Mixing C&C and AD&D

[CharlieRock]

Omote wrote:
Although, from a Collector's point of view there are actually two versions of the Silver Anniversary Basic Box set. One of the sets was a slimmer, normal-sized box set version. The other, was over-sized in a mammoth box that was about 10" x 15" by about the same depth. But, the material inside was the same, and just not as good as RC, Basic, or even Classic versions of basic D&D.

-O

You'd think after the D&D Rules Cyclopedia came out that they wouldn't try to put out the basic boxed set. Who would buy it? Why not get the hardback book and get all of it inside two covers.

I just realized I'm kicking a dead company.
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The Rock says ...

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[papercut]

Treebore wrote:
The M&T is available in PDF, so the Players book is the only one to get hold of in print. Plus it looks like the Trolls will be making a Players Book PDF available some time in their life time.

Yeah, I just noticed the Monsters and Treasure pdf on Paizo. TY!

[K2h2m3]

I am curious why you would try to incorporate AD&D into C&C. Wouldn't it just be easier to use the Siege Engine rules in AD&D?

[Treebore]

K2h2m3 wrote:
I am curious why you would try to incorporate AD&D into C&C. Wouldn't it just be easier to use the Siege Engine rules in AD&D?

I would have thought that too. Its the way I use 2E material. And 1E. And 3E. And GURPS. And Paladium.
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[K2h2m3]

Cool! Could I ask if you use AD&D saves or C&C?

[Treebore]

K2h2m3 wrote:
Cool! Could I ask if you use AD&D saves or C&C?

C&C. I always hated how higher level characters always saved on anything better than a 3, even if it was an 18th level mage casting a spell at your 14th level character.

I love how the saves in C&C scale with level, and having a fireball thrown at you at 10th level is almost as deadly as it was when thrown at you at 5th level. I say almost because I am assuming they have earned magical bonuses to save since 5th level.

So the game stays deadly, and therefore you still get that rush of adrenaline when the life of your beloved PC hangs on the success or failure of your roll.

Plus I am not one of those CK's who thinks raise dead or resurrection has no place in my game. In fact, I have come to accept it as necessary if I wish for the campaign to have any realistic chance of reaching the desired conclusion.

Using luck points has been very effective at reducing the need for Raise dead, etc... So that has helped.
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[areola]

Treebore wrote:
I love how the saves in C&C scale with level, and having a fireball thrown at you at 10th level is almost as deadly as it was when thrown at you at 5th level. I say almost because I am assuming they have earned magical bonuses to save since 5th level.

I haven't played C&C that long yet to know how the saves really affect the maths. Care to explain?

[Treebore]

areola wrote:
I haven't played C&C that long yet to know how the saves really affect the maths. Care to explain?

Sure.

The CL to save versus a spell is always equal to the casters level. So If you have a 10th level mage throwing the spell at a 10th level character it is still as dangerous as it was at 5th level.

At 5th Level:

TN to save is 12 or 18 + level of the caster, so 17 or 23, depending on if the relevant stat is prime.

The saving throw: They get to add their level + any attribute modifier + any magic modifier. So say they are 5th level with a 17 dex and a +1 ring of protection. They get a total of 8 (5+2+1) to add to their roll. They have to roll a 9 or a 15 to match or beat the TN.

At 10th level:

The TN to save is again 12 or 18 + the level of the caster. So 22 or 28.

Now for the save:

Lets assume I have been stingy with magic rings.

So now the save is modified by level (10), + Stat (+2), and the ring they still have (+1). Which totals +13. Notice even though they are 10th level now they still need to roll equal to or better than a 9 or 15, just like they had to at 5th level.

So the magic is still just as risky to them when challenging a caster of equal level to them. Plus the amount of damage will be a similar percentage of their total HP as it was at 5th level.

I like the fact that the mage stays as scary as he was at 5th level. In every edition of D&D, especially 3E, they made the mage become weaker at higher levels because the save grew fast, to the point where the PC would almost always make the save (70 to 90% of the time). 3E made it even worse because of the DR/SR and huge save bonuses, plus luck bonus, protection bonus, divine bonus, super high stat bonus', etc...

Making a mage practically useless against buffed/highly protected opponents.

Thats why I love saves in C&C the best. You can never attack a spell caster thinking you will likely make your save and take half or no damage.

You know you have about a 45% or worse chance of failing instead of 70% or better chance of making the save. So you keep the fear and the tension. So when you go to make that roll you have just as much apprehension at 10th level as you did when you were 5th level. So when you make the roll your thrilled, or when you fail your fear builds and the tension of the fight builds.
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[papercut]

After looking at the rules on how to port DnD stuff to this game, wrapping my head around the process, doing it a few times with 0,1,2e all I have to say is WOW! It really is really simple. really. Especially 0 and 1e.

Plus, it is flexible and lets one use mountains of material rather easily. I haven't really messed around with porting 3.x, but I don't really want to- skills and feats- yuck. The designers of 3e may have been well intentioned, but the combination of the the OGL and feats system was not well thought out from a usability perspective. All those books may be a marketers dream, but idk...

[areola]

Treebore wrote:
Thats why I love saves in C&C the best.

I just simply love C&C... Actually I don't really like giving too many praise to the game designers, but its hard no to coz the SIEGE engine is just brilliant.

[Aladar]

Aye, C&C is a great system. I have been porting things over from my original AD&D (1st Ed) modules, with hardly any conversion work at all.
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[Treebore]

areola wrote:
I just simply love C&C... Actually I don't really like giving too many praise to the game designers, but its hard no to coz the SIEGE engine is just brilliant.

I agree the SIEGE engine is an example of simplistic brilliance.
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[dutch206]

papercut wrote:
After looking at the rules on how to port DnD stuff to this game, wrapping my head around the process, doing it a few times with 0,1,2e all I have to say is WOW! It really is really simple. really. Especially 0 and 1e.

Pardon me for being dense, but where can I find these conversion rules?

edit....never mind. I found it. Who knew C & C had a wiki? (I guess everything has a wiki these days) [is there a wiki-wiki?]
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[Breakdaddy]

Should be fairly easy to do. I know a group that is using pure AD&D 1st ed with just the SIEGE engine strapped on for skill and feat type checks. Everything else including THAC0 is in place as per the 1ed ADnD rules. By all accounts they are loving it and even using some of the C&C modules for their adventures with no issues.

[yell0w_lantern]

Treebore wrote:
I would have thought that too. Its the way I use 2E material. And 1E. And 3E. And GURPS. And Paladium.

Alright!

Me too.

I'm getting ready to use Book II Old Ones. Muahahahaha!

[Treebore]

yell0w_lantern wrote:
Alright!

Me too.

I'm getting ready to use Book II Old Ones. Muahahahaha!

You are evil!
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[Traveller]

The one thing I would add to Castles & Crusades from AD&D is the magic items in the DMG that aren't duplicated in Monsters & Treasure. Money, encumbrance, and the challenge class system were tweaked using other game systems though.
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[seskis281]

As my group gets really powerful,

I may import the:

Tarasque!
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[azog]

rabindranath72 wrote:
Has anyone imported rules from AD&D to C&C?

Most of the material I have is for AD&D, so I was thinking of essentially using C&C classes (with some tweaks), races (idem) and the combat rules; essentially, the core of C&C.

All the rest would be AD&D (some attribute effects, spells, spells per day, monsters etc.), namely all the things that would need a "conversion" (albeit small) to be done prior to play.

Cheers,

Antonio

I've mixed rules, freely (just not races or classes), from 1st edition and 2nd edition. It's one of the reasons that I've invested so heavily in Castles & Crusades - it gives me a fairly up to date rules base, but doesn't make all of my old material obsolete.

If this ever changes for C&C, then I'll find something else (or go back to straight OAD&D.

David
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[eldritchknight]

Can someone give a link to the C&C W

Never mind, I found it.

[Treebore]

azog wrote:
I've mixed rules, freely (just not races or classes), from 1st edition and 2nd edition. It's one of the reasons that I've invested so heavily in Castles & Crusades - it gives me a fairly up to date rules base, but doesn't make all of my old material obsolete.

If this ever changes for C&C, then I'll find something else (or go back to straight OAD&D.

David

Yep, me too. I just know that C&C won't be changing. At least not the books I own. So I will be staying with C&C until I quit being a gamer.
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[Lord Falcon MacGreggor]

I have incorporated aspects from every D&D type RPG that I have (Anything that runs in the time frame of 'In Days of old, when knights were bold, and . . . . . . we won't go there.)

So adding D&D parts to C&C shouldn't effect much, so long as you keep within the spirit of what is intended in the 'Core RUles' of the version(s) of hte game that you are playing.

Just make sure that you write down what ever changes, additions, submissions, etc. that you use, both for your ease of reference, as well as that of your players. (Mainly so that you don't end up with one reference stating that a spell can kill a in one casting, and another stating that they get a save to ignore it.)
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