Are C&C Wizards too powerful?

[Zulgyan]

I'm seeing the C&C as too powerful when comparing it to the AD&D Wizard wich was already the most powerful class.

C&C Wizards got:

1. 3rd Edition Spells per day.

2. AD&D spell power (no saves to some spells)

3. Damage spells don't cap. You can cast 7 magic missiles or a 14d6 Fireball.

4. Some spells got reduced "cost" y gold pieces and age sacrifice. No system shock to reflect that danger to the wizard.

5. At level 10 and beyond, Wizards begin to progress like fighters.

6. Fighters are quite the same as AD&D fighters, maybe even less powerful because the got less attacks per round.

7. I know they advance slower, but not slow enought. And by level 10 they advance just like most classes.

8. C&C saving throws are much harder than in other editions of the game.

What do you C&C guys think?

[gideon_thorne]

I think you'd really dislike the way I do wizards. (spell points, power slots, et al) They make both AD&D and C&C wizards look like wimps.
So no, I suppose I really don't think either class is powerful enough.

Although, in relation to the AD&D wizard, the C&C one is actually intended to be more powerful so I understand.
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[moriarty777]

By 10th level... a Wizard is a lot more self sufficient but the road up to it is fraught with dangers. Power scale certainly rises in a way that they are truly a class to be reckoned with (and yet still vulnerable).

If you play be the book, one big limitation is the time it takes to prepare spells. A high level wizard in the midst of adventuring will not be able to rest 8 hours and prep one hour to get all spells back (or something to that effect) as they do in D&D 3.x

This in itself may be the perfect limitation factor if you need to curb some of the spell casters in C&C.

Some spells still do have some negative effects to reflect the spells potential. 'Permancy' comes to mind...
Moriarty the Red
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[Omote]

In thinking about this, I'm not so sure that the Wizard is going to be the all powerful class in the game at higher levels. There is no doubt that without damage caps, and certain spells not having a saving throw, the Wizard in C&C is one of the more powerful versions of this class in the classic means of FRPGs.

However, this could really change with the release of the CKG. Let's see what little powers the other classes might having waiting for them at the higher levels.

BTB, you might be right in that the Wiz is the most powerful class at level 12. Also, the EPP requirements are still a limiting factor to the class.

..............................................Omote

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[Zulgyan]

EEP requiraments don't look TOO limiting. By level 10 they advance just like fighters.

The wizard has always been the most powerful class. But C&C seem to ROCK. Much powerful than previous incarnations.

Anyway, I'm just speculating, I gotta see it "in play". But from simple comparison, the wizard seem TOO powerful.

[Nelzie]

They still have a tiny starting pile of Hit Points.

If the wizard is constantly beat in initiative, at later levels, he/she is looking at either a swift death or needing to run.
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[Treebore]

The way some spells are written make them even more powerful.

Take invisibility, for instance. It lasts forever, until an attack is made.
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[Rigon]

However BTB, a 12th level wizard would need 6 3/4 hours to prepare all of his spells for the day. Add in the 8 hours of rest and you are spending better than 1/2 the day to prepare spells.

R-
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[serleran]

And the fact that a very powerful wizard doesn't get to add much against a foe that has spell resistance, to which a fighter can walk up and beat down, but the wizard is left saying "but I attacked the darkness!" One forgets that several of the more powerful creatures have outright immunities and have other resistances rendering the effectiveness of any spellcaster up to the situation (ie, their creative uses of their abilities and a CK who's willing to roll along.) So... no, I don't think a wizard is "too" powerful unless you give them everything they need.

[daddystabz]

Bah to Wizards I say!

they never could withstand a good slice of my bastard sword!

[Treebore]

Paladins with old style Holy Avengers equals awesome mage killer.
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[serleran]

Yeah, given that a wizard has low AC, few truly impressive defense spells against someone that can engage them (the greatest defense a wizard has is avoiding combat), and very few HP makes them quite vulnerable, especially against any group of determined nastlings. The wizard will need to take them all down or he will soon become vulnerable. Against poison, the wizard is basically useless as well, seeing as one little touch of a 1 hp / round poison will take him out until he dies, and they don't tend to have very good saves against the stuff.

So, by the book, a wizard played within the context of a party is very powerful... but solo, not so much. I'd rather be a fighter or a ranger as a solo PC than a wizard.

[nwelte1]

gideon_thorne wrote:
I think you'd really dislike the way I do wizards. (spell points, power slots, et al) They make both AD&D and C&C wizards look like wimps.
So no, I suppose I really don't think either class is powerful enough.

Although, in relation to the AD&D wizard, the C&C one is actually intended to be more powerful so I understand.

Can I get a copy of your house rules regarding the above??

[gideon_thorne]

nwelte1 wrote:
Can I get a copy of your house rules regarding the above??

Sure. My spell point formula is Prime requisite (2) + Con/3(level/2)= spell points. Spells cost the level of the spell in points.

When your out of spell points, your out of gas, although one can start scavenging their con score if they wish. The cost to cast a spell is the same, but when the con hit zero, your characters burned themselves out and are dead.

Now, I've been using this system since the mid 80's. I'm sure someone's going to find some balance or mathematics issue with it. But its worked for me for a long time, and i've never concerned myself with such things. ^_^

There is no memorization, there is no 'forgetting' spells, there are no spell books to haul around. The # of spells per day becomes, instead, a pragmatic guide as to a 'safety' margin as to what one ought to cast.

I don't remember everything we did. Cause 1) its been a while since I played a straight up mage (so it took a while to find my notes) and 2) Its been about a decade since I had to think about it. ^_~`
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[andakitty]

I like this. Two questions.

How fast do you recover points?

and, to make sure I have it right, a 2nd level Wizard with INT 15 and CON 12 would be 15x2 plus 4x1= 34 spell pts.?

[Dangersaurus]

Zulgyan wrote:
I'm seeing the C&C as too powerful when comparing it to the AD&D Wizard wich was already the most powerful class.

C&C Wizards got:

1. 3rd Edition Spells per day.

2. AD&D spell power (no saves to some spells)

3. Damage spells don't cap. You can cast 7 magic missiles or a 14d6 Fireball.

4. Some spells got reduced "cost" y gold pieces and age sacrifice. No system shock to reflect that danger to the wizard.

5. At level 10 and beyond, Wizards begin to progress like fighters.

6. Fighters are quite the same as AD&D fighters, maybe even less powerful because the got less attacks per round.

7. I know they advance slower, but not slow enought. And by level 10 they advance just like most classes.

8. C&C saving throws are much harder than in other editions of the game.

What do you C&C guys think?

I can agree with some of your points, especially in regards to high-level play. But personally I'm a big believer in the idea that the majority of gameplay in non-3.x games should take place at levels 1-10. Beyond that, let the PCs go power mad for a level or two. Then its time to retire and reroll.

Anyways, if you're the CK, change it. Go with subtle changes first, so that if it turns out wizards aren't dominating you can go back to the book fairly seamlessly. Some suggestions:

1. A 5-10% bump in xp required.

2. Drop bonus spells/day (maybe allow a bonus to spells known at 1st equal to Int bonus to soften the blow.)

3. Cap damage dice (unless you start at high levels you might not see the effects of this soon enough to change it.)

4. Require all spellcasters to declare spells before initiative is rolled (this is a big one for me - reigns in a lot of cheese regardless of edition.)

5. Make a list of all your "problem" spells. Do not allow these to be learned or found by PCs. Introduce one or two in the form of "uncopyable" scrolls and see if they are detrimental to your game.

6. Require a concentration check for all casting, but they don't lose the spell if it fails (or more fun: if it fails, the spell doesn't go off until the next round... and they can't choose to have it NOT go off then.)

If you want to stick "By the book," C&C still gives CKs plenty of leeway:

1. Track material components (and encumbrance thereof.)

2. Require spellcasters to have the appropriate hands free to cast (although this makes life much harder on clerics.)

3. Require spellcasters to stand still while casting.

4. Evil RBDM style: if they fail saves against acid, fire, water, etc. go after that spellbook. But don't be cruel. Allow them one roll per spell. The anxiety on a player's face as you make them roll PAGE by PAGE can be priceless.

[gideon_thorne]

andakitty wrote:
I like this. Two questions.

How fast do you recover points?

Generally, after 8 hours of uninterrupted sleep, but if con has been sacrificed its one point of con recovery per day then the spell points recover as normal.

Quote:
and, to make sure I have it right, a 2nd level Wizard with INT 15 and CON 12 would be 15x2 plus 4x1= 34 spell pts.?

yup yup.
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Peter Bradley

[moriarty777]

Dangersaurus wrote:
4. Evil RBDM style: if they fail saves against acid, fire, water, etc. go after that spellbook. But don't be cruel. Allow them one roll per spell. The anxiety on a player's face as you make them roll PAGE by PAGE can be priceless.

hehehe...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't higher level spells require multiple pages for a single spell? 2 pages per spell level if I remember correctly. If that's the case, I can easily see such an 'incident' completely taking out the higher level spells -- even if you only lose 1 page of a given spell.

Pure EVIL!!!

Moriarty the Red
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[Dangersaurus]

moriarty777 wrote:
hehehe...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't higher level spells require multiple pages for a single spell? 2 pages per spell level if I remember correctly. If that's the case, I can easily see such an 'incident' completely taking out the higher level spells -- even if you only lose 1 page of a given spell.

Pure EVIL!!!

Moriarty the Red

In the cases where this has happened, I went spell by spell (and the first time, I was being nice since the player who was rolling out item saves let out a little groan... I said, "we'll just say that was one spell." Big smile. "Now roll for the rest." )

I like the page by page idea though... An ad at the local watering hole: "Wizard seeks stealthy adventurers to retrieve page 2 and 4 of Stoneskin from the Archmage Nevercatchesfire's spellbooks"

[Zulgyan]

That's slowing the game too much IMHO!

[serleran]

Well, hell, you can get all technical and say every word of the written text is magical and hence, a different item, since one could conceivably use the spellbook as a scroll in extreme duress. That, though, would be a lot of rolling.

[Dangersaurus]

Zulgyan wrote:
That's slowing the game to much IMHO!

Well, in AD&D we only went with item saves if the character failed their save on a 1 (or fell in a pit, that sort of thing.) I also trust my group and they've been good about rolling all their own saves - usually they're done by the time they get back around in initiative, unless they were next.

I'm also pretty stingy and pretty generous with spellbooks. Most NPCs don't know very many esoteric spells, and generally only know 1 or 2 more than they can cast per day. On the generous side (on the surface at least), I let PCs cast spells out of their spellbooks as if they are scrolls. The players love this at first... until the price of spellbook ink skyrockets, an enemy spellcaster depletes "their treasure" (ie his spellbook) before their very eyes or somesuch.

RBDM style is very much about one hand taketh, the other hand taketh too (but is slightly gentler.)

[Treebore]

Wizards and clerics have always been too powerful. It wasn't fighters, thieves, or Bards (except 1E Bards) who came to rule the world. It was wizards, Druids, and Clerics.

So you use Paladins with Holy Avengers and other clerics, Druids, and Mages to keep them in check.

Or you kill them off before they reach 5th level. Not hard to do with d4 in HP, lousy AC's, etc... In fact the CK usually has to work hard to keep the Wizard alive through the low levels.

So don't. Let them die.
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[nwelte1]

gideon_thorne wrote:
Sure. My spell point formula is Prime requisite (2) + Con/3(level/2)= spell points. Spells cost the level of the spell in points.

When your out of spell points, your out of gas, although one can start scavenging their con score if they wish. The cost to cast a spell is the same, but when the con hit zero, your characters burned themselves out and are dead.

Now, I've been using this system since the mid 80's. I'm sure someone's going to find some balance or mathematics issue with it. But its worked for me for a long time, and i've never concerned myself with such things. ^_^

There is no memorization, there is no 'forgetting' spells, there are no spell books to haul around. The # of spells per day becomes, instead, a pragmatic guide as to a 'safety' margin as to what one ought to cast.

I don't remember everything we did. Cause 1) its been a while since I played a straight up mage (so it took a while to find my notes) and 2) Its been about a decade since I had to think about it. ^_~`

How long does it take to regain spell points?

Is the attribute loss temp? If so does it regenerate at the normal rate?

[gideon_thorne]

nwelte1 wrote:
How long does it take to regain spell points?

Is the attribute loss temp? If so does it regenerate at the normal rate?

See my post above in reply to andakitty.
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