Troll Lord Games

My story's pretty typical: loved D&D back in the day, jumped into 3.5 with gusto but got sick of the rules and complexity, and now I'm looking for something faster and more user-friendly.

C&C looks ideal, but I have a reservation about miniatures.

In several "sell me on C&C" threads, I've seen the removal of battlemats and miniature-based combat presented as a good thing. Trouble is, I love using miniatures! I'm also a wargamer, so for me the introduction of a usable tabletop combat system was one of the best things about D&D 3.5.

So, my question is: are miniatures entirely absent from C&C and/or are they easily used in conjunction with the combat system?

Mini's can be best used as place markers. Not neccessary, but useful for those, like me for instance, who are more visually oriented. ^_^
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Peter Bradley

Minis are generally only used as points of reference, rather than as tactical pieces, though they certainly can be, if one wishes to implement a bit more detailed rules... certainly some aspects are already present, such as cover and concealment. C&C can use minis, but there is a great many of us who prefer to not use them (I don't like them, because too many bad experiences have soured me to them, though I do like to paint them.)

The C&C game certainly doesn't take away from the battle-mat using miniature gamers, that is for sure. The rules regarding this in the PHB are very basic, but they are in there none-the-less, from movement to the bonuses based on flanking and rear positioning. It's all there. If you want more of a wargaming approach, there is plenty of room to work with.

...........................................Omote

FPQ
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> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

Thanks for the prompt replies.

Quote:
The rules regarding this in the PHB are very basic, but they are in there none-the-less, from movement to the bonuses based on flanking and rear positioning.

That's good to know. The 3.5 rules are a bit too dense and slow for something which isn't a pure wargame, but I enjoy the tactical aspects.

From what I can tell, C&C is easily tweaked to accomodate different playing styles.

Hairfoot wrote:
From what I can tell, C&C is easily tweaked to accomodate different playing styles.

If you've played RPGs in the past, or especially if you've run games before... easy is the operative word.

...................................................Omote

FPQ
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> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

Yes, easy is definitely the operative word for using C&C how you wish to.

I have never run C&C without miniatures. Most of the C&C stuff I have ran was actually made for Basic D&D, and came with fold-out battlemats, prepainted with the dungeon location and a bunch of fold-up paper figures. They work great.

What C&C does NOT do for miniatures is state how many "spaces" a character takes up, or define reach, etc-- these are for the CK to decide.

However, the book lists character movement speeds, and weapon ranges, which if you are using 5' squares/hexes are easy enough to figure out.
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My group has run roughly 50% of the current campaign without minis.

We have recently begun using them for more "tactical" combat. This has bogged down our combats slightly, it still hasn't changed the use of the abstractions possible with the SIEGE Engine. It's been fun.
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Having picked up C&C fresh from 3.5e D&D, we are using the same minis and battlemats we used when 3.5 was the system played. We never used mats when we were kids playing BD&D or AD&D, but we have always utilized minis in the game, for marching order at the very least.
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Hi,

Yeah, since a very traumatic adventure with a horrible DM in first edition, I have used minis ever since.

Nothing like having hand to hand monster attack spell caster in the 4th rank in a single file hallway to push the usefulness home.

wolfram

Wolfram_Stout wrote:
Hi,

Yeah, since a very traumatic adventure with a horrible DM in first edition, I have used minis ever since.

Nothing like having hand to hand monster attack spell caster in the 4th rank in a single file hallway to push the usefulness home.

Gawds, doesn't that suck when GMs do that stuff. I had a GM who would always roll randomly to see who would get attacked, almost always not taking into account the positioning of my PC that I have described to him over and over again...
..........................................Omote

FPQ
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> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

It's easy to use minis with the combat system. Don't expect to micromanage everything with flanking, AOO, and other 3e-isms, though. You just move your guys around and make reasonable decisions. I had great fun the other day running a simple dungeon combat with a party of 4 low-level characters against some shadow goblins armed with missile weapons. Good stuff. The combat was fast-paced, and dramatic. At one point the barbarian wanted to do something very Cleave-like, so I said, "Sure, on a natural 20 your blow will carry through into the second goblin." He seemed happy with that, but ended up rolling a 6, anyway
I didn't think I'd like rolling inish every round, but it turned out to work great! The countdown is a lot faster on d10 than d20. I always used to forget where I was in the sequence when counting down from 20. Rolling inish anew each round seemed to give the players who had rolled low new hope each round, and it also freed things up from becoming too predicable, since the order characters could act each round changed.

I'm also giving away XP by the book, at least for now. I used to give story awards equally to everyone at the end of the night, just for showing up and participating. Now, since I've got a solid group on Monday nights, I'm trying out new ways (for me, at least) of handing out XP. So far, so good! They gathered XP for the goblins, a little more for the treasure they found, and a little more still for finishing the story arc.

Overall, everyone seems really happy with switching over to C&C from 3.5. Most of my players are casual or storytellers, anyway, and the rules-light approach of C&C appeals to them. It sure appeals to me, since it's a lot more like the game I started playing in 1980, but with modern innovations and streamlining built in.

Omote wrote:
Gawds, doesn't that suck when GMs do that stuff. I had a GM who would always roll randomly to see who would get attacked, almost always not taking into account the positioning of my PC that I have described to him over and over again...
..........................................Omote

FPQ

We must have had the exact same DM.

But, not to threadjack.

Mini-use is a great example of the strength of C&C. You can easily upgrade the level of tactics by adding Minis (or markers of any sort). Once you start using them, it may make sense for you to add some sort of AOO.

I am going to put in AOOs for Spell-casting (including scrolls but not wands) and for ranged weapons. Seems simple enough, but we will see.

Wolfram