Troll Lord Games

I was perusing the M&T and noticed that older dragons are very, very powerful...are the older ones made so powerful because they are not intended to fall prey to the PCs, or what? I mean, hit dice in the 30's? Who could survive such a hit (from a breath weapon), even with a successful save and more importantly, how? Please excuse my ignorance, maybe it will come clearer as I get deeper into the rules. I am tempted to nerf the dragons, but I don't understand the games' balance well enough yet, not to make a decision like that. Someone please enlighten me?

andakitty wrote:
I was perusing the M&T and noticed that older dragons are very, very powerful...are the older ones made so powerful because they are not intended to fall prey to the PCs, or what? I mean, hit dice in the 30's? Who could survive such a hit (from a breath weapon), even with a successful save and more importantly, how? Please excuse my ignorance, maybe it will come clearer as I get deeper into the rules. I am tempted to nerf the dragons, but I don't understand the games' balance well enough yet, not to make a decision like that. Someone please enlighten me?

Personally, i think dragons should be this powerful. They are meant to be the uber beast. There's a reason they've become so iconic.

Now, i've not been involved in a campaign involving an ancient wyrm, but i think a well organized high level party ought to be able to take one down. One on one, very tough- you'd have be really smart about it.

-Fizz

By the time you are fighting a dragon of that age, and expecting to win, you have 1) lots of people with you, 2) plenty of powerful magic (spells and items), 3) tactics so the breath weapon effect is minimized, 4) and balls of solid steel. A dragon of advanced age is a force of nature almost.. it is not something to trifle with, and it is going to kick you, hard. Some people complain they are not strong enough... some that they are too powerful. I tried to put them somewhere I thought they should be: difficult to fight, but not impossible (with luck, tenacity, and strategy) to overcome.

Dragons were the hardest "conversion" to make, because they are not like d20, not like AD&D, not like Classic... they are somewhere in the middle, and beyond.

Old dragons are indeed extremely tough in C&C; and like FIzz, I think it should be that way.

In my thinking, an ancient dragon should have a good chance of committing a TPK, and even with a PC victory, their will be much gnashing of teeth over the cost.

Are the old ones unbeatable? Nah, they are very, very frightening but I had two PC's (15ish in level, maybe 16), a fighter and wizard, take out an ancient red. It required some creative thinking and tactics on their part but they did accomplish it despite my thinking that they were going to have to roll up new characters.

For my campaign world, they standard C&C dragons are both to powerful and not powerful enough.

For the "common" dragon, they are way to powerful, intelligent and capable.

For the "Primal Force" that is one of the Elemental Dragons they are far to weak. Of course, there's only one Elemental Dragon per Elemental Plane and out of those, at least one is known to have been destroyed in ages long past. (...and it's defeat resulted in the decline of a once great and large group of champions.)
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As my players' PCs advance, I am beginning to thnk about dragons as foes. But I continue to resist. For one thing, the PCs are all multiclassed and each at around 3/3, so no one has more than 2nd level spells yet. Secondly, I like dragons to be a major deal. *SPOILERS* In an old 3e game, I ran "Forge of Fury" and the Black in it wiped out all of the party except the one who wisely ran away. I refuse to play them stupid, but I am a bit gun-shy of springing one on a group where they simply don't have a chance. To be fair to the PCs, they weren't expecting a dragon, so they hadn't prepped for that kind of fight.

Also, I dislike the idea of flinging "youngins" at the PCs. That detracts from the excitement of running into a grown up, IMO.

I like how dragons are done in C&C. They are nice and tough, but not utterly unbeatable. So I will resist plunking that big ol' mini down on the table for a bit longer. I'm thinking of dropping a few hints about a lair before too long, but not springing the beasty on them until they're all about 8 or 9 total levels. The hoard will make them drool, but they will pay for every gold piece of it.

I think the dragons in C&C are about right, any combat with a dragon should be something for bards to sing about. They are not a run of the mill monster, IMHO.
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There's always the option of giving each dragon a specific vulnerability or weakness - e.g a legacy weapon that protects the wielder from it's breath whilst inflicting horrific damage multipliers on a successful hit. This way you can maintain draconic power levels whilst giving the PCs something to quest for.

Alternatively you could emphasise the mytho-poetic dimension and introduce more abstract weaknesses. Lagash the Black cannot abide the sound of water on stone, whilst Garaur the Red falls into an instant slumber after hearing a white-haired child weeping. Again, finding out what these weaknesses actually are would involve a quest of epic proportions.
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Andrew DS wrote:
Garaur the Red falls into an instant slumber after hearing a white-haired child weeping.

I am now imagining the party taunting some blond kid outside a cave. "Your mom doesn't love you, ya know. That's why she SOLD you to us. To feed to the dragon!"

I agree that dragons should not be trifled with. They should not be taken lightly, played stupidly, or be anything less than the centerpiece of the campaign (or at least, a far-reaching arc). I will admit, that I played Forge of Fury, too, and even though I though it trivial to place a dragon in so low a module, it did pretty much wipe the floor with the party. If they're going to be included in a published adventure, they are sure as heck are going to be more than a speed bump. If I recall correctly, it took the party a total of three tries before they were able to take Nightscale. Of course, I'm the type of GM that would roll an adult dragon as a random encounter in the wilderness, even as low as the beginning levels. I'm a strong believer of the idea that the monsters possibly encountered aren't restricted to your character levels. If a 2nd-level party learns of the location of a hill giant lair, guess what? They're going to find some hill giants if they go there. Anyway, I'm digressing.

Yes, I think the HD of the dragons are fine. The ancient, oldest dragons should be forces unlike the characters have ever seen!

bighara wrote:
I am now imagining the party taunting some blond kid outside a cave. "Your mom doesn't love you, ya know. That's why she SOLD you to us. To feed to the dragon!"

I was thinking more along he lines of an elderly woman, who, having been the victim of a feeblemind spell as an infant has never developed an adult sense of self. But then I like making things difficult for my players...

Your child-slavery idea could also work. Once the kid has helped dispatch the dragon the PCs can put him to work cleaning chimneys and the like. Old school is all about the hirelings, after all.
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andakitty wrote:
I was perusing the M&T and noticed that older dragons are very, very powerful...are the older ones made so powerful because they are not intended to fall prey to the PCs, or what? I mean, hit dice in the 30's? Who could survive such a hit (from a breath weapon), even with a successful save and more importantly, how? Please excuse my ignorance, maybe it will come clearer as I get deeper into the rules. I am tempted to nerf the dragons, but I don't understand the games' balance well enough yet, not to make a decision like that. Someone please enlighten me?

This was very deliberate. Ancient dragons are supposed to be so monstrous that only the greatest of heroes would dare to stand against them? Along the lines of Glaurung from the Silmarilian. Almost unbeatable. I would also say that very few of the dragons make it to ancient wyrm age, as it is a brutal life.

However, this doesn't preclude you using the heck out of younger and middle of the road dragons. They are tough enough.

I would rarely use the ancient breed and when you do make it an encounter that they will talk about for years. I remember the Council of Light (from the Codex) meeting a huge ancient red and three were killed (later brought back) and the rest maimed and lost all their equipment. The whole encounter lasted several hours of game time. The dragon was only slain because of some reverse spell thing Todd had on him. They still talk about that encounter and that was in the 1980s.

For lesser wyrms see our Dragons of Ahirde series.

Steve
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Troll Lord wrote:
This was very deliberate. Ancient dragons are supposed to be so monstrous that only the greatest of heroes would dare to stand against them? Along the lines of Glaurung from the Silmarilian. Almost unbeatable. I would also say that very few of the dragons make it to ancient wyrm age, as it is a brutal life.

Indeed. My theory is to spring a mature blue on them in a few levels. I have a feeling they won't be interested in tougher than that for a while.
EDIT: Quick Q: M&T sez "Dragons do not add their full hit dice when making attack rolls; a dragon adds one-half of its hit dice to attack rolls.

Dragons do, however, add their full hit dice to saving throw rolls, plus the bonus set forth in the age chart."

Does that mean you only use half the HD when calculating breath weapon damage? Sounds like no, but I thought I'd ask.

I didn't step into this discussion for a few days, because I didn't feel the need to yet again express my (now officially house-ruled) opinion that the dragons as presented in the book were not powerful enough.

Half the dragon's hit dice are used as the BTH. So a 14 HD dragon would have a BTH of +7, but a saving throw bonus of +14. Damage bonus? I'm sorry, but doing a number of points of damage equal to your hit points on party members should crisp them even if they do save for half damage. I don't think a bonus to damage is necessary, although I'm fairly sure it's supposed to be there.
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That is for when the dragon makes saving throws, not the saving throws of his victims.
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Treebore wrote:
That is for when the dragon makes saving throws, not the saving throws of his victims.

Huh?
From p. 20 of M&T: "Dragons do not add their full hit dice when making attack rolls; a dragon adds one-half of its hit dice to attack rolls. Dragons do, however, add their full hit dice to saving throw rolls, plus the bonus set forth in the age chart. "

I was just wondering if the breath weapon was considered an "attack" in terms of how many dice you use, and thus halved.

@Traveller: I assume "doing a number of points of damage equal to your hit points" is part of your house rules since it's not in M&T.

bighara wrote:
Huh?
From p. 20 of M&T: "Dragons do not add their full hit dice when making attack rolls; a dragon adds one-half of its hit dice to attack rolls. Dragons do, however, add their full hit dice to saving throw rolls, plus the bonus set forth in the age chart. "

I was just wondering if the breath weapon was considered an "attack" in terms of how many dice you use, and thus halved.

@Traveller: I assume "doing a number of points of damage equal to your hit points" is part of your house rules since it's not in M&T.

On a guess (and without having M&T in front of me--it's in the car), I'd say that the dragon's breath weapon's strenth is it's full HD value. Save vs. Breath Weapon for 1/2 damage. Have fun surviving...

For its other attacks (claw, bite, wing buffet, tail strike, or whatever) the dragon adds half its HD as its BtH.
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bighara wrote:
@Traveller: I assume "doing a number of points of damage equal to your hit points" is part of your house rules since it's not in M&T.

Nah, had D&D on the brain there. Though, given that I think dragons as presented are still too weak, that might be something to consider.
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