Polymorph

[Tadhg]

Some assumptions/questions:

Does detect magic cast against a polymorphed individual reveal a magic aura or is the PI just physically changed and not magic - so the spell would not do anything?

Since a PI retains alignment, I assume detect evil would reveal his alignment ~ in the case of a evil individual polymorphing into a "good" person (i.e. evil mage polys into a lawful good princess).

It seems detect thoughts might be helpful if a PM was a mule and the caster could determine a high intelligence, and would then be suspicious.

Are there any other spells that might be helpful at detecting or revealing a polymorphed individual?

Thanks.
_________________
Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

[Breakdaddy]

With the spell's duration being listed as PERMANENT (polymorph other), I would suggest that the spell is in place and active for as long as the tranformation is in effect (ie- until dispelled). This would mean that a detect magic spell would show a radiance about the entire affected individual. This is just IMO.

[Treebore]

Only higher level spells, like True Seeing come to mind.

I allow detect magic to work on detecting such spells because those spells have a duration. So there is magic going on. For the versions of Polymorph with a permanent duration there is no magic to detect.

Detecting alignments will also work, until the mentality of the "human" becomes that of the animal form they are in. Due to failing the save to maintain their identity.

The grey area that gives me the most frustration is when Polymorph is used to turn into other humanoids and Giants. If they fail their save to maintain their identity, what changes? I don't see any reason for such a change to be drastic enough to change the personae of the PC. Too much similarity.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

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[Tadhg]

Hmm, OK, thanks for the replies. 2 votes that polymorph gives a detectable aura.

Any other thoughts from our fellow C&C enthusiasts??

Thanks.
_________________
Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

[mordrene]

Heres my 2 cents.

polymorph is a 4th level spell. detect magic is a 0 level spell. I dont think detect magic is a powerful enough spell to detect the polymorph. If it could then could you use detect magic to find someone who was invisible. I know its munchkinesque (did i invent a word?) but the logic is there.

so heres another twist. allow the mage to do a check with their detect magic spell. difficulty being 12 + level of caster of the polymorph - caster level of the detect magic. if they succeed, then base how well they succeed on the knowledge they gain. if they barely make it then yeah there is something there. it the check is say 5-10 over the difficulty, then there is definitely a transmutation aura. 11-15 over then yep its been polymorphed.

Hows that?

[rabindranath72]

I assume that PERMANENT refers to the effects of the spell. Otherwise, would a dispel magic allow a polymorphed character to return to his original state? IMO a polymorphed creature has changed his physical properties permanently, but the spell is not in effect anymore.

[Treebore]

rabindranath72 wrote:
I assume that PERMANENT refers to the effects of the spell. Otherwise, would a dispel magic allow a polymorphed character to return to his original state? IMO a polymorphed creature has changed his physical properties permanently, but the spell is not in effect anymore.

That is a good way to look at it, if Dispel Magic can still change them back, then detect magic should still work. If it has become "permanent", then they truly are what they are.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

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[Breakdaddy]

Indeed. If a character can be returned to their natural state with a Dispel Magic, then the original polymorph is what is keeping them in an altered state. Thus, the spell is still in effect. Otherwise it could not be dispelled.

As for the invisibility thing: Detect Magic probably DOES see the aura of invisible characters under the invis spell, but they could easily move out of the way of the character trying to detect their aura in the 1 round it takes for that character to concentrate enough to see the aura, making the Detect Magic spell a dubious solution for such endeavors.

[Fizz]

I think i'm with Treebore on this one.

Polymorph Self says the caster can change his form whenever he wants to during the duration. To me, this implies magic is still there, waiting to be used.

But if the change is permanent, it's done, and the magic is gone. You can't detect what isn't there.

-Fizz

[serleran]

Detect magic obviously can detect current (ie, active) magic effects, but it also can determine lingering auras and those on an area, and those which are permanent, such as the presence of magical weapons. Therefore, if someone were polymorphed, casting DM on them would reveal a magical effect, and through concentration, one could determine the general nature (ie, alteration/transfiguration) but not what caused it specifically, or anything more than "yep, there's magic at work." This does not apply to any creature that shapechanges naturally (like all shapechangers) but does for those with innate spell-like abilities. Whether dispel can reverse it or not is of no concern regarding detecting it, which is all DM does.

For proof look at magic weapons - they cannot be dispelled (rendered permanently nonmagical) yet they can be easily found with DM.

As to whether DM can detect an invisible creature... yes, DM can determine that an aura exists and a spell was cast. But, if that aura starts moving, its not of much help and, remember, DM finds the strongest auras first.

[mordrene]

serleran wrote:
Detect magic obviously can detect current (ie, active) magic effects, but it also can determine lingering auras and those on an area, and those which are permanent, such as the presence of magical weapons. Therefore, if someone were polymorphed, casting DM on them would reveal a magical effect, and through concentration, one could determine the general nature (ie, alteration/transfiguration) but not what caused it specifically, or anything more than "yep, there's magic at work." This does not apply to any creature that shapechanges naturally (like all shapechangers) but does for those with innate spell-like abilities. Whether dispel can reverse it or not is of no concern regarding detecting it, which is all DM does.

For proof look at magic weapons - they cannot be dispelled (rendered permanently nonmagical) yet they can be easily found with DM.

As to whether DM can detect an invisible creature... yes, DM can determine that an aura exists and a spell was cast. But, if that aura starts moving, its not of much help and, remember, DM finds the strongest auras first.

So following your same logic I could cast light, a zero level spell, could light up an area in an area affected by a second level darkness spell?

[serleran]

Yes, if darkness does not say it prevents it. Just because a spell is of a lower level doesn't mean it cannot affect a higher level spell... otherwise, dispel magic could not shut down anything above 3rd level, which would make it a rather useless spell. That sword works both ways.

[Fiffergrund]

Permanent duration spells can always be detected using Detect Magic. The spell never expires.

If a polymorph spell made the physical form change and then the magic effectively ended, its duration would be "Instant", much like a fireball.
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Sir Fiffergrund, Lord Marshal of the Castle and Crusade Society.

He Who Hides Behind The Elephant's Back

[mordrene]

serleran wrote:
Yes, if darkness does not say it prevents it. Just because a spell is of a lower level doesn't mean it cannot affect a higher level spell... otherwise, dispel magic could not shut down anything above 3rd level, which would make it a rather useless spell. That sword works both ways.

maybe I've been jaded from 3.0/3.5 but it seems this weakens spells. a 20 level archmage darkness spell can be undone by a mere 0 level apprentice doesn't add up.

I dont have rules in front of me and due to age/wife/child/etc, i cant remember everything but with dispell magic, isnt a siege check in order to determine what happens. if not any fifth level mage could go around destroying any magic item. (maybe thats a good campaign starter. dispell magic starts working on everything and in five years, there are no more magical items)

Mere friendly discussion, dont want to anger, just want to see how others handle this.

[serleran]

Well, the area of effect for a 20th level archmage's darkness is quite large (I'm assuming AoE increases with level; if not, its a pretty pathetic spell anyway) which compared to the very low AoE of a 1st level caster... you'd end up getting a "hole" of light, with darkness all around; there simply is no way a 1st level caster can affect the effect that greatly. As for dispel, its likely a SIEGE check, but I meant: if dispel magic, a mere 3rd level spell, could not hinder even a 4th level spell (let's say a wall of ice, or whatever), it would be pointless -- essentially if the rule was "no spell of lower level can affect one of higher level" then it would, in effect, make high-level casting duels far less interesting... and would make magic less special. A rule like that would, in my opinion, be lame.

Also, contrary to weakening the spells, it makes them much more powerful, because, like you said, even a 1st level casting of light has an impact... if it were the other way, spells would be weaker (or rather, all that would matter is if one caster were higher level than another -- which would be boring!)

[anonymous]

There is no correct answer. Play it however you want. Note that Cure ... Wounds spells all have duration Permanent, but it would be a strange CK who ruled that anyone who had been cured would radiate magic and that you could use Dispel Magic to make a wound reappear.

[Fizz]

serleran wrote:
For proof look at magic weapons - they cannot be dispelled (rendered permanently nonmagical) yet they can be easily found with DM.

But the magic is always at work in a magic weapon. It's always giving a +1 (or whatever) bonus, always enabling you to hit magic creatures, etc. The magic is always there doing something. So i don't think that's a fair comparison.

In the case of a permanent polymorph, the object has been changed from one thing to another. The atoms have been rearranged into different molecules and it's now stable on it's own. It doesn't need magic to keep it together. It's done, it's over.

But if you go with the notion that the magic is needed to `hold' the object in the new state (without magic it'll morph back), then that's another issue, which would give off magic.

-Fizz

[Fiffergrund]

Tenser's Floating Disk wrote:
There is no correct answer. Play it however you want. Note that Cure ... Wounds spells all have duration Permanent, but it would be a strange CK who ruled that anyone who had been cured would radiate magic and that you could use Dispel Magic to make a wound reappear.

While you're correct in saying there's no "correct" answer, I think some answers are better than others. In this case, I think the spell durations for the Cure spells are errata. If one takes the definition of "duration" to mean "the period of time a spell lasts" anyway.

"Duration: Permanent" implies the magic never expires, just like "Duration: 3 rounds" implies the spell lasts for 3 rounds. "Duration: Instant" means the magic flashes, achieves an effect, and fades, leaving the effect permanent.

Duration should not be confused with effect. Permanent duration is very different than permanent effect. Cure spells, fireballs, lightning bolts, etc. should be of Instant duration (with permanent effect). Polymorph spells should be of Permanent duration, and instant effect (poof!).

Polymorph spells should also be dispellable. To play it otherwise seems to ring falsely to me, because literary archetypes abound where someone has been polymorphed and later restored through removal of the magic in question.

Permanent spells are detectable, as are any spells active within their allotted duration. Instant spells are detectable only during the instant they take effect.

Additional, possibly irrelevant detail: I wrote the Polymorph spell for the PHB, so I know what was intended by the Duration attribute.
_________________
Sir Fiffergrund, Lord Marshal of the Castle and Crusade Society.

He Who Hides Behind The Elephant's Back

[Treebore]

Fiff,

I agree with you that better wording can be chosen, but in many spell cases that have "permanent" as their duration means how long the effects of the spell will last. Whether its healing, continual flame, permanency, polymorphing, etc...

So it would probably be helpful to have more concise terminology to differentiate between the magic "permanently" functions (such as permanatized items or continual flame), or the results of the spell are permenant, such as in the cases of the healing spells and polymorph other.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

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[serleran]

And, again, Fiff says what I was trying to say... so, I agree with Fiff! (been too long, man. Come around more.)

[Tadhg]

Wow, thanks for all the responses! Very interesting to read.

_________________
Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

[Treebore]

serleran wrote:
And, again, Fiff says what I was trying to say... so, I agree with Fiff! (been too long, man. Come around more.)

He's just better at clearly stating his thoughts.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

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[serleran]

I can be clear... I just approach the idea from a different angle.

[Treebore]

serleran wrote:
I can be clear... I just approach the idea from a different angle.

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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

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[serleran]

Yeah, and I'm the one with the difficulty being clear....

[Fiffergrund]

I've been around more lately. It's nice to be back.

Treebore wasn't around during the infancy of C&C to see how obtuse and long-winded I was back then. Now I have a kid, so I need to be more concise.
_________________
Sir Fiffergrund, Lord Marshal of the Castle and Crusade Society.

He Who Hides Behind The Elephant's Back

[serleran]

Amazing how the situation changes, eh, Fiff? I used to be all "No, that sucks." Oh, wait, no, things haven't changed too much.

[anonymous]

The way Fiffergrund called it is the way I'd play it as well; the Cures should really be "instant" rather than "permanent" and I'd no more allow them to be dispelled than I'd stop someone speaking Thieves' Cant because they were wearing banded mail.

Much confusion seems to be caused because people aren't paying attention to the spell descriptions in the PHB (and are posting without having the books to hand) Saying that Detect Magic can't detect high level spells is clearly "eccentric" for the simple reason that the description says powerful magic is in fact easier to detect than weak magic and therefore detection doesn't work along the lines of "my spell tries to find your spell which tries to hide". It's also quite clear from the description that Dispel Magic will affect more or less anything and that the limiting factor is the Int roll - modified, naturally by the levels of the caster and dispeller. Magic items are also noted as not being permanently cancelled, only surpressed for d4 rounds.