Barbarian armor class:

[slimykuotoan]

serleran wrote:
I see the "problem." Its the elusive hunt for the "perfect balance" in C&C...

You're completely off the mark.

This discussion is about the barbarian as presented in PHB: which has no real skills, and is weaker at fighting than the fighter.

What's the point?

And all I hear is the: roleplaying vers roll playing' argument over and over again.

Perhaps it's the fact that 1st edition D&D, historical evidence, fantasy fiction, and ecetera, has built the character of 'the barbarian' to be something of a 'no holes barred fighter', yet in C&C, he's a guy who can't wear armor -yet gets no abilities for doing so- and occasionally gets a +2 to wisdom saves and damage...

[BASH MAN]

serleran wrote:
I see the "problem." Its the elusive hunt for the "perfect balance" in C&C, which is a joke, honestly. When you realize the classes weren't designed with the others in mind (as in, what they got, specifically; only in how the abilities compared XP- wise matter) and then ponder the fact that each class is simply a representation of a particular archetype for a standard fantasy milieu, you'll see why the classes are as they are, flawed and all. If, however, you want the "ultimate class" I suggest you try the cleric. They get everything. Perfect streamline Primes for abilities, fast advancement, spells (including healing), awesome armor choices, decent BtH, good weapons (some do multiple dice of damage) and a pretty good HD type. Couple that with the fact that at a certain level they can make their own magic items, bring the dead back to life, and can mimic any other class in terms of abilities via their spells.... there is nothing more "perfect."

No, Druid has Cleric Beat hands down. A 4th level cleric with Animal friendship spell can have an 8d12HD Dire bear as a friend, who does a d12 dmg with each claw and 3d8 with his bite.

As for the Druid's own abilities, his spells are just about on par with the clerics, but he can use swords and bows. His spells are also more likely to have offensive uses [call lightning anybody] and plenty of utilitarian uses as well [transmute rock to mud on the stone surrounding it, instead of casting knock on the door]

When I ran C&C at KublaCon, I twice had solo players before more people came to the table-- and to both I recomended this option [having the bear companion as a meat shield/killing machine served them well].

And this was before gaining any animal totem stuff. Turn undead is useful, but having the bear tear through them was almost as fast.
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[Treebore]

BASH MAN wrote:
No, Druid has Cleric Beat hands down. A 4th level cleric with Animal friendship spell can have an 8d12HD Dire bear as a friend, who does a d12 dmg with each claw and 3d8 with his bite.

As for the Druid's own abilities, his spells are just about on par with the clerics, but he can use swords and bows. His spells are also more likely to have offensive uses [call lightning anybody] and plenty of utilitarian uses as well [transmute rock to mud on the stone surrounding it, instead of casting knock on the door]

When I ran C&C at KublaCon, I twice had solo players before more people came to the table-- and to both I recomended this option [having the bear companion as a meat shield/killing machine served them well].

And this was before gaining any animal totem stuff. Turn undead is useful, but having the bear tear through them was almost as fast.

True, but the Druid has lousy AC and does not have nearly as good a healing ability, which makes a huge difference in a "meatgrinder" dungeon or encounter.

So a Dire bear is great for combat, but when the Druid isn't powerful enough to restore PC's, or heal up a serious amount of HP damage to his buddies, that bear loses some of its glamour. Plus it is sweet when the Cleric's turning ability gets good enough to outright destroy thsoe undead creatures. Rather than plow throw them and risk permanent damage to stats, etc...

Plus the Druids animal totem is pretty weak. The animals AC usually sucks, HP's are still whatever the Druid has, which could be good or bad.

So yeah, the trade off costs aren't very obvious, but they are there. Balanced? Not really, but close enough.

As for the Barbarian, he is what he is supposed to be. A lesser trained fighter who doesn't want, let alone know how to, fight in heavy armors.

He is all about who he is and where he came from.

Fighters are trained to fight in the heaviest armor available. They are taught optimum fighting techniques. All in a very regimented training course of instruction.

Barbarians are taught to "stick the pointy end in the other guy" and try and dodge out of the way of their attacks. By Uncle Bubba.

So when the "barbarian" faces the formally trained fighter in his tough armor, the Romans are going to kick the barbarians arses.

So if you want a roman legionaire, play the fighter class.

If you wan't the Celt or the Pict, in their "fur armor", or butt naked, with their inferiorly cast weapons, who dye their hair and paint their faces with scary "masks", and work themselves into a "fury" before charging into battle and die a glorious death, play a Barbarian.

Barbarians don't wear heavy armor because they don't want to. Its "not my way". Simple as that.

Now I am in no way saying that the Barbarian class couldn't be changed some. Having a "Barbarian" wearing heavy armor still wouldn't happen.

Thats when they become a "fighter", and get the formal training in how to fight and move in those heavy armors. Only Fighters, Knights, Paladins, and Clerics get to wear heavy armors. Not Barbarians, Rangers, or Bards.
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[Malperion]

If one really wanted to have the "Conan" killing machine, as Conan was shown to be in the stories, one would need to use one of the multi-class options to get the levels of fighter, thief and possibly knight to represent the phases Conan went through in the stories (joining the Turanian army, stealing in Zamora, commanding an Aquilonian army...).

If one wanted to stay a savage, uncultured gothic, celtic, germanic tribesman nature-boy warrior, stay with Barbarian. You may not have the fancy sword training or the thick armor, but you keep the D12 hps, damage reduction, fighting in the negatives and the savage image.

[serleran]

Bashy, man, you missed the whole point of my post on clerics... here are other classes that might fight better, but none as flexible as the cleric. None. They can do everything. They are "perfect" because they have no weaknesses.

And, slimy... I have not missed the point at all. The counter-argument brings up how the barbie is missing some mechanical reason for its limits. That is pure and unadulterated "anti-barbarian bias." Maybe you're trying to force Conan into the role, and that doesn't work, because Conan is not a barbarian. He's a LA character.... he fits better in a non-archetype game. If, on the other hand, you're thinking "viking," than the barbarian is a very close fit.

[slimykuotoan]

K guys...

I guess my arguement is just that 'as is' the barbarian costs a great deal in xps, yet doesn't get much for it.

There has to be something else to sweaten the pie: more powerful rage or something...

...and I get that fighters are better fighters.

If the PHB had presented Ghul's version, I would've been perfectly content. That's a class with something to it:

[slimykuotoan]

By Ghul:

BARBARIAN:

Primal Fury: fatigue effects to last for 30 minutes.

Scale ability (dexterity): as per the C&C ranger.

Survival Ability (wisdom): as per the C&C ranger, but terrain type must be of the barbarians native habitat.

Tracking (wisdom): as per the C&C, but terrain type must be of the barbarians native habitat.

Hide in natural surroundings (dexterity): the barbarian can hide in natural surrounding that are familiar to the barbarian (i.e., native) as per the C&C thiefs hide ability.

Leaping and springing (strength): Barbarians are able to leap up to a maximum distance of 10 feet forward, 3 feet backward, or 3 feet upward from a standing start. If the barbarian is able to move freely and get a running start, they can forward leap 15 feet plus and additional 1d6 feet with a successful strength check.

First Aid (wisdom): With a successful wisdom check, this skill allows the barbarian to bind wounds, set sprains or broken bones. The barbarian immediately regains 1 hit point and thereafter regains hit points at twice the normal rate (2 per day). The barbarian can also bind wounds to prevent further loss in hit points of other characters. Such first aid restores 1 hit point immediately, followed by standard recovery rate.

Outdoor craft (wisdom): The barbarian can identify plants and animals of his natural habitat without having to make a check. With a wisdom check, the barbabrian can also determine direction or predict weather.

Finally a barbarian may select 1-3 of the following tertiary skills depending on the locale or culture from which he originates. This effectively replaces any other background skills that other character classes may have. These include:

Animal handling (wisdom): The barbarian can handle domestic and wild animals. Usualy this is restricted to dogs, but could include wolves, large birds, giant lynxes, etc.

Horsemanship (dexterity): The barbarian is skilled in using his horse in combat as per the C&C knight, though not as skilled (melee penalty -1, ranged penalty -2) or necessarily as able to pull the various trick maneuvers.

Long distance signalling (wisdom): The barbarian is capable of using signalling methods of his native land (drums, smoke, mirror flashes, etc.) to communicate over long distances.

Running (constitution): This skill enables the barbarian to move at full speed (twice the normal movement rate) for no less than 12 hours before having to rest by spending a day moving at normal rate. With a successful constitution check, the babrbarian may resume running again after the day of rest.

Small craft, paddled (wisdom): The barbarian is skilled in the building and use of small canoes and hide boats.

Small craft, rowed (wisdom): the barbarian is skilled in the building of wooden boats and the rowing and/or sailing of these boats.

Sound imitation (charisma): The barbarian with this skill can mimic various sounds, including bird or animal calls, either for the purpose of luring those creatures or for signaling.

Snare building (wisdom): This skill allows the barbarian to construct dead-falls, pits, and other traps for large and even very large animals and like creatures.

[slimykuotoan]

I guess too, I wasn't thinking of the historical goths, etc. but rather the barbarians of fiction and 1st edition D&D.

When I saw the barbarian in the C&C PHB, cracking it open for the first time at the store, I was suddenly filled with awe, thinking to myself: 'Self, now you can be the mighty warrior of the steppes, the northman from the frigid lands, ready to do battle with...'

...then my wife snapped me out of my fantasies: "Are you gonna buy it or not?"

When I got home and read further, I envisioned myself leaping into battle with loincloth, and being very shortly riddled with arrows...

Your roman legionaire example Treebore, makes much sense, and now that I think about it, Conan, Kull, etc all started as barbarians, but quickly traveled to the civilized lands, fighting in armies, etc.

Conan may have started out as a barbarain, but he quickly became trained in the fighting arts of many nations -Fighter Class-...indeed, rising to positions of general at times.

[slimykuotoan]

So what is Conan in C&C, as an npc or otherwise?

Ranger/Fighter/Barbarian/Rogue?

Or using Ghul's barbarian: Fighter/Barbarian/Rogue?

[serleran]

He's not really anything, because he doesn't follow any of the archetypes specifically. He's got elements of all the fighting classes (can lead armies, has been a king, knows how to fight unarmed...) but also some thieving and killing, and even some light magical knowledge, too. He's a NPC, straight-out. No class, just a list of things he can do, and at a specific level, like:

Conan: fights as a 14th level fighter. Combat Marauder as a 12th level ranger, backstab as 7th level thief, and all bard-CHA abilities as a 10th level character. He doesn't get all the other class abilities, necessarily, but he just gets to kick ass.

[slimykuotoan]

serleran wrote:
He's not really anything, because he doesn't follow any of the archetypes specifically...He's a NPC, straight-out.

Yeah, I'm beginning to see that he doesn't truly fit.

[Moorcrys]

I've modded the barbarian to get a few wilderness survival skills and allow the fatigue to pass as long as he can rest for a few minutes after raging, and they can add their Constitution bonus to the number of rounds they can rage.

There have been numerous threads on this -- I don't think people who have a problem with the barbarian as written are powergamers, balance freaks, or "roll-players"... A horde of 1st level barbarians can't do much raging across the countryside... they enter into a foaming frenzy for one round and then hobble along for four hours afterwards... literally. If that's cool with you, then use it as written, but I don't see any problem with those who would like to see it changed, either. But it doesn't need to be canon... just change it in your game and don't play one at cons.
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[gideon_thorne]

slimykuotoan wrote:
So what is Conan in C&C, as an npc or otherwise?

Ranger/Fighter/Barbarian/Rogue?

Or using Ghul's barbarian: Fighter/Barbarian/Rogue?

A fighter with good stats. Full stop. ^_~`
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