XP & Handwaving

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 7:09 pm

I posted this on another forum I visit but figured I'd cross post to get your opinions as well.

Hell, I'll even make a poll out of it.

On the different gaming forums I visit one thing I notice is a lot of DM's hand wave XP's. Its nothing new to gaming, but it is something that always surprises me. For the Dm's who do this, do your players not get agitated by the method? I mean, as a player I know it would irritate me to have my progression be determined arbitrarily as opposed to what I accomplished.

A lot of folks grumble about earlier editions and rules light games talking about general hand waving and DM fiat, but it seems to be a rather widespread practice when it comes to character advancement. The DM is basically stating, forget about what you've actually done, I feel you should level up now.

I guess I just don't get it. I've always been an anal note taker when I run a game and dole out XP at the end of a session. Prior to the next session I usually double check my notes to ensure I didn't make a mistake in the XP department too. Enough so that at the start of the next session I might even talk to a player and let him know I jipped him 200 XP due to a math error and have him fix it.

ssfsx17 · Post by **ssfsx17** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 7:13 pm

I do keep track of the XP numbers. They may not necessarily be "right" for the pace of the game, but they do represent that some things ought to be worth a lot and other things worth very little. If I need to slow down XP growth, I just multiply it by some number less than one.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 7:17 pm

I don't believe in bookkeeping.

Rigon · Post by **Rigon** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:40 pm

I usually keep track of xp, but sometimes, if I feel that the PCs deserve to go up, I grant them the xp to advance a level.

R-
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imweasel · Post by **imweasel** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:39 pm

serleran wrote:
I don't believe in bookkeeping.

Agree whole heartedly with this.

Simply level em up when the need arises.
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Philotomy Jurament · Post by **Philotomy Jurament** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:53 pm

I've gone both ways on this, at various times. However, with old-school systems, I prefer tracking the numbers. The main reason is the XP charts varying by class and the way multiclassing is typically handled. Since the rate of advancement is used as a "balancing factor," I take a "let the numbers fall where they may" approach.
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Maliki · Post by **Maliki** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:21 pm

Rigon wrote:
I usually keep track of xp, but sometimes, if I feel that the PCs deserve to go up, I grant them the xp to advance a level.

R-

Same here, I only track monster XPs, then I will award "story" XPs based on goals reached and how much I think they deserve, so I do a bit of both.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:25 pm

Philotomy Jurament wrote:
I've gone both ways on this, at various times. However, with old-school systems, I prefer tracking the numbers. The main reason is the XP charts varying by class and the way multiclassing is typically handled. Since the rate of advancement is used as a "balancing factor," I take a "let the numbers fall where they may" approach.

Thats an excellent point. With variable XP charts, do the hand wavers just raise folks levels or do you just hand wave a set XP amount?

Maliki · Post by **Maliki** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:26 pm

For my next campaign, I was going to just handwave the whole thing, since I was going to run the Pathfinder AP using C&C rules, I don't think C&C PCs would advance quick enough using the standard C&C XP awards, so I was going to hand out XPs keep to keep at the correct level.

I've since decided a different way to award the XPs (based on 3E challenge ratings), that will keep them on pace for the entire AP.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:31 pm

Maliki wrote:
For my next campaign, I was going to just handwave the whole thing, since I was going to run the Pathfinder AP using C&C rules, I don't think C&C PCs would advance quick enough using the standard C&C XP awards, so I was going to hand out XPs keep to keep at the correct level.

I've since decided a different way to award the XPs (based on 3E challenge ratings), that will keep them on pace for the entire AP.

So far, with my running of the Pathfinder I don't think my players are too far off the level track. I've been using the method outlined in the CZ: class & Skill options and the treasure XP's as well as the spell and skill use XP's seems to be keeping them mostly on track. I do award minor story awards too though for certain milestones.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:37 pm

Track and divvy, almost lways.

...........................................Omote

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Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:31 am

We (the players and I) track and award. I like to do it not from a control standpoint but from a "rewards" aspect. I want to give XP for the usual and then add more where good gaming requires it.
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Rigon · Post by **Rigon** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:34 am

DangerDwarf wrote:
With variable XP charts, do the hand wavers just raise folks levels or do you just hand wave a set XP amount?

If I do the handwave, I usually just give the PCs enough xp to reach the next level. So if a fighter needs 500 xp after an adventure and I want him to go up that level, I give him 501 xps.

R-
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jman5000 · Post by **jman5000** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 1:17 am

I track. I'm also one of the few CK's who award XP for treasure earned. I do award story XP, because role playing should not just be about killing and looting, but it's generally just a factor or multiple of the XP earned through combat.

Cheers,

J.

Rigon · Post by **Rigon** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 1:44 am

jman5000 wrote:
I'm also one of the few CK's who award XP for treasure earned.

I usually don't award xp for treasure, as I see treasure as its own reward, but having played in Treebore's game now for 5 months or so, I can see the value of doing it that way and am trying it out in my DL game.

jman5000 wrote:
I do award story XP, because role playing should not just be about killing and looting, but it's generally just a factor or multiple of the XP earned through combat.

This is something I've always done. It is usually a small amount (never more than a few hundred), but I like to reward good role playing, as it helps to encourage more. In my DL game on Sunday, I awarded Jaybird a nice little extra bonus for one kick a**e intro to his character.

R-
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SavageRobby · Post by **SavageRobby** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:13 am

I track XP, mainly based off monsters and story awards. A friend of mine has an ingeniously simple system for GP based XP - you get XP for each GP you spend on training. I'm going to use that in my next campaign.

csperkins1970 · Post by **csperkins1970** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 6:38 pm

At this point, I'm working on revising the XP tables for my group. Combat should provide higher XP awards for players and I want to codify roleplaying/story awards as well.

At this point, however, I'm "winging" XP awards based on players' actions and their effectiveness in meeting the challenges modules throw their way.

The CK in another C&C game I play in gives XP for treasure and magic items BUT I want to avoid this. It would encourage my players to be greedy and screw each other over for loot. I want to encourage teamwork, heroic action and strategic thinking.

So far it has worked well with my weekday group... they don't even loot corpses sometimes!

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 6:48 pm

csperkins1970 wrote:
It would encourage my players to be greedy and screw each other over for loot.

I've seen that sentiment more than a few times on various forums but I don't understand it.

The way I always handle it is the XP for treasure is put in a group pool, not individual and every player gets an equal share of the treasure XP. It doesn't matter if the rogue pocketed 2 diamonds or not, the group is the one who made it possible in some regard so the group gets the XP.

I handle critters the same way, everyone in the group gets XP for defeated monsters. I don't care if the fighter felled 5 of the 8 beasts, everyone gets a share. (I bring this up because on another forum someone mentioned people leveling quicker because a party member killed more creatures.)

jman5000 · Post by **jman5000** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 6:59 pm

its part of the basic social contract that you should be discussing with your players before the very first session - actually before you all sit down and make your characters (you all do that don't you? no? then how can you expect to all get along)

agree on a couple of very basic things

- how to divvy up treasure

- can rogues steal from the party

- what kind of game are you looking for/agree on

this has worked very very well for me in all the games I've ever run. players get what they are looking for, theres a shared understanding on some of the meta mechanics.. harmony...

Cheers,

J

csperkins1970 · Post by **csperkins1970** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 7:07 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
I've seen that sentiment more than a few times on various forums but I don't understand it.

The way I always handle it is the XP for treasure is put in a group pool, not individual and every player gets an equal share of the treasure XP. It doesn't matter if the rogue pocketed 2 diamonds or not, the group is the one who made it possible in some regard so the group gets the XP.

I handle critters the same way, everyone in the group gets XP for defeated monsters. I don't care if the fighter felled 5 of the 8 beasts, everyone gets a share. (I bring this up because on another forum someone mentioned people leveling quicker because a party member killed more creatures.)

That may work for most groups and I always encourage that kind of teamwork/sharing when I play or run a game. Sadly one of the groups I play with thoroughly enjoys one-upmanship and screwing each other over. I'm not exaggerating when I write that. They find harmonious groups to be boring (well, to be fair, 3 of 5 of them feel that way) and contrived. The name of the gaming group is The Rotten Bastards... with good reason.

Believe me... I'm with you!

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 7:15 pm

I'm still not understanding. Oneupmanship is cool, if thats what the party is into. But even if they come across a hoard of 1000gp and the fighter bullies the rest of the group, not allowing them to get any treasure. Or the rogue sneaks up in advance and jacks half the treasure, you as a CK know that the party earned 1000gp and could divide that 1000XP between them all equally.

So, yeah, the rogue one upped the others and has more gp then them, but the party still got equal XP. The party can screw eachother over for loot, but it doesn't effect the equal division of XP gained from that loot.

csperkins1970 · Post by **csperkins1970** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 7:50 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
I'm still not understanding. Oneupmanship is cool, if thats what the party is into. But even if they come across a hoard of 1000gp and the fighter bullies the rest of the group, not allowing them to get any treasure. Or the rogue sneaks up in advance and jacks half the treasure, you as a CK know that the party earned 1000gp and could divide that 1000XP between them all equally.

So, yeah, the rogue one upped the others and has more gp then them, but the party still got equal XP. The party can screw eachother over for loot, but it doesn't effect the equal division of XP gained from that loot.

I don't encourage the houserule of gp=xp because some players would expect to get xp for gold that their individual character gained after an encounter. Rather than have to fight them on that (and, whether you understand it or not, it would be the case) I would rather give out more XP for combat and extra, discretionary, XP for strategy, teamwork, moving the story along/dealing with problems effectively.

It amounts to my wanting to reward them for doing what they should be doing but rather wouldn't. Two groups that I game with don't work this way but my Saturday group, unfortunately, does.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 7:58 pm

csperkins1970 wrote:
I don't encourage the houserule of gp=xp because some players would expect to get xp for gold that their individual character gained after an encounter.

Ah-ha! Now I get what you're saying.

It never ended up being an issue for my groups because I generally pass out a house rule document prior to the first session which outlines things like XP gain and all that other stuff.

Philotomy Jurament · Post by **Philotomy Jurament** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:00 pm

WRT: GP == XP.

My view on that is that the XP award for treasure is an convenient abstraction, much like hit points are a convenient abstraction. It doesn't "make sense" that PCs get XP for gold, instead of for various other activities, but it makes for a convenient way to handle XP that fits is compatible with most campaigns. In that sense, it is a sort of story award.

(I don't limit myself to monster and treasure awards, though.)
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Craig C · Post by **Craig C** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:24 pm

I don't hand wave levels but use a reasoanbly quick system. I track XP for combat but also give a base XP per week based on the average party level (we tend to have less combats these days). On top of that there are story rewards (500-1000 x average party level for major story goals) and also bonus for major magic items (I don't give out XP for minor items such as potions) when I remember. I don't give xp for standard treasure though:

Avge Party

Level (base XP per week)

1 200

2 200

3 450

4 850

5 1700

6 3400

7 6800

8 10,000

9 12,500

10 + 15,000

Craig