Rules questions regarding M&T 2nd ed.

nwelte1 · Post by **nwelte1** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 8:46 pm

I read through the M&T and loved it. Never cared for reading a monster book but this one was great. In the course of reading the material, I decided "hey it would be great to make some small stat blocks of easy cut and paste into my personal modules. In the course of doing so, I have had to reread each monster stat and I have discovered that I was puzzled by a few entries. I am hoping someone on these boards can provide some answers to these questions:

1.Barghest should it have immune fire listed under special?

2.If a creature has a special ability that causes damages independent of a melee attack, if it uses its special attack i.e. Spit, breath weapon, etc. is it unable to use its melee attacks? (I think the answer is yes.)

3.Since attribute stats are not given, how due you determine the + to damage, i.e. a strong orc attacking with a short sword? Is their any plus to damage or is it flat weapon damage?

4.Cockatrice's description states that a character must save v. str to avoid petrification, shouldn't this be wis. as per the PHB, or is it str because it is caused by a bite vs. gaze? Why not use con. instead since it seems to be more of disease caused by the bite?

5.General dragon special rules stat that dragons can do damage with wings. What is the damage? Can any size dragon due this damage? Is this damage in addition to it normal attacks, i.e. can a Fledgling Blk Dragon due 2 claws, 1 tail slap, 1 bite, and 2 wing attacks all in the same turn?

6.Is the dragon uses windblast, can it still attack with natural weapons?

7.Black Dragon description states a a black dragon gets charm reptiles 3/day with no limitation as to category of dragon, but then under the Spell-like abilities it states it gets charm reptiles 3/day at cat. 12. When does the Blk drg. get charm reptiles or due the Spell-like abilities and charm reptiles stack and grant an ancient blk drg. 6 uses of the ability?

8.Same question as 7 above but instead regarding corrupt water.

9.In determining damage regarding dragons the rules tell you to multiple or divide damage depending on category of dragon. Due you multiple/divide the base die roll and then at the damage bonus as determined by each dragons chart ( (i.e. ancient Blk. Drg. 1d4*1.5+10 on a roll of 4 would yield 16) or do you add the base damage to the die roll then multiple/divide (i.e. ancient Blk. Drg. (1d4+10)1.5 on a roll of 4 would yield 21)?

10.I assume when dividing DB as per the claw and wing rules for dragons you always round down. I looking in the PHB and could not find the rounding rule even though I recall seeing one. Can someone point me to the page for 3rd edition printing?

11.What is the exp progression for creatures that have more than 20HD, i.e. an Old or ancient bl. Drg.?

12. Am I just being to anal? (Don't answer this question.)

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 9:31 pm

You had to wait and ask after Serleran posts he is going to be gone from the boards for awhile, didn't you?

Serleran is the M&T author, so therefore the best one to get your anwsers from. I would PM him your questions if you want answers anytime soon. Then share those answers here.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 9:32 pm

Plus make sure these aren't answered in Selrerans stickied Q&A thread, or in Travellers errata list.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:30 am

nwelte1 wrote:
...looking in the PHB and could not find the rounding rule even though I recall seeing one. Can someone point me to the page for 3rd edition printing?

In the 3rd printing of the PHB, there is a general rounding rule under the section labeled "Dice" on p6. Round fractions down unless a specific rule, spell or the CK says otherwise.

There is also a rounding rule for saving vs. spell damage. It's rounded down (p50).

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nwelte1 · Post by **nwelte1** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:38 am

Thanks, both of you...

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:38 am

nwelte1 wrote:
6.Is the dragon uses windblast, can it still attack with natural weapons?

In the PHB, under Combat Terms on p114, the description for "action" indicates that a "monster may either attack or use a special ability". Unless otherwise stated, they cannot do both in the same round.

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nwelte1 · Post by **nwelte1** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 2:13 am

Treebore:

I check the Q&A as well as travler's errata.... nothing mentioned.....

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 2:27 am

nwelte1 wrote:
Treebore:

I check the Q&A as well as travler's errata.... nothing mentioned.....

I didn't think there was, but my memory is so faulty nowadays I feel lucky to remember who I am. I'm just glad it isn't Alzhimer's.
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BASH MAN · Post by **BASH MAN** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:20 am

In the case of the orc, its stats are unlisted unless they are exceptional. Thus a typical orc will not have any stats listed, while a berserk orc blood-screamer might have strength 16 listed in its stat block as a special thing.
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nwelte1 · Post by **nwelte1** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:31 am

BASH MAN wrote:
In the case of the orc, its stats are unlisted unless they are exceptional. Thus a typical orc will not have any stats listed, while a berserk orc blood-screamer might have strength 16 listed in its stat block as a special thing.

That is what I concluded as well from reading stat blocks in CZ - think there they are referred to as "significant attributes". Was just look from some official answer on that particular question, especially in light of the fact that there is the spell enhance attribute*. The * obviously denoting a spell that can be cast with the reverse effect. So if a stat is not given, what happens if I cast diminish attribute on Achaierai? How do i determine how that impacts the monster's damage output since str directly affects damage?

BASH MAN · Post by **BASH MAN** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:32 am

I assume all stats that are not "exceptional" are 10s. So if it has a -2 to StR, that lowers it to an 8, giving it a -1 to hit and damage. If it gets a +3 to STR, it has a 13, giving it a +1 to hit and damage.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 2:21 pm

Quote:
1.Barghest should it have immune fire listed under special?

No, because its mentioned in the description.

Quote:
2.If a creature has a special ability that causes damages independent of a melee attack, if it uses its special attack i.e. Spit, breath weapon, etc. is it unable to use its melee attacks? (I think the answer is yes.)

Depends on the nature of the attack, and whether anyone is within range. But, there is no rule stating it cannot use the ability... in fact, because it has the ability noted means it can use it.

Quote:
3.Since attribute stats are not given, how due you determine the + to damage, i.e. a strong orc attacking with a short sword? Is their any plus to damage or is it flat weapon damage?

None, unless you decide the creature gets a bonus for whatever reason. Normally, monsters that are very strong do more damage with their natural attacks anyway.

Quote:
4.Cockatrice's description states that a character must save v. str to avoid petrification, shouldn't this be wis. as per the PHB, or is it str because it is caused by a bite vs. gaze? Why not use con. instead since it seems to be more of disease caused by the bite?

Petrifaction is a Strength save. You can use whatever attribute you want, though, if you can justify it.

Quote:
5.General dragon special rules stat that dragons can do damage with wings. What is the damage? Can any size dragon due this damage? Is this damage in addition to it normal attacks, i.e. can a Fledgling Blk Dragon due 2 claws, 1 tail slap, 1 bite, and 2 wing attacks all in the same turn?

Any dragon with wings can use them, but they'd have to be strong enough to do anything significant. I'd just have them deal the dragon's natural combat damage modifier, maybe with a d4 - d12 depending on age. They are in addition unless the attacks line reads "Or"

Quote:
6.Is the dragon uses windblast, can it still attack with natural weapons?

Yep.

Quote:
7.Black Dragon description states a a black dragon gets charm reptiles 3/day with no limitation as to category of dragon, but then under the Spell-like abilities it states it gets charm reptiles 3/day at cat. 12. When does the Blk drg. get charm reptiles or due the Spell-like abilities and charm reptiles stack and grant an ancient blk drg. 6 uses of the ability?

They add together.

Quote:
8.Same question as 7 above but instead regarding corrupt water.

Same.

Quote:
9.In determining damage regarding dragons the rules tell you to multiple or divide damage depending on category of dragon. Due you multiple/divide the base die roll and then at the damage bonus as determined by each dragons chart ( (i.e. ancient Blk. Drg. 1d4*1.5+10 on a roll of 4 would yield 16) or do you add the base damage to the die roll then multiple/divide (i.e. ancient Blk. Drg. (1d4+10)1.5 on a roll of 4 would yield 21)?

Already answered.

Quote:
10.I assume when dividing DB as per the claw and wing rules for dragons you always round down. I looking in the PHB and could not find the rounding rule even though I recall seeing one. Can someone point me to the page for 3rd edition printing?

Already answered.

Quote:
11.What is the exp progression for creatures that have more than 20HD, i.e. an Old or ancient bl. Drg.?

Special. Wait for the CKG or M&T II. If you're using 20+ HD monsters as regular fare, it might be time to retire those PCs and start a new campaign...

Quote:
12. Am I just being to anal? Laughing (Don't answer this question.)

No, but I am.

nwelte1 · Post by **nwelte1** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:28 am

serleran wrote:
Petrifaction is a Strength save. You can use whatever attribute you want, though, if you can justify it.

I thought the character sheet and p. 112 of PHB 3rd edition say petrification is a wis. save. Not that I agree with the book I think a Wis. save is silly and and think a str. or con. save is best.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:32 am

Petrification is definitely a WIS save, as per the C&C PHB and the Transmute to Stone spell. However, it is entirely possible to have a special ability require a save that is different then the default of the PHB. As is the case with the Cockatrice's Petrification ability.

...........................................Omote

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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 2:08 am

Oh yes, Petrification is a "Wisdom save," due to the desire to remain faithful to AD&D (ie, clerics are the best at it)... a rule I am not that fond of, particularly, but the flexibility of the engine allows it to purr at different throttles. This is why I made that ability a Strength one... that, and the fact that the rules weren't even finished when it was written and it sneaked in.

Fizz · Post by **Fizz** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 3:04 am

serleran wrote:
a rule I am not that fond of, particularly, but the flexibility of the engine allows it to purr at different throttles. This is why I made that ability a Strength one... that, and the fact that the rules weren't even finished when it was written and it sneaked in.

Hmmm, not quite sure what you mean by different throttles, but i guess i wasn't crazy for having similar thoughts about making it a Strength save.

-Fizz

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:07 pm

I wish more of the spells followed the rules for what stat gives what save.

In fact, in my next house rules document I am going to say that all saves are based on what Attribute is described as being the basis for that type of save. When the spell description conflicts with that, the spell description is wrong.

Now I think I'll do the same for monsters.
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phadeout · Post by **phadeout** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 6:39 pm

Treebore wrote:
I wish more of the spells followed the rules for what stat gives what save.

In fact, in my next house rules document I am going to say that all saves are based on what Attribute is described as being the basis for that type of save. When the spell description conflicts with that, the spell description is wrong.

Now I think I'll do the same for monsters.

I totally have to agree here. It breaks what I believe is the "spirit" of C&C by doing this. You should be able to look at the "fluff" of a spell or ability, and come up with the appropriate saving throw just by looking at your character sheet or CK screen. You shouldn't have too look up each and every little rule like this, when it breaks the mold of "simplicity" and rules lite.
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kaomera · Post by **kaomera** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 9:25 pm

Treebore wrote:
I wish more of the spells followed the rules for what stat gives what save.

Personally I tend to call for saves based on the situation and the players descriptions of their characters actions. For example, avoiding a Fireball by diving for cover is normally a Dexterity save, but I would allow any of the other ability scores under certain circumstances:
Strength ~ Character standing in a doorway slams the door shut and braces it against the force of the explosion...
Intelligence ~ Character's knowledge of matters arcane lets her forsee the likely outcome of the enemy's incntations and start moving for cover before the spell is finished casting.
Wisdom ~ Character's keen senses let him forsee the likely outcome of the enemy's incntations and start moving for cover just as the spell is finished casting.
Constitution ~ Character ducks behind their shield and attempts to "ride out" the blast...
Charisma ~ Um... OK, possibly you could talk the guy out of actually casting the Fireball in the first place... Yeah... Some of the others are a bit sketchy, too, but unless a player starts overdoing it I think it should be cool... Of course I might increase the CLs if I think the player was pushing things.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 9:31 pm

The effect I love about C&C:

I'm able to guile a guillotine... it won't kill me. I have Charisma Prime!

Sometimes, the "rules" are to be ignored. They even say so.

phadeout · Post by **phadeout** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 10:06 pm

kaomera wrote:
Personally I tend to call for saves based on the situation and the players descriptions of their characters actions. For example, avoiding a Fireball by diving for cover is normally a Dexterity save, but I would allow any of the other ability scores under certain circumstances:
Strength ~ Character standing in a doorway slams the door shut and braces it against the force of the explosion...
Intelligence ~ Character's knowledge of matters arcane lets her forsee the likely outcome of the enemy's incntations and start moving for cover before the spell is finished casting.
Wisdom ~ Character's keen senses let him forsee the likely outcome of the enemy's incntations and start moving for cover just as the spell is finished casting.
Constitution ~ Character ducks behind their shield and attempts to "ride out" the blast...
Charisma ~ Um... OK, possibly you could talk the guy out of actually casting the Fireball in the first place... Yeah... Some of the others are a bit sketchy, too, but unless a player starts overdoing it I think it should be cool... Of course I might increase the CLs if I think the player was pushing things.

I feel the same way.

A crazy Knight wearing Full Plate and fighting a Fire Breathing Dragon! You never see pictures of the Knight "diving for cover" a'la Dexterity. You see him hunker down behind his shield and take the blast! CON save please...
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:44 am

phadeout wrote:
I feel the same way.

I crazy Knight wearing Full Plate and fighting a Fire Breathing Dragon! You never see pictures of the Knight "diving for cover" a'la Dexterity. You see him hunker down behind his shield and take the blast! CON save please...

But, but... what about the heavy armored paladin who with quickness and dexterity grabs his shield and barely puts it up in front of him to save against the fireball?! DEX, baby, DEX!

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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 2:13 am

kaomera wrote:
Personally I tend to call for saves based on the situation and the players descriptions of their characters actions. For example, avoiding a Fireball by diving for cover is normally a Dexterity save, but I would allow any of the other ability scores under certain circumstances:
Strength ~ Character standing in a doorway slams the door shut and braces it against the force of the explosion...
Intelligence ~ Character's knowledge of matters arcane lets her forsee the likely outcome of the enemy's incntations and start moving for cover before the spell is finished casting.
Wisdom ~ Character's keen senses let him forsee the likely outcome of the enemy's incntations and start moving for cover just as the spell is finished casting.
Constitution ~ Character ducks behind their shield and attempts to "ride out" the blast...
Charisma ~ Um... OK, possibly you could talk the guy out of actually casting the Fireball in the first place... Yeah... Some of the others are a bit sketchy, too, but unless a player starts overdoing it I think it should be cool... Of course I might increase the CLs if I think the player was pushing things.

Well, I can see this, just the spells don't often match up with how the base rules say they should.
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kaomera · Post by **kaomera** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 3:39 am

Omote wrote:
But, but... what about the heavy armored paladin who with quickness and dexterity grabs his shield and barely puts it up in front of him to save against the fireball?! DEX, baby, DEX!

Well, sure, Dex is the default. You don't even need to go to the lengths of description (not that it wouldn't be a good thing) to just take the Dex save. It's only when a player describes their actions so that a different save really makes sense that I would change it up.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 2:13 am

Well everybody else came up with such neat ways to use other attributes for the save, I wanted to bring it back to the book. Bring it back, bring it back.

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Rules questions regarding M&T 2nd ed.

Rules questions regarding M&T 2nd ed.

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