Minor/Major Image Damage?
Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 4:45 pm
May be a dumb question but...
How much "damage" can you do with Minor & Major Images?
How much "damage" can you do with Minor & Major Images?
Troll Lord Games
Castles & Crusades, The Crusader Magazine, Aihrde, and all other things SIEGE.
https://www.trolllord.com/forums/
Minor/Major Image Damage?
Page 1 of 1
Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 4:54 pm
Depends on the application of the effect. They can kill, so... as much as the opponent has. However, these have to be carefully adjudicated by the CK, and effects that are beyond the possible (ie, not believable) are just not possible (or, rather, are automatic saves.) Therefore, something like 1d6/level for most common effects, like duplicating a fireball.
Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 5:00 pm
Cool, I was thinking somewhere along those lines. I would have to look askance at the 1st level illusionist tossing out illusionary Meteor Swarms left and right.
Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 6:54 pm
Look askance? Look no further than my campaign (kidding, SSS).
_________________
http://strangequests.wordpress.com/
_________________
http://strangequests.wordpress.com/
Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 11:15 am
Look askance!!!
I've had such a hard time getting good stuff to work that I haven't even tried an illusionary magic missile
Just wait until tonight I've got some good stuff planned
_________________
later
SSS
----------------------------
"Size matters not."
-Yoda, Jedi Master
I've had such a hard time getting good stuff to work that I haven't even tried an illusionary magic missile
Just wait until tonight I've got some good stuff planned
_________________
later
SSS
----------------------------
"Size matters not."
-Yoda, Jedi Master
Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 6:36 pm
Well, if you make a major Image of a 20d6 fireball it does 20d6 damage on a failed save.
Of course, as a CK, I tend to give massive bonuses to people's saves should the image not be believable, aka, a level 2 illusionist using minor image to make a 20hd fireball would be +18 to everyone's saving throw...
_________________
Basic Action Games http://www.bashrpg.com
Check us out for free demos and downloads or visit us onFacebook.
Of course, as a CK, I tend to give massive bonuses to people's saves should the image not be believable, aka, a level 2 illusionist using minor image to make a 20hd fireball would be +18 to everyone's saving throw...
_________________
Basic Action Games http://www.bashrpg.com
Check us out for free demos and downloads or visit us onFacebook.
Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 11:03 pm
But how does the target of the illusory fireball know what 'level' the caster is?
Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 11:19 pm
mount sky wrote:
But how does the target of the illusory fireball know what 'level' the caster is?
Good question. I think there was a discussion about Illusions on another thread. I guess the damage is part of the phantasm the Illusionist is trying to impart on the victim. Maybe the higher level the Illusionist is the hotter or more "explosive" the fireball or lightning bolt is. I would rule that a 3rd level Illusionist could only do a 3hd fireball; mostly if the illusion were to seem real the caster must have experienced and survived a fireball.
IMP
Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 7:08 am
ChaosImp wrote:
Good question. I think there was a discussion about Illusions on another thread. I guess the damage is part of the phantasm the Illusionist is trying to impart on the victim. Maybe the higher level the Illusionist is the hotter or more "explosive" the fireball or lightning bolt is. I would rule that a 3rd level Illusionist could only do a 3hd fireball; mostly if the illusion were to seem real the caster must have experienced and survived a fireball.
IMP
Yep, if an Illusionist wants to cast spells with effects at a higher level than they are they must first have survived experiencing its full effects.
If they want to do a monster they must have been involved in, or eyewitness to its attacking.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society
Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/
My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames
Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:47 am
Not really, Treebore. Its the target that has those limitations. The illusionist can create whatever they want, but they are bound by such things as believability, subject to what the target(s) accept as reality. This is why it is vital to know the specific restrictions of every spell, in how, and which, senses are affected, or if its purely mental, and then, still apply some sort of "cap" to prevent outright abuse.
For example, the illusionist can create the illusion (using minor image) of a meteor swarm falling from the sky, but, that spell lacks several aspects that would exist with the real thing, which any character knowing about would be able to instantly say "I disbelieve" and would do so automatically, suffering nothing from the spell. On the other hand, if this happens to a bunch of dim-witted dwarfs with no knowledge of magic at all, they are likely to have no clue to what the spell can do, and have no immediate reason to disbelieve, but, they are still entitled to it (as the form of a save) because of lack of particular sensory things like force of impact, or the searing heat of fire, or the low whistle as the rocks fall, or even the lack of flickering colors in the flames as they strike oxygen... its really all about how exact the illusionist can make it, through the player's description and the "metaphysical limits" of the spell used (some actually create semi-real things, and are much more powerful.)
Anyway, the point is that each CK must decide where the boundaries of the feasible are, or how much Twilight Zone they want things to get. The lower the spell level, the less it can do... this is pure principle of thaumaturge theory.
For example, the illusionist can create the illusion (using minor image) of a meteor swarm falling from the sky, but, that spell lacks several aspects that would exist with the real thing, which any character knowing about would be able to instantly say "I disbelieve" and would do so automatically, suffering nothing from the spell. On the other hand, if this happens to a bunch of dim-witted dwarfs with no knowledge of magic at all, they are likely to have no clue to what the spell can do, and have no immediate reason to disbelieve, but, they are still entitled to it (as the form of a save) because of lack of particular sensory things like force of impact, or the searing heat of fire, or the low whistle as the rocks fall, or even the lack of flickering colors in the flames as they strike oxygen... its really all about how exact the illusionist can make it, through the player's description and the "metaphysical limits" of the spell used (some actually create semi-real things, and are much more powerful.)
Anyway, the point is that each CK must decide where the boundaries of the feasible are, or how much Twilight Zone they want things to get. The lower the spell level, the less it can do... this is pure principle of thaumaturge theory.
Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:52 am
Thats why I puit the onus on the Illusionist to be capable of creating such realistic imagery that the target believes it.
They's have to achieve a pretty good level before they have an illusions capable of making meteors appear to fall from the heavens. In fact, I can't think of an illusion that has such an area of effect. So I'll need to read through the books to even see if there is one. Having an area of effect from the heavens down to the earth is pretty huge.
Another reason I put the onus on the Illusionist is because it is easier for me to decide how good they can do illusions based on their experiences, since I know exactly what those experiences are. With NPC's I have to make it up.
I would rather base my decisions off of the actual experiences of the PC illusionist.
So that is why I make it up based on the Illusionists experiences.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society
Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/
My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames
They's have to achieve a pretty good level before they have an illusions capable of making meteors appear to fall from the heavens. In fact, I can't think of an illusion that has such an area of effect. So I'll need to read through the books to even see if there is one. Having an area of effect from the heavens down to the earth is pretty huge.
Another reason I put the onus on the Illusionist is because it is easier for me to decide how good they can do illusions based on their experiences, since I know exactly what those experiences are. With NPC's I have to make it up.
I would rather base my decisions off of the actual experiences of the PC illusionist.
So that is why I make it up based on the Illusionists experiences.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society
Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/
My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames
Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:17 pm
Quote:
its really all about how exact the illusionist can make it, through the player's description and the "metaphysical limits" of the spell used (some actually create semi-real things, and are much more powerful.)
To me the player's description is the key. Also the strength of Illusion isn't direct damage but screwing with the minds of the target.
_________________
"And so I am become a knight of the Kingdom of Dreams and Shadows!" - Mark Twain
Forgive all spelling errors.
Knight Errant & Humble C&C Society Contributor
C&C Society
Re: Minor/Major Image Damage?
Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:03 pm
Prince of Happiness wrote:
May be a dumb question but...
How much "damage" can you do with Minor & Major Images?
As much damage as the target believes they take.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven
Peter Bradley
Re: Minor/Major Image Damage?
Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:41 pm
gideon_thorne wrote:
As much damage as the target believes they take.
Re: Minor/Major Image Damage?
Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:28 pm
Prince of Happiness wrote:
If they believe they got crushed by a ton of boulders (except they don't hear the sounds of falling boulders with Silent Image and thus have a good chance of "disbelieving") then they are likely going to be dead. Yet perfectly serviceable/lootable corpses as they won't TRULY be crushed to death...
_________________
Earned the following:
50 Useless Trivia Points from Serleran
Re: Minor/Major Image Damage?
Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:36 pm
Thats the thing with illusions. The target isn't going to automatically know it's an illusion. So why would they take less damage from it? Its a fairly safe bet that, if someone see's their hand get lopped off by a sword, their mind is going to convince their body that it hurts and act accordingly. This is why illusions are so dangerous. How do you tell what is, and isn't real?
In the case of these spells, the CK ought too, in my estimation, make the save roll and keep the results secret if the character failed.
If a group of characters are witnessing a given illusion, notes ought to be passed quietly to the players who did save with a quick (and perhaps mood evocative) explanation, then the players can react accordingly.
"You made your save, you see your companion reacting as if his hand was cut off, but what assaulted him has faded away to your senses."
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven
Peter Bradley
In the case of these spells, the CK ought too, in my estimation, make the save roll and keep the results secret if the character failed.
If a group of characters are witnessing a given illusion, notes ought to be passed quietly to the players who did save with a quick (and perhaps mood evocative) explanation, then the players can react accordingly.
"You made your save, you see your companion reacting as if his hand was cut off, but what assaulted him has faded away to your senses."
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven
Peter Bradley
Re: Minor/Major Image Damage?
Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:42 am
gideon_thorne wrote:
Thats the thing with illusions. The target isn't going to automatically know it's an illusion. So why would they take less damage from it? Its a fairly safe bet that, if someone see's their hand get lopped off by a sword, their mind is going to convince their body that it hurts and act accordingly. This is why illusions are so dangerous. How do you tell what is, and isn't real?
In the case of these spells, the CK ought too, in my estimation, make the save roll and keep the results secret if the character failed.
If a group of characters are witnessing a given illusion, notes ought to be passed quietly to the players who did save with a quick (and perhaps mood evocative) explanation, then the players can react accordingly.
"You made your save, you see your companion reacting as if his hand was cut off, but what assaulted him has faded away to your senses."
The guy with his hand cutoff would see his hand instantly reappear (as it's removal was part of the illusion), but he'd still have the lingering effects of the hit point loss (from the "shock") for having lost his/her hand. Once a save is made, the illusion is "smashed" for everyone. (Unless it's a really high powered illusion, that actually could chop of limbs...)
_________________
Earned the following:
50 Useless Trivia Points from Serleran