Funny things about C&C:

[Treebore]

I alsohave all class skills treated as if they have a Prime stat designated. So I haven't really seen any problem with any of this.

I do agree that having WIS be Prime for a Ranger does make more sense.

If I ever remember to add it to my house rules document I think I'll make it official for my campaigns.

[BASH MAN]

Treebore wrote:
I also have all class skills treated as if they have a Prime stat designated. So I haven't really seen any problem with any of this.

I do agree that having WIS be Prime for a Ranger does make more sense.

If I ever remember to add it to my house rules document I think I'll make it official for my campaigns.

Yes, but by having all class skills considered prime, you don't have to really wring your hands about STR being a prime for the class. All rangers having good STR saves is a lot less aggravating that only human rangers are competent at tracking and climbing.
_________________
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[DangerDwarf]

BASH MAN wrote:
All rangers having good STR saves is a lot less aggravating that only human rangers are competent at tracking and climbing.

I disagree with the assessment that only human rangers are competent at both climbing/stealth and tracking.

By virtue of them even having the skills as a class ability makes them competent. Added to that competency is their class level as it increases.

Plus, look at racial class modifiers. Half orcs gain +2 to tracking. If you put their 2nd prime in dex the +2 for race and +1 for level cuts the non-prime in half even at level 1.

Elves get +2 to move silent. Throw their 2nd prime into wisdom and let their natural abilities help compensate for the non dex prime.

Again though, I don't see the big problem. I don't have a problem with a character not being maxed out in all of his abilities, you simply have to make a choice which area he will specialize in. BY virtue of him getting to add his class level to his class abilities anyways will ensure he increases in competence in the other areas.

Thats another reason I don't like making all class abilities act as primes in my games either. I like my players to choose which areas they are going to be better in through the prime system.

[Treebore]

DangerDwarf wrote:
I disagree with the assessment that only human rangers are competent at both climbing/stealth and tracking.

By virtue of them even having the skills as a class ability makes them competent. Added to that competency is their class level as it increases.

Plus, look at racial class modifiers. Half orcs gain +2 to tracking. If you put their 2nd prime in dex the +2 for race and +1 for level cuts the non-prime in half even at level 1.

Elves get +2 to move silent. Throw their 2nd prime into wisdom and let their natural abilities help compensate for the non dex prime.

Again though, I don't see the big problem. I don't have a problem with a character not being maxed out in all of his abilities, you simply have to make a choice which area he will specialize in. BY virtue of him getting to add his class level to his class abilities anyways will ensure he increases in competence in the other areas.

Thats another reason I don't like making all class abilities act as primes in my games either. I like my players to choose which areas they are going to be better in through the prime system.

I debated on this, of course. If I remember correctly I decided to go with all class abilities being treated as if the requisite stat is Prime because that made/makes more sense to me.

Saying that someone who has the class, and therefore presumably received some pretty intense training to perform their class abilites, can't do it very well because their stat isn't Prime makes a lot less sense to me.

So rather than come up with another way to "micro manage" it with more intensive house rules, I decided to just go with what I felt was more sensible to me and could be covered with one sentence in my house rules document.

So I "see" the arguments/views both ways, I just chose to do it in this manner. Simple, easy to remember, and hasn't ruined anything for me.

[jman5000]

however, all of these alternatives are house rules and are not BtB. When I brought up the Ranger oddity, I did mention this was only for the munchkins out there.

by the book, a non-human ranger is at a disadvantage vs his human brethren.

Cheers,

J.

[Fiffergrund]

jman5000 wrote:
however, all of these alternatives are house rules and are not BtB. When I brought up the Ranger oddity, I did mention this was only for the munchkins out there.

by the book, a non-human ranger is at a disadvantage vs his human brethren.

Cheers,

J.

Yes, but they have the distinct advantage of being able to see in the dark, which isn't trivial.
The way I look at it, it's a choice between the third prime and the advantages of being demi-human, which can be substantial. There have certainly been games where I've been glad to have enhanced vision, hearing, and move silently abilities much more than I used anti-poison abilities.
_________________
Sir Fiffergrund, Lord Marshal of the Castle and Crusade Society.

He Who Hides Behind The Elephant's Back

[Prince of Happiness]

I had a question. With the spells Minor Image and Major Image...exactly how much damage *can* you do with them? Because otherwise...it's illusions of Meteor Swarm aaaalllllll day, baby!

[Fizz]

I do not like the idea of treating class abilities as though the attribute is prime.

IMO, this takes away from the variability of classes. An Int prime assassin is very different from a Cha prime assassin, etc. The only way they differ is in how they do non-class abilities. And they won't be focusing on those sorts of things anyways.

In other words, you're removing a huge reason of having primes in the first place.

However, rangers do seem to be in a unique place in this regard. They have the highest dependence on their choice of primes of any class. I brought this up on the Dragonsfoot forums a while back. See http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=22083

-Fizz

[old school gamer]

Breakdaddy wrote:
Dont laugh, I got killed by a house cat.

Beware
http://www.llbbl.com/data/RPG-motivatio ... get33.html

[old school gamer]

serleran wrote:
Heh, well, I won't say the ranger class is funky... it is. But, I will defend it.
Personally, I think ranger makes more sense with Wisdom Prime, but I have a different tree-hugger hippie way of viewing the class.

When I first picked up my copy of the players handbook at Dragons Lair the first thing I went to was the Ranger class. I shouted out loud, YES!, they brought back the first edition Ranger! IMO, this was always the best Ranger class there was and C&C made it even better.

[Treebore]

Fiffergrund wrote:
Yes, but they have the distinct advantage of being able to see in the dark, which isn't trivial.
The way I look at it, it's a choice between the third prime and the advantages of being demi-human, which can be substantial. There have certainly been games where I've been glad to have enhanced vision, hearing, and move silently abilities much more than I used anti-poison abilities.

I agree with Fiif, and is why I went with having class abilities being treated as Prime.

Fizz is also completely right. IT does change the importance of Prime Stats with regards to class skills only.

However, it still has the desired effects on any action a character takes outside of their class skills, such as listening, seeing, jumping, climbing, riding a horse (unless a Knight), playing a mandolin, moving silently (for other than the thief/assassin/ranger), and so on.

So I opted for allowing class skills to break the Prime rule, since they are narrow and well defined. This leaves a substantial list of skills and actions effected purely by the relevant stat being Prime or not.

So selecting Primes is still important, and class skills are still easy for the class to perform/attempt because of their specific training. Now other skills that I give classes, that are not "class skills", but general skills, are directly effected by the relevant stat being Prime or non-prime.

The way I look at this is from my experience with tying knots. I was taught how to tie a broad range of knots in the NAvy. However, I didn't concentrate or focus on that skill. So I am far from an expert with regards to that skill, even though I received training to be one.

So this falls under an area defined by Primes.

Anyways, its been working for me.

[serleran]

Quote:
they brought back the first edition Ranger!

Maybe in flavor, but not in toto. The C&C ranger loses spellcasting which was something the AD&D ranger had, though, its not a big deal to give it back (just changes the XP chart somewhat; if you're interested, I think its been posted somewhere before, but I can re-post it.)

[Treebore]

serleran wrote:
Maybe in flavor, but not in toto. The C&C ranger loses spellcasting which was something the AD&D ranger had, though, its not a big deal to give it back (just changes the XP chart somewhat; if you're interested, I think its been posted somewhere before, but I can re-post it.)

For me it is a return to the 1E Ranger. Mostly because I hardly ever used their spell abilities, and I played several to 9th level and a couple above 12th.

In fact, of the character sheets I still have, I don't even have their spells listed. So I apparently never used their spellcasting abillity. Or used it so minimally I never needed to list the spells.

I would like to see the spellcating version, though, Just in case. I probably did copy or download it, but I don't remember.

[DangerDwarf]

Treebore wrote:
For me it is a return to the 1E Ranger. Mostly because I hardly ever used their spell abilities, and I played several to 9th level and a couple above 12th.

In fact, of the character sheets I still have, I don't even have their spells listed. So I apparently never used their spellcasting abillity. Or used it so minimally I never needed to list the spells.

I would like to see the spellcating version, though, Just in case. I probably did copy or download it, but I don't remember.

Same here. I played a lot of rangers back in earlier editions but never used nor particularly cared for the spell casting aspect. Most of the characters from literature that were archetypical rangers never made use of them either.

[SavageRobby]

In the Dragonfoot thread referenced above, I like the idea of not having a set Prime for classes. Most of them would probably use the Prime already listed, but in some cases I could see opting for different Primes.

Is there a downside to this I'm not seeing?

[serleran]

As asked, here is the ranger variant:

BtH as Fighter (+1 / Level) - 500 XP

2d8 HP at Level 1 - 800 XP

All Weapons - 250

All Armor - 250

Combat Maraudar - 200

Conceal - 50

Move Silently - 50

Scale - 50

Survival - 50

Track - 100

Traps - 50

Listen - 50

Extra Attack @ 7th - 10000

Divine Caster @ 9th: 2 0-level; 1 1st - 800

Arcane Caster @ 11th: 2 0-level; 1st - 900

XP Progression

2401

4401

8801

17601

35201

80401

160881

322401

644801

967201

1289601

+322400 / Level

Spell Progression - Divine

@ 9th: 2 0-level, 1 1st

@ 10th: 3 / 2

@ 11th: 4 / 3 / 1

@ 12th: 4 / 3 / 2

Spell Progression - Arcane:

@ 11th: 2 0-level, 1 1st

@ 12th: 3 / 2

[alcyone]

The "Eyes of Doom" is the best magic item evar!!!

Cheers,

J.

Truth.

[Arduin]

Eyes of Doom is a great item.