Troll Lord Games

Cross-posted from Dragonsfoot:

Dear all,

I am working on some races for my Dragonlance campaign, and some issues have risen. As an example, here follows the Minotaur.

Minotaur

Racial Traits and Abilities

- Natural Weapons (horns and bite): Minotaurs can attack with their horns Large opponents for 2d4 damage. The horns can also be used with a charging maneuver (C&C PH p.116) in order to inflict greater damage. They can also bite opponents of any size for 1d4 damage.

- Enhanced sense of smell: as Half-Orc (C&C PH p.37).

- Tough Hide: Due to their Ogrish lineage, Minotaurs enjoy a +1 bonus to Armor Class (cumulative with worn armor).

- Hulking Brute: Minotaurs are treated as Large creatures, which gives them the initiative advantage in combat (C&C PH p.115) and allows them to double their starting hit die.

- Ogre Blood: Minotaurs are treated as Ogres for what concerns the Combat Marauder and Favored Enemy abilities of Rangers, the Defensive Expertise ability of Dwarves and for all spells and effects which target Ogres.

- Seamanship: Minotaurs are trained to be excellent seafarers, and since a young age serve aboard ships (see the Seamanship ability in the Mariner class description).

- Languages: Common, Kothian. Additional languages: Kalinese, Nordmaarian, Ogre, Saifhum.

- Size: Large

- Movement: 30 feet

- Typical Classes: Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger, Wizard, Cleric, Mariner

- Attribute Modifiers: +2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma

- Ranger Modifier: +2 track

- Mariner Modifier: +2 seamanship

- Racial age: 60, 90, 120 + 3d10

Since I was not involved in the playtesting of the PHB, I do not know whether there are some guidelines. In particular, how to deal with the following issues:

1) is it "appropriate" to put penalties to a race? (the Ogre Blood trait above.) I did it to "compensate" the Hulking Brute trait, but I am not sure it is the right way to go (since in any case Minotaurs only choose two Primes, and are therefore already penalized).

2) how to deal with racial abilities which mimic (or are equal to) class abilities, or for which a race has a "natural gift". Minotaurs, for example, are "natural born" Mariners, so I gave them the Seamanship skill, the same skill of Mariners. But, should the skill have a flat bonus even for non-Mariners? I gave the bonus just to Minotaurs who are effectively Mariners (as per standard C&C use), but since the race ability is effectively the same as a class ability, perhaps the bonus would be appropriate even to non-Mariners. I am really not sure.

Point 2) above is relevant also for Kender characters, for which it seems appropriate to give the physical abilities of a thief.

So, what is the "correct" way to go?

Cheers,

Antonio

I think it really doesn't matter as long as you come up with the correct xp award for killing it.
Now I know Ser and Peter have dropped hints, bits, and pieces of how to determine the xp for a class, put I don't remember if a pdf of that info has been made. I would guess you already checked all the links on CnCplayer.net to see if such a document existed.

So all I can tell you is that there is a formalized way to develop the xp progression, and you can build it from the ground up usiing it, but someone actually involved in that aspect and who has the values will have to tell you.

I definitely hope this kind of info is going to be in the forthcoming CKG.

Treebore wrote:
I think it really doesn't matter as long as you come up with the correct xp award for killing it.
Now I know Ser and Peter have dropped hints, bits, and pieces of how to determine the xp for a class, put I don't remember if a pdf of that info has been made. I would guess you already checked all the links on CnCplayer.net to see if such a document existed.

So all I can tell you is that there is a formalized way to develop the xp progression, and you can build it from the ground up usiing it, but someone actually involved in that aspect and who has the values will have to tell you.

I definitely hope this kind of info is going to be in the forthcoming CKG.

Thank you for the feedback but...I was not speaking about classes

Id simply look at the elf race in the PHB, then look at the elves in the M&T and work out some logical conclusions from there. Should serve as an adiquate guideline. ^_^
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

There is no "right way," or "official way." Yet. There is only what people do... mine is as follows:

To convert a monstrous race into a playable race is rather simple.

List the "Specials" given by the monster as racial abilities. These will be transfered exactly across.

Next, one determines the attribute adjustments, which is the far trickier part, but one can bend this part ot suit taste. Personally, I do this:

If HD > = 6 and Physical Prime, then +1 Stength and Con ; +1 / +3 HD > 6.

If movement (land speed) >= 30, then +1 Dex / +10 feet > 30

If HD >= 6 and Mental Prime, then +1 Wisdom and Int; +1 / +3 HD > 6.

If a monster is described as weak, cowardly, or some other seeming contradiction, apply a penalty instead to relevant attribute. However, if the monster is described as being particularly strong, or agile, and it is not reflected in the HD formula, give a +1 bonus anyway.

All monster races get -2 Charisma.

If Con modifer >= +3, +1 hit dice at level one; still use class-based type. Note that monsters which are listed as having class abilities or possibly having class abilties should favor those classes, getting a +2 bonus on 2-3 checks for that class.

Next, comes the hard part, and that is "balancing" the race. I disfavor XP penalties, as they become meaningless at high levels. Instead, I prefer something else, which is similar, but not quite. Add up the bonuses, and the Type abilities giving by monster type (that would be the Type I, Type II, and Type III abilities.) Divide it by four. That is the number of levels the character must advance before being considered a 2nd level PC.

Some abilities should be reduced in power, to make them comparable, and not overpowering. In these cases, for those which are able to be stagnated, detrmine a level progression. For abilities that cannot be so determined, decide what level the character will get the ability, instead.

Example of the minotaur:

Abilities of race: Powerful Charge (Type II) [will be stagnated at +1d6/3 levels; attack modifer remains +2 as charge], Darkvision 60 ft (Tye\pe --), Natural Cunning (Type II), Weapon Abilities (Type I; stagnate as per Fighter Weapon Specialization.)

Attribute modifiers -- Strength +2 (7HD = +1 and "powerfully built"); Con +2 (7 HD and implied lifestyle); -3 Intelligence (Low Intelligence, "dim-witted); -2 Charisma.

Positive attribute mod + monster abilities = 9 / 4 = 2.

The character must earn enough XP equal to a thied level character before advancing to 2nd. Essentially, the chart is shifted two levels, making the monster advance much slower, but compensated by its abilities.

Others will have their own system of course.

If your not talking about classes then am I to understand you don't have an old D&D version available? Or even a 3E?

Since it does sound like you want to know how many xp's its worth when killed than I think looking at the M&T xp rules (with errata added) and then looking at the example shaman done up for goblins, I think it is, you should find it easy to figure out. It looks to me like all the abilities would qualify as type 1 abilities.

It did sound like you were asking about building classes, especially with that last bit about the Kender.

Treebore wrote:
If your not talking about classes then am I to understand you don't have an old D&D version available? Or even a 3E?

Since it does sound like you want to know how many xp's its worth when killed than I think looking at the M&T xp rules (with errata added) and then looking at the example shaman done up for goblins, I think it is, you should find it easy to figure out. It looks to me like all the abilities would qualify as type 1 abilities.

It did sound like you were asking about building classes, especially with that last bit about the Kender.

Sorry but I am a bit lost here. I wrote an example of a race. Where did I write anything about XPs?

I basically asked how to "represent" class skills as racial skills (and their interaction), and whether penalizing a race was "appropriate" for the C&C race models. Actually, in the PHB there are no races which exhibit a racial skill which is a skill for some class. And there are no examples of races which are "penalised" beyond not having 3 primes.

Cheers,

Antonio

serleran wrote:
There is no "right way," or "official way." Yet. There is only what people do... mine is as follows:

To convert a monstrous race into a playable race is rather simple.

List the "Specials" given by the monster as racial abilities. These will be transfered exactly across.

Next, one determines the attribute adjustments, which is the far trickier part, but one can bend this part ot suit taste. Personally, I do this:

If HD > = 6 and Physical Prime, then +1 Stength and Con ; +1 / +3 HD > 6.

If movement (land speed) >= 30, then +1 Dex / +10 feet > 30

If HD >= 6 and Mental Prime, then +1 Wisdom and Int; +1 / +3 HD > 6.

If a monster is described as weak, cowardly, or some other seeming contradiction, apply a penalty instead to relevant attribute. However, if the monster is described as being particularly strong, or agile, and it is not reflected in the HD formula, give a +1 bonus anyway.

All monster races get -2 Charisma.

If Con modifer >= +3, +1 hit dice at level one; still use class-based type. Note that monsters which are listed as having class abilities or possibly having class abilties should favor those classes, getting a +2 bonus on 2-3 checks for that class.

Next, comes the hard part, and that is "balancing" the race. I disfavor XP penalties, as they become meaningless at high levels. Instead, I prefer something else, which is similar, but not quite. Add up the bonuses, and the Type abilities giving by monster type (that would be the Type I, Type II, and Type III abilities.) Divide it by four. That is the number of levels the character must advance before being considered a 2nd level PC.

Some abilities should be reduced in power, to make them comparable, and not overpowering. In these cases, for those which are able to be stagnated, detrmine a level progression. For abilities that cannot be so determined, decide what level the character will get the ability, instead.

Example of the minotaur:

Abilities of race: Powerful Charge (Type II) [will be stagnated at +1d6/3 levels; attack modifer remains +2 as charge], Darkvision 60 ft (Tye\pe --), Natural Cunning (Type II), Weapon Abilities (Type I; stagnate as per Fighter Weapon Specialization.)

Attribute modifiers -- Strength +2 (7HD = +1 and "powerfully built"); Con +2 (7 HD and implied lifestyle); -3 Intelligence (Low Intelligence, "dim-witted); -2 Charisma.

Positive attribute mod + monster abilities = 9 / 4 = 2.

The character must earn enough XP equal to a thied level character before advancing to 2nd. Essentially, the chart is shifted two levels, making the monster advance much slower, but compensated by its abilities.

Others will have their own system of course.

Thanks serleran, interesting example.

How would you deal with my class regarding the two explicit points I raised? Specifically, giving a race a class ability (and how it would interact with the class having the same ability). And whether "embedding" a penalty in the race description is appropriate. This penalty need not necessarily be an XP penalty to advance (although I like your suggestion very much). I was thinking of something more on the side of "role-playing", like the "Ogre Blood" characteristic above (in Dragonlance, Minotaurs have been enslaved by Dwarves, which could be explained by the combat prowess of the latter when facing them.)

Cheers,

Antonio

Personally, I prefer not to get too technical about it. I just make up the race or class and try to balance it's power compared to the other classes/player races in the campaign. If it has major bonuses (i.e. incredible strength), give it major drawbacks to compensate (i.e. light sensitivity, uncontrollable berserk rage, etc.). And don't forget the role-playing aspects...will they be unwelcome/attacked in cities, etc.?

Brian Miller
_________________
"The adventure continues"

rabindranath72 wrote:
Actually, in the PHB there are no races which exhibit a racial skill which is a skill for some class.

Several races possess move silently and similar abilties. Dwarves possess stone craft. A variation of the elf in the M&T possesses tracking. To name a few examples

Quote:
And there are no examples of races which are "penalised" beyond not having 3 primes.

Cheers,

Antonio

Most, if not all the races have some ability which is a negative modifier to offset some of the positive ability score mods.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

If a race has a class ability, I would simply allow member of that race to add level whenever they use the ability. If, however, it is a race with an ability that takes the class with the ability, I give a +2 bonus for such checks. Also, there is nothing wrong with embedding a penalty, provided it is a penalty and not something which can be easily ignored.

serleran wrote:
Also, there is nothing wrong with embedding a penalty, provided it is a penalty and not something which can be easily ignored.

i.e. minotaurs must graze 12 hours each day and can't cast spells when they chew their cud.
Brian Miller
_________________
"The adventure continues"

One other note: a monster that becomes a playable race must abide by the non-human rule of Primes, meaning... they get only two. Some races, like dragons, would be royally screwed by this, which is fine. The benefit is playing it, not in being the most powerful thing in the universe... though, I guess some people like that, too.

rabindranath72 wrote:
Sorry but I am a bit lost here. I wrote an example of a race. Where did I write anything about XPs?

I basically asked how to "represent" class skills as racial skills (and their interaction), and whether penalizing a race was "appropriate" for the C&C race models. Actually, in the PHB there are no races which exhibit a racial skill which is a skill for some class. And there are no examples of races which are "penalised" beyond not having 3 primes.

Cheers,

Antonio

I was definitely missing the whole point. good thing there are sharper sticks around.

gideon_thorne wrote:
Several races possess move silently and similar abilties. Dwarves possess stone craft. A variation of the elf in the M&T possesses tracking. To name a few examples

I was referring to exact class abilities. As I read them, the racial abilities are not explicitly like class abilities; rather, the characteristics of the race work as a base to "improve" some class abilities. So, the elves tend to be silent when moving, but their being "silent" does not allow them to perform the same as a "move silently" skill.

Quote:
Most, if not all the races have some ability which is a negative modifier to offset some of the positive ability score mods.

I was not referring to the attribute modifiers, which seem to be "self-adjusting" (bonuses and penalties balance out).

Cheers,

Antonio

serleran wrote:
If a race has a class ability, I would simply allow member of that race to add level whenever they use the ability. If, however, it is a race with an ability that takes the class with the ability, I give a +2 bonus for such checks. Also, there is nothing wrong with embedding a penalty, provided it is a penalty and not something which can be easily ignored.

Thanks! This is what I was trying to understand.

So, would you think my Minotaur is a good race design?

I'd change the tough hide to be like the half-orc ability of a similar nature (not cumulative with worn armor), but otherwise it seems decent. Maybe consider stipulating that minotaurs have to charge to use their horns in combat, which is why they inflict 2d4, but that's more a preference (and to power them down somewhat.)

So... yes, its workable. Some playtesting will see if there are any real problems.

serleran wrote:
I'd change the tough hide to be like the half-orc ability of a similar nature (not cumulative with worn armor), but otherwise it seems decent. Maybe consider stipulating that minotaurs have to charge to use their horns in combat, which is why they inflict 2d4, but that's more a preference (and to power them down somewhat.)

So... yes, its workable. Some playtesting will see if there are any real problems.

Thanks for the feedback!

Actually, the Though Hide should show that Minotaurs really have a though hide due to fur, muscles etc. So, treating it like the Half-Orc does not seem to have much sense (the fur and muscles are still there, even in armor).

The charge idea is a good one, I will try it.

Cheers,

Antonio