, just like I pointed before, since I actually am a lawyer (though not in the US) I will try and give you a little help here.

To follow the OGL all game rules derived from the SRD must be OGC, descriptions, illustrations, the product's very layout and visual identity don't. In M&T the descriptions needed not be OGC at all, they are pure text and have no rules in them, so they could be defined product identity. The OGL on the book, however, specifically states that all the content on pages 4-85, under "Monsters" is OGC, thus the descriptions are placed inside the OGC.

While it may seem harsh to have your worked used in the way Gorilla Spawn seems to be seeking to use, I would like to remind you that the OGL requires him to place your product name on the section 15, and Gorilla Spawn there could also contact the trolls and present his ideas and if there is an agreement he might also thanks the Trolls for the kick ass descriptions provided in the Monster & Treasure book for the Castles & Crusades game.

I say it requires an agreement because to do that he would have to get authorization from the Trolls to use trademarks and copyright information the Trolls own (Castles & Crusades, Troll Lord Games). Even citing the original author for the descriptions. This could be considered the more polite way of using it, but he can use it without this anyway. Depending on his intent this may or may not interest the trolls, as this carries a free plug for their game.

Gorilla Spawn, you might want to check the M&T preview to see if the description of the monsters will really be of any use to you (link), it has much less than what is in the book though. Also, the M&T book does not contain every creature from the SRD in it, so you might have to end up making a description for them yourself. And the M&T book has a little problem in serl's name in the section 15 of the OGL, he is not Robery, but Robert.
The preview for M&T has the OGL from the book in it, so it can help clear this for you as well, Gorilla, the monsters section of the book starts on page 4 and ends at page 85. I copied the designation of OGC and Product Identity from the OGL below.

Quote:
Designation of Open Game Content: The following is designated Open Game Content pursuant to the OGL v1.0a: all text appearing in the following sections and subsections, listed by page number and heading or sub-heading: pages 4-85, Monsters; pages 86-127, Treasure. Also, the following open game content related words, phrases, and abbreviations wherever they appear: Strength (Str), Dexterity (Dex), Constitution (Con), Intelligence (Int), Wisdom (Wis), Charisma (Cha), Class, Fighter, Ranger, Rogue, Assassin, Barbarian, Monk, Wizard, Illusionist, Cleric, Druid, Knight, Bard, Paladin, Race, Demi-human, Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, Half-Elf, Halfling, Half-Orc, Hit Dice (HD), Hit Points (HP), Alignment, Lawful Good (LG), Lawful Neutral (LN), Lawful Evil (LE), Neutral (N), Neutral Good (NG), Neutral Evil (NE), Chaotic Good (CG), Chaotic Neutral (CN), Chaotic Evil (CE), Level, to hit, Damage, Experience Point, Saving Throw, Player Character (PC), Non-player Character (NPC), Turn Undead, Spell, Arcane, Divine, Magic, Spell Resistance, Item, Equipment, Armor, Weapon, Potion, Rod, Staff, Wand, Scroll, Ring, Wondrous Item, Artifact, Cursed, Bonus, d4, d6, d8, d10, d12, d20, d%, round, and turn.

Designation of Product Identity: Product identity is not Open Game Content. The following is designated as product identity pursuant to OGL v1.0a(1)(e) and (7): (A) product and product line names, including Castles & Crusades, Castles & Crusades: Players Handbook, Castles & Crusades: Monsters and Treasures, Castles & Crusades: Castle Keepers Guide; (B) logos, identifying marks, and trade dress; (C) all artwork, logos, symbols, graphic designs, depictions, likenesses, formats, poses, concepts, themes and graphic, photographic and other visual representations; (D) logos and trademarks, including Castles & Crusades, Castle Keeper, SIEGE engine, and Troll Lord Games, or any other trademark or registered trademark clearly identified as product identity by the owner of the product identity, and which specifically excludes the open game content.

An interesting thing to note is that this does not mean the PGC is not copyrighted, but as long as the terms of the license are followed, the copyrights are not infringed in any way, thus credit to the original company and author goes into section 15 of the OGL else you are breaking the OGL.

I hope it helps those without any knowledge into legalese.

Cheers,

Nif.
_________________
"We cannot live only for ourselves. A thousand fibers connect us with our fellow men; and among those fibers, as sympathetic threads, our actions run as causes, and they come back to us as effects." - Attributed to Herman Melville.

Gorilla Spawn · Post by **Gorilla Spawn** » Sun Apr 29, 2007 1:45 pm

Thanks for the info!

Please note that I am not planning to create a different monsters book and change the polish just to resell what TLG has created. I can understand sentiment that people might not like to have OGC reused...but isn't that the point of making something OGC?

I would respect TLG's request out of courtesy if they asked me not to use text they have made OGC, but I suspect that if a company makes so much material available they do intend that someone will come along and use it.

For a few different reasons I do not want to publicly discuss the project I'm working on just yet, but it will not compete with C&C. It will actually compliment it. As I mentioned above, the PDF of the final product will be a free download, and a print version will be available at just a few dollars above print costs to help me cover some of my art costs.

Post by **Breakdaddy** » Sun Apr 29, 2007 2:14 pm

Gorilla Spawn wrote:
Thanks for the info!

Please note that I am not planning to create a different monsters book and change the polish just to resell what TLG has created. I can understand sentiment that people might not like to have OGC reused...but isn't that the point of making something OGC?

I would respect TLG's request out of courtesy if they asked me not to use text they have made OGC, but I suspect that if a company makes so much material available they do intend that someone will come along and use it.

For a few different reasons I do not want to publicly discuss the project I'm working on just yet, but it will not compete with C&C. It will actually compliment it. As I mentioned above, the PDF of the final product will be a free download, and a print version will be available at just a few dollars above print costs to help me cover some of my art costs.

Sounds interesting. Steve and the gang are pretty cooperative about things as long as you keep it legal. I suspect that your project will not meet with criticism from the Trolls, but again, legality is an issue, particularly if you wish to sell your work.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sun Apr 29, 2007 3:16 pm

Oh, its not that. Its kinda flattering, in a way. I just, personally, prefer to create my own stuff... just because I'm like that. I also have exposure to a lot of RPG material, so I get disappointed when I buy/download one thing, and its got exact copies of something else I've seen already... cause I feel like I'm paying for what I already have, in a sense.

But, the OGL was meant to be used, and making things Open is the only way to do that.

Gorilla Spawn · Post by **Gorilla Spawn** » Sun Apr 29, 2007 3:56 pm

serleran wrote:
I just, personally, prefer to create my own stuff...

Me too, but the bottom line is that I am only a "part time" hobby publisher really, and I simply don't have time to spend many more weeks writing. I already have spent many weeks on writing up the project, but I teach at a university and am working on finishing my PhD, so I need to cut corners where I can. I can adapt OGC to my needs a lot faster than writing it from scratch, and for that I am very grateful to TLG and other companies who have made material OGC.

Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 1:14 am

Grazzt wrote:
Looks like all text with the monsters is OGC. According to page 128 in M&T it says "all text appearing in the following sections and subsections, listed by page number and heading or subheading: page 4-85, "Monsters"...

Looks like only the 'standard' stuff is IP (logos, trade dress, etc).

Scott Greene

Necromancer Games

Hi Scott. Glad to see you 'round here again.
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Grazzt · Post by **Grazzt** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 11:22 am

Rhuvein wrote:
Hi Scott. Glad to see you 'round here again.

why thank you. Im around quite a bit. Just don't post very often.
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Scott Greene
Necromancer Games

Grazzt · Post by **Grazzt** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 11:23 am

Gorilla Spawn wrote:
Thanks for the info!

I can understand sentiment that people might not like to have OGC reused...but isn't that the point of making something OGC?

Yeppers. That's why we made all three Tomes completely 100% OGC. For reuse by others. (Only things in Tome that are not open are the standard things [artwork, etc] and a couple of names of planes we invented....all text*, monster names*, descripts*, etc....100% open for anyone and everyone).

*includes the names and text of all the 1e conversions we stuck in Tome 1 as well (WotC was most generous in allowing us to convert tons of 1e stuff and then declare it all as OGC)
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Scott Greene
Necromancer Games

Gorilla Spawn · Post by **Gorilla Spawn** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 12:59 pm

Grazzt wrote:
Yeppers. That's why we made all three Tomes completely 100% OGC. For reuse by others. (Only things in Tome that are not open are the standard things [artwork, etc] and a couple of names of planes we invented....all text*, monster names*, descripts*, etc....100% open for anyone and everyone).

*includes the names and text of all the 1e conversions we stuck in Tome 1 as well (WotC was most generous in allowing us to convert tons of 1e stuff and then declare it all as OGC)

Cool, thanks for the info Scott. I may have a gander at your books as well. I am interested in the descriptive text for monsters mostly.

Jason Vey · Post by **Jason Vey** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 7:03 pm

Grazzt wrote:
*includes the names and text of all the 1e conversions we stuck in Tome 1 as well (WotC was most generous in allowing us to convert tons of 1e stuff and then declare it all as OGC)

I know I'm late to this game, but congratulations, Scott. You just sold a copy of Tome 1.

Nifelhein · Post by **Nifelhein** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 8:27 pm

I own the Tome II and wanted to get the others, even though i don't plan on using D20 anymore, it really is that good.
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"We cannot live only for ourselves. A thousand fibers connect us with our fellow men; and among those fibers, as sympathetic threads, our actions run as causes, and they come back to us as effects." - Attributed to Herman Melville.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 10:27 pm

Yup, ToH I, II, and III are just pure fantasy monster GOLD. I use them for C&C and d20.

..........................................Omote

FPQ
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Gorilla Spawn · Post by **Gorilla Spawn** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 3:15 pm

Just an FYI. I ended up not using any OGC material from the Trolls. It's great quality stuff, but it actually turned out to be faster for me to write it myself in this particular situation (in combination with SRD material from WotC).

Monsters and Treasures...100% OGC?

Monsters and Treasures...100% OGC?

Re: Monsters and Treasures...100% OGC?