Attribute Checks 'n Primes finalized:

[slimykuotoan]

Just to clear up Primes and attributes once and for all for my players, because they're alittle muddled after checking the forums:

"You only add level to defined skills and class-related activities. Lifting portcullis' is not in the Fighter's class description."

"You only add level to primes."

"You add level to checks only if it's a class ability."

"You always add level, unless it's an ability of another class."

Can anyone give a definitive ruling on this?

Thanks.

[angelius]

It's kinda ad hoc. But really it doesnt matter too much. Cause I just figure how hard I want it to be (relative to their level) and make them roll. Their level just ends up being a +/- to the roll.
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[Dagger]

slimykuotoan wrote:
"You only add level to defined skills and class-related activities. Lifting portcullis' is not in the Fighter's class description."

You add levels to class skills and actions that fall under the archetype of the class. That latter part is where the CK's judgement comes in to play.

slimykuotoan wrote:
"You only add level to primes."

Whether the action is checked against a Prime is irrelevant. See above.

slimykuotoan wrote:
"You add level to checks only if it's a class ability."

See above.

slimykuotoan wrote:
"You always add level, unless it's an ability of another class."

I agree with that, unless the action isn't part of the archetype of the class of the character.

slimykuotoan wrote:
Can anyone give a definitive ruling on this?

Only each individual CK can. The rules are meant to be their servant.

[Fizz]

You add class levels to anything that is a class ability, or anything that the CK rules to be within the domain of the class.

The CK can make this decision based on many things: character background, class archetype, etc. Ultimately, if it's something the CK determines that the character would be knowledgable or skillful at, then class level is added.

Choice of prime has no bearing on whether class level is added.

-Fizz

[Treebore]

This is why I have class abilities be treated as Prime is selected for the releveant stat. Actually one of several reasons.

Anyways, this is how I do it. Your level is added to anything treated as Prime. Your level is added to any kind of save, whether its a Prime stat or not.

So what are your levels not added to? Anything you do based off a non prime stat and is not a class ability or is not a saving throw.

Its been working for me for over a year now. Besides, I hardly pay attention to it. So in reality I haven't really cared if it s been Prime, non-Prime, or a save. They still added level. They have still died and failed often enough for the adventures to be challenging.

So I figure why add to the liklihood that their going to fail and die?

[Fizz]

Treebore wrote:
Anyways, this is how I do it. Your level is added to anything treated as Prime. Your level is added to any kind of save, whether its a Prime stat or not.

Oh don't go confuse them Treebore. I think they were looking for the BTB rules.

-Fizz

[gideon_thorne]

slimykuotoan wrote:
"You only add level to defined skills and class-related activities. Lifting portcullis' is not in the Fighter's class description."

Lifting is a strength check wherin one adds their level, and I would think would fall into the physical prowess of a fighter. Especially since castles and fortifcations, and a general knowledge of their construction, are well within the perview of a combat oriented class.

Quote:
"You only add level to primes."

And non primes.
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[slimykuotoan]

gideon_thorne wrote:
"[You only add level to primes]

And non primes."

So you add level to every check regardless?

[Fizz]

slimykuotoan wrote:
So you add level to every check regardless?

If the check is a class ability, or within the purview of the class, yes.

Choice of prime only determines the Challenge Base (12 or 18). Primes have nothing to do with whether you add your class level or not.

-Fizz

[Dagger]

Whether the character's ability score is Prime or not is irrevelant. The Prime vs. Secondary thing is all about how good the character is at using an Attribute. This is how C&C replaces Skills... by categorizing a character as being good at a "group" of skills.... AKA good at performing actions that use a specific attribute (Dex, Con, Int, etc...).

The whole point of adding the character's level to a roll is to account for how experienced the character is. If they are attempting something outside of their character class, it makes sense that they attempt it at the same ability level as anyone else. If it's a skill that can be associated with their character class, then they should include their character level too.

[SavageRobby]

I read it like this:

* Primes determine what the base CL is (12 or 18).

* Ability mods always modify the roll.

* Class levels modify the roll unless if it is something that the character would not be trained in (through class or background).

So, a Cleric could try to listen (a Wisdom check, and therefore a Prime for a Cleric), but wouldn't add his level.

A Magic-user could try to Track, but wouldn't add his level (regardless of Prime).

What I didn't read (that I recall), but I surmised is that some class abilities others cannot try, period.

A Fighter can't try to turn undead.

A Thief can't cast spells.

[serleran]

The definitive rules:

Primes determine base difficulty. If it is Prime, the base starts at 12, and its 18 otherwise.

All class abilities allow level to be added, as do saves, even if the class ability is not Prime.

There are some ambiguous rules regarding how to adjudicate racial abilities, but they never trump having a class ability. Having both race and class ability in the same thing is the "best," but having something as a class is second-best (ie, level is added), and having it as a race is "third best."

Lifting is not a Strength check... you use the maximum press (Strength x 10) to see if the PC can lift the object; if you want to allow pressing beyond that, it would be a normal check -- I would not allow level, but the example in the book is so f'd up as to be counterproductive. Ignore it.

[slimykuotoan]

So the fighter gets to add level to 'class like' abilities and feats of strength because strength is the fighter's thing. (Like the example in the book where the fighter pushes over the statue...)

Clerics then, only add their level to turn undead (their only skill), and wisdomy things -of which there are none because the other classes have them as abilities...(spot, etc.)

[Fizz]

slimykuotoan wrote:
So the fighter gets to add level to 'class like' abilities and feats of strength because strength is the fighter's thing. (Like the example in the book where the fighter pushes over the statue...)

Clerics then, only add their level to turn undead (their only skill), and wisdomy things -of which there are none because the other classes have them as abilities...(spot, etc.)

Yes, but...

Don't base whether you add levels on the class's mandatory prime. Whether it is prime or not is irrelevant. You add the level to actions that the character ought to be good at.

I'd certainly allow a fighter to add his level when trying to determine the value of a sword (an Int check), because he's a warrior- he knows stuff about swords.

But i would not allow a wizard to add his level for the same action, even though his prime his Int. He's a wizard- he doesn't know anything about swords.

A character's level is added to anything the CK deems the character would have knowledge or training in.

-Fizz

[slimykuotoan]

Thanks, this' clearing up a lot for both me and my players.

So what do you guys have the barbarian add his level to?

[SavageRobby]

slimykuotoan wrote:
Clerics then, only add their level to turn undead (their only skill), and wisdomy things -of which there are none because the other classes have them as abilities...(spot, etc.)

But I would give the Cleric their level on checks involving religion, religious rituals, and social interactions where the Cleric's specific knowledge/training could be important, for example, knowing what the evil god's artifact does (and why no one in the party should touch it), or trying to to calm down an angry horde of villagers.

On the other hand, if the Fighter was trying to calm down down the crowd with calm words, I wouldn't give the Fighter his levels on the roll. But, if the same Fighter were to try to intimidate the crowd into submission, I would.

[Fizz]

slimykuotoan wrote:
Thanks, this' clearing up a lot for both me and my players.

So what do you guys have the barbarian add his level to?

Well, certainly most Strength checks. Also any check involving physical toughness (endurance, etc).

Barbarians are also fearsome, so any attempt to scare or intimidate another character (Cha check).

And depending on the character's background, a few outdoors skills might work too. Boating, mountaineering, etc. Just so long as they don't infringe on the ranger's abilities.

I'm sure others have ideas too.

-Fizz

[Treebore]

slimykuotoan wrote:
Thanks, this' clearing up a lot for both me and my players.

So what do you guys have the barbarian add his level to?

This is why I like to use the 3E skills list the way I do (read my house rules document if you don't remember), it gives both the players and I a solid list of expectations upon which level will be added to a check. If it isn't on the skills list or a class ability, or something that falls under the Prime stat (such as STR and breaking through a door, lifting a boulder, etc...) then they don't add level.

So the list of what they don't get to add level to is pretty short in my games.

[concobar]

what isnt in black and white in the book I just adjudicate on the spot.

[Fizz]

Treebore wrote:
or something that falls under the Prime stat (such as STR and breaking through a door, lifting a boulder, etc...) then they don't add level.

But to clarify, that is a HOUSE rule. Adding level to anything with a Prime stat is NOT a BTB rule. (And removes the point of primes in the first place, imo.)

Always remember SK, that primes and adding level are totally separate things. Anyone who says otherwise is house-ruling.

-Fizz

[slimykuotoan]

Would it screw up the game too much to houserule: You only add level to Primes, provided the skill is not a skill of another class?

[Fizz]

slimykuotoan wrote:
Would it screw up the game too much to houserule: You only add level to Primes, provided the skill is not a skill of another class?

Well, it makes everything much more one-dimensional. You'd be giving essentially a double-bonus to primes (benefits of prime and ALWAYS level) and a double-penalty to non-primes (not prime and NEVER level).

It'd be a power-gamers way to go i think- everyone would be uber-specialized.

I don't like it myself. I think it defeats the purpose of primes, and would take away from one of the best parts of the game: the distinction of training vs attribute know-how.

-Fizz

[Dagger]

slimykuotoan wrote:
Would it screw up the game too much to houserule: You only add level to Primes, provided the skill is not a skill of another class?

I don't think it would screw up the game. It's not like you are messing with combat or the power levels of the characters. The real effect is it takes you a little bit farther away from the traditional archetypes (Fighter with Intelligence Prime pulling off miraculous feats of logic). But hey, C&C is flexible for a reason, so go for it.

[slimykuotoan]

The class skills just seem a bit unbalanced:

The rogue can add level to listen, move silently, open lock, pick pockets, disable traps, climb, decipher script, hide, tumble...

While the cleric can perhaps add level to knowledge religion checks...

And the fighter gets to add level to pushing stuff over.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I might have to use the 3rd edition players handbook for class skills.

[Eisenmann]

slimykuotoan wrote:
The class skills just seem a bit unbalanced:

The rogue can add level to listen, move silently, open lock, pick pockets, disable traps, climb, decipher script, hide, tumble...

While the cleric can perhaps add level to knowledge religion checks...

And the fighter gets to add level to pushing stuff over.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I might have to use the 3rd edition players handbook for class skills.

I thought about going that route and it really didn't work out for me that well. I also worked out a skill system called Edge. It kind of takes all the class skills and genericizes some of it a bit for class flexibility. Even after doing all that work, I don't really use it. Instead, I live and die by adjudicating whether to allow adding level or not on the fly. My players haven't minded. Instead I grafted into C&C, the aspect system from FATE/Spirit of the Century and it has worked even better than expected.

[serleran]

OK, don't take this wrong, but:

Quote:
The rogue can add level to listen, move silently, open lock, pick pockets, disable traps, climb, decipher script, hide, tumble...

Wow, 90% Dex-based activities. That's a "stretch" of the automatic Dex Prime, for sure. Besides, a rogue is a skill based class whereas a cleric is a spell based class, giving them wholly different purposes and directions. You're stuck in a d20 rut, and its quite sad, because you're failing to see that the classes are not mean tto balance against each other... there is no such thing in C&C.

Seriously, there are classes that have 10 skills (like rogue) and those with zero (like fighter.) Technically, these aren't even skills... they are class abilities, but hey, use skills if it helps you define them. Each class does what its supposed to do, without regard for what the other classes do, or don't do... they were not meant to be cross-referenced for holes or internal consistency, other than to determine the relative power of X compared to Y (the fighter is the baselines class, by the way.) So, if a class is "skill based" it is actually less powerful (and more powerful) because it advances very fast (and because of that, saves are tons easier for the class...) but they have little to do other than use those skills, so it is up to the CK to make it so. The others, like a cleric, can do what he wants, basically, as he just gets spells. Sure, a CK can say "you prayed for X and Z, but you only received W..." but the PC still gets to use that W (even if its just to cast it to get rid of it;) if there are no traps, for example, a rogue never gets to use that skill, ever.

Do not try to "balance" the classes... that is what their divergent XP charts are for. Its been done for you.

[Fizz]

I agree with Serleran's comments. You're stuck in 3E thinking.

Instead of thinking `look at all those skills the rogue has', why aren't you saying `look at all those spells the cleric has'?

While i have nothing against secondary skills systems, 3E's is too regimented- it's the opposite to C&C philosophy.

In C&C there is nothing stopping your character from trying just about anything. No arbitrary required ranks or feats, etc. In 3E you're relying on the books to tell you what you can (and can't) do.

You used the example of the cleric making Knowledge (religion) checks, as though that were his only `skill'. But that's not the case at all. That example was only to illustrate how you can decide if your character gets to add his level to the check.

If a cleric grew up by the sea, he could very well get his level bonus to swimming or fishing checks. Let's see 3E do that.

Break free of the regimented books- let your imagination go wild.

-Fizz

[DangerDwarf]

slimykuotoan wrote:
Would it screw up the game too much to houserule: You only add level to Primes, provided the skill is not a skill of another class?

Like Fizz said, it makes for a rather 1 dimensional character. And some oddities.

That would mean that human wizard who doesn't have strength as a prime, who was raised around the ocean and ships wouldn't add his level to swimming checks. But the desert nomad fighter who has never seen a body of water would add his level to swim checks.

I dislike the idea of utilizing the d20 skill list as well. What if my fighter is high born and as a youth was educated in the kingdom nobility, heraldry and what have you. It's not a d20 class skill for him so no level adding for that?

Character concept, background and a little common sense applied will let you know when you should and should not add level to a roll. A list shouldn't have to do that.

[slimykuotoan]

DangerDwarf wrote:
Character concept, background and a little common sense applied will let you know when you should and should not add level to a roll.

I think that'd be helpful; a character bio would at least give me some direction.

[slimykuotoan]

serleran wrote:
...a rogue is a skill based class whereas a cleric is a spell based class, giving them wholly different purposes and directions.

Good point.