Hi all,
Brand new here. My gaming group and I all picked up a copy of the C&C PHB at Gencon and we're starting our game up this Friday. I'm really excited to get started but I have a question about saving throws.
I've looked around a bit on the forums but haven't really seen this addressed.
It seems to me that saving throws that rely on non-prime attributes are simply going to be nearly impossible at any character level.
Here's how I understand it, please correct me if I'm wrong.
Challenge Level for non-prime stat save:
CB=18
CL=HD or level of opponent
CC=CB+CL
Save for non-prime stat:
Save=d20+Level+AbilityMod
So if I'm a level 1 fighter making a (non-prime) int (+1 modifier) save vs a spell cast by a level 1 Mage:
CC=18+1=19
Save=d20+1+1=d20+2
So my roll has to be a 17 or better on a d20.
Fast forward 14 levels, same scenario:
15 level fighter, non prime save, +1 modifier, 15 level Mage.
CC=18+15=33
Save=d20+15+1=d20+16
My roll still has to be a 17 or better on a d20.
Is that right?
Even though I'm Level 15, I have no better chance of saving when fighting enemies of my own level. While I'll probably have no problem saving against a level 1 guy when I'm level 15, I will be hard pressed to ever make a non-prime save unless I'm fighting way below my level. Attribute scores don't really go up in C&C and I'm likely not to have a magic item that boosts a non-prime stat (why wouldn't the wizard get the +int item, etc).
I can see people failing a huge majority of their non-prime saves throughout the entire life of their character. So my question is:
Is this correct and working as intended? It seems odd to me, but I'd like to know the official scoop on this please.
A corollary to this question is this. If saving throws for non prime stats work this way, does this overpower spell casters and creatures with supernatural abilities that require saves?
It seems forcing a save becomes tremendously powerful, since one can simply blast foes with spells or effects that require non-prime saves (which can be often be predicted for most foes).
Sorry for posting so much. Thank you in advance for your thoughts and replies.
The Capn
Secondary Stat Saving Throws not possible?
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capn_crunch
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Quote:
Is this correct and working as intended?
Yes, it is correct. Equal level saves are difficult to make, for any level. You are "getting better" but not against those who are also "getting better." That is, you ability to save is offset by the power of the one making you save in the first place.
Quote:
If saving throws for non prime stats work this way, does this overpower spell casters and creatures with supernatural abilities that require saves?
Spellcasters: no. They are slow to advance and are rarely high level; if you're using multiple 15th level spellcasters in an encounter, you should expect the party to die - its that's simple. High-level spellcasters are powerful and not to be dealt with in a "ho hum" fashion.
Creatures: not really. Such creatures are usually encountered solo or in small numbers (most likely for low-medium HD creatures.) This allows them to affect few at a time, giving a chance for the party to deal with whatever is going on. Also, not every encounter is supposed to end in victory for the party... they must know when to cut and run, and if that means they run from everything, then maybe they need to develop some better strategies.
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gideon_thorne
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Re: Secondary Stat Saving Throws not possible?
Yup. You pretty much nailed the intent. Characters can't be good at everything.
However, if you want a more survivable rate for your characters you could modify the numbers a bit. Perhaps a 12/15 system. Other folks around here play with the two numbers a bit to work within their comfort level. It's not going to break the game to do so as long as your numbers are consistent.
Some folks even have one set of numbers for saves, another for class ability rolls and so forth. It all works.
Also, bear in mind, one can play with statistical probabilities of die rolls all day. Many here often do much to the headache of us less mathematically oriented.
But, seldom do statistical probabilities come into play with the random roll in the die.
This is a game of risk and reward. Big risks generally equal big reward. If the risk is lessened, how much does the player then value their reward? Lucky die rolls are also part of the game and adds to the drama level when everything hangs on the roll of the die.
Something to think about before modifications to the system are considered.
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Peter Bradley
However, if you want a more survivable rate for your characters you could modify the numbers a bit. Perhaps a 12/15 system. Other folks around here play with the two numbers a bit to work within their comfort level. It's not going to break the game to do so as long as your numbers are consistent.
Some folks even have one set of numbers for saves, another for class ability rolls and so forth. It all works.
Also, bear in mind, one can play with statistical probabilities of die rolls all day. Many here often do much to the headache of us less mathematically oriented.
But, seldom do statistical probabilities come into play with the random roll in the die.
This is a game of risk and reward. Big risks generally equal big reward. If the risk is lessened, how much does the player then value their reward? Lucky die rolls are also part of the game and adds to the drama level when everything hangs on the roll of the die.
Something to think about before modifications to the system are considered.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven
Peter Bradley
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach
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csperkins1970
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I use a 10/15 split in my game and it works better for my players. 12/18 made for too much frustration and, as a guy who's trying to move his gaming group away from D&D 3.5, I want the game to be fun.
C&C is made for such houserules... as there's plenty of stuff you'll want to tweak as you learn the ropes. Enjoy your game!
C&C is made for such houserules... as there's plenty of stuff you'll want to tweak as you learn the ropes. Enjoy your game!
I have existed from the morning of the world and I shall exist until the last star falls from the night. Although I have taken the form of Gaius Caligula, I am all men as I am no man and therefore I am... a god.
csperkins1970 wrote:
I use a 10/15 split in my game and it works better for my players. 12/18 made for too much frustration and, as a guy who's trying to move his gaming group away from D&D 3.5, I want the game to be fun.
C&C is made for such houserules... as there's plenty of stuff you'll want to tweak as you learn the ropes. Enjoy your game!
Hmmm...
I might have to steal this as well.
I wonder how this will work out at higher levels when characters get multiple bonuses (due to whatever) to their saves.
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Yes, that is how it works. This was something that was argued about in the past.
As a house rule [the game is designed to be house-ruled] you could mitigate this in some way-- have the Difficulty of a spell save be based on the spell's level and INT bonus of the caster like in 3.5 or simply the INT bonus of the caster.
As a fighter, one of your primes should be INT or CHA to defend vs. illusions or compulsion magic, and all your high stat scores be in STR, Dex, and Con, as those actually matter for combat.
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As a house rule [the game is designed to be house-ruled] you could mitigate this in some way-- have the Difficulty of a spell save be based on the spell's level and INT bonus of the caster like in 3.5 or simply the INT bonus of the caster.
As a fighter, one of your primes should be INT or CHA to defend vs. illusions or compulsion magic, and all your high stat scores be in STR, Dex, and Con, as those actually matter for combat.
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Potential House rule on saves:
To successfully make a save, you need a 20 in a non prime stat or a 15 in a prime stat. Add your stat bonus & level.
So at level 1 with 16 INT, you'd have d20+2, meaning you'd need an 18 or better for a non-prime int save, but only a 13 for a STR save.
At level 15, you'd have a d20+16, meaning you succeed on a 4 for an INT save or only fail on a natural 1 on a STR save.
This is more how it worked in D&D Basic/Expert set-- saves were finite numbers-- RARELY adding difficulty mods like -2 or something like that.
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To successfully make a save, you need a 20 in a non prime stat or a 15 in a prime stat. Add your stat bonus & level.
So at level 1 with 16 INT, you'd have d20+2, meaning you'd need an 18 or better for a non-prime int save, but only a 13 for a STR save.
At level 15, you'd have a d20+16, meaning you succeed on a 4 for an INT save or only fail on a natural 1 on a STR save.
This is more how it worked in D&D Basic/Expert set-- saves were finite numbers-- RARELY adding difficulty mods like -2 or something like that.
_________________
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Philotomy Jurament
- Ulthal
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I eventually went back to the 1E saving throw table for my C&C games; its model better matches my thinking on how saving throws should work. However, I still use ability checks in some situations that I don't consider "last ditch saving throw" circumstances.
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capn_crunch
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I'm not sure changing the split from 12/18 to another set of numbers is what I'd go for. While that would lessen the saving throw problem somewhat, I think it would make standard attribute checks a bit too easy. For other attribute checks, the system works fine since you can add your level to most attribute checks. Level bonuses work great because the Challenge Level is not rising all the time for performing the same action. Moving a specific heavy item has the same challenge class at level 1 as it does at level 15.
The problem is specific to saves because the Challenge Class of a save from an opponent of your level always stays the same high level of difficulty.
Resisting a charm person spell gets harder every time the caster's level increases. While this may be good for the spell caster, this negates your own level bonus, making the Challenge Base and your ability mod all important. For a non-prime skill this means that fighting a spell caster of your own level or (God forbid) higher is basically suicide, probably for the whole party.
Regarding the idea that spell casters advance more slowly than fighters, I would have to disagree. 10th level and beyond, fighters and mages need the same exact xp at every level. This means that our hypothetical Fighter must earn a tremendous amount of xp while watching his ability to kill or even harm our hypothetical mage go straight down the tubes. In my last post I looked at the situation from the fighter's point of view, let's take a look at it from the wizards perspective. I won't be taking 0 level spells into account.
At level 1, our mage friend had very low hp and only three spells at his disposal.
The fighter could kill him with one successful hit, but it is still possible for the mage to cast a spell like charm or sleep and win the day. While the advantage is probably with the fighter at this level, forcing a save which results in a 4/5 or greater chance of failure is still a pretty good position to be in.
Fast forward to level 15. Our mage friend now should have a few items that help him with his AC, but probably not enough that the fighter can't hit him. With items and hp he should be able to survive a hit or two from the fighter. The fighter still has the same 4/5 chance of failure on non-prime saves, but the difference here is that the wizard has over 30 spells to choose from! Various Walls, the ability to fly, maze, etc, etc, etc. He can force save after save while remaining well out of harms way, and with the supremely low chance the fighter will save over and over, there is almost no way the mage can lose.
Even against a full party, a smart spell caster should be able to wipe them out with a few area of effect spells that force saves (since there will always be a couple of members of a party that will not have a particular stat as prime).
The 4/5 chance mentioned above is for a fighter with a non-prime attribute with a bonus of +1. If the fighter is saving against something against his "dump stat" he may have a mod of 0, -1 or even -2! This makes his chance to fail 5/6, 9/10 or 19/20 respectively!
While this may be "balanced" numerically speaking, I think it gives way too much advantage to spell casters. The class has a very high chance of taking out party members with no need "to hit" in many cases. And they have vastly more tools at their disposal than a normal class.
I think it's perfectly reasonable to avoid making spell casters so powerful by giving all classes (including spell casters) a bonus to all saves every x levels. I'm thinking maybe +1 every 4 levels would make sense. This could be easily explained in that even though the character is not getting more intelligent (charismatic, etc), he is learning more about the world around him and the nature of magic through his adventuring and is thus better able to avoid magical attacks.
While it can be said that this is what the level bonus does, I submit that as a slight reigning in of the power of spell casters, this additional bonus is needed in the case of saving throws.
The problem is specific to saves because the Challenge Class of a save from an opponent of your level always stays the same high level of difficulty.
Resisting a charm person spell gets harder every time the caster's level increases. While this may be good for the spell caster, this negates your own level bonus, making the Challenge Base and your ability mod all important. For a non-prime skill this means that fighting a spell caster of your own level or (God forbid) higher is basically suicide, probably for the whole party.
Regarding the idea that spell casters advance more slowly than fighters, I would have to disagree. 10th level and beyond, fighters and mages need the same exact xp at every level. This means that our hypothetical Fighter must earn a tremendous amount of xp while watching his ability to kill or even harm our hypothetical mage go straight down the tubes. In my last post I looked at the situation from the fighter's point of view, let's take a look at it from the wizards perspective. I won't be taking 0 level spells into account.
At level 1, our mage friend had very low hp and only three spells at his disposal.
The fighter could kill him with one successful hit, but it is still possible for the mage to cast a spell like charm or sleep and win the day. While the advantage is probably with the fighter at this level, forcing a save which results in a 4/5 or greater chance of failure is still a pretty good position to be in.
Fast forward to level 15. Our mage friend now should have a few items that help him with his AC, but probably not enough that the fighter can't hit him. With items and hp he should be able to survive a hit or two from the fighter. The fighter still has the same 4/5 chance of failure on non-prime saves, but the difference here is that the wizard has over 30 spells to choose from! Various Walls, the ability to fly, maze, etc, etc, etc. He can force save after save while remaining well out of harms way, and with the supremely low chance the fighter will save over and over, there is almost no way the mage can lose.
Even against a full party, a smart spell caster should be able to wipe them out with a few area of effect spells that force saves (since there will always be a couple of members of a party that will not have a particular stat as prime).
The 4/5 chance mentioned above is for a fighter with a non-prime attribute with a bonus of +1. If the fighter is saving against something against his "dump stat" he may have a mod of 0, -1 or even -2! This makes his chance to fail 5/6, 9/10 or 19/20 respectively!
While this may be "balanced" numerically speaking, I think it gives way too much advantage to spell casters. The class has a very high chance of taking out party members with no need "to hit" in many cases. And they have vastly more tools at their disposal than a normal class.
I think it's perfectly reasonable to avoid making spell casters so powerful by giving all classes (including spell casters) a bonus to all saves every x levels. I'm thinking maybe +1 every 4 levels would make sense. This could be easily explained in that even though the character is not getting more intelligent (charismatic, etc), he is learning more about the world around him and the nature of magic through his adventuring and is thus better able to avoid magical attacks.
While it can be said that this is what the level bonus does, I submit that as a slight reigning in of the power of spell casters, this additional bonus is needed in the case of saving throws.
you make good points capn... however, I don't disagree in the odds/mechanics, I disagree in flavour.
a 15th level mage should be so friggen scary that if you don't run in fear with wet pants between your legs, they you are retarded. never ever and ever go toe to toe with a 15th level mage. At that level, they rule mighty empires and shake worlds...
ambush them, fight them on your terms... throw mooks at him to depleat his spells, make him dance to your tune... it's hard work but well worth it.
look at it from the mages perspective, a 15th level fireball SHOULD be hard to defend against.
now, here's where your math goes a bit out the window. by 15th, that fighter should have some hefty magic of his own. if he's not sporting at least a SR of 10, then he's been looting the wrong dungeons. a 50% spell failure on top of a save is a pretty good way to level the playing field. add to it the other various and sundry items he'd have and I don't think the fight would be as lop sided as you think... however, i'd still never go toe to toe with em...
Cheers,
J.
a 15th level mage should be so friggen scary that if you don't run in fear with wet pants between your legs, they you are retarded. never ever and ever go toe to toe with a 15th level mage. At that level, they rule mighty empires and shake worlds...
ambush them, fight them on your terms... throw mooks at him to depleat his spells, make him dance to your tune... it's hard work but well worth it.
look at it from the mages perspective, a 15th level fireball SHOULD be hard to defend against.
now, here's where your math goes a bit out the window. by 15th, that fighter should have some hefty magic of his own. if he's not sporting at least a SR of 10, then he's been looting the wrong dungeons. a 50% spell failure on top of a save is a pretty good way to level the playing field. add to it the other various and sundry items he'd have and I don't think the fight would be as lop sided as you think... however, i'd still never go toe to toe with em...
Cheers,
J.
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gideon_thorne
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capn_crunch wrote:
While this may be "balanced" numerically speaking, I think it gives way too much advantage to spell casters. The class has a very high chance of taking out party members with no need "to hit" in many cases. And they have vastly more tools at their disposal than a normal class.
Spellcasters are supposed to be more powerful, by intention. Makes up for their low survivability at low levels. Mages of real power are a threat, and not to be trifled with without some heavy duty back up or defence.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven
Peter Bradley
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach
Hi CC,
I had and still have the same concerns as you. However, I have yet to run into any real problems...so far.
Some things to consider is that Clerics, Bards, K'nigits as well as others can buff. Also, magic items can help with saves- Ring o' protec, the + in Shields or Armour if they can be used to help block the attack. Racial bonuses...
These thing and more can help with saves and I have found *do* help considerably. So, no reason for me to change things. But it is something that I am keeping an eye on.
When all else fails, go back to 1E.
Also, welcome to the C&C!
I had and still have the same concerns as you. However, I have yet to run into any real problems...so far.
Some things to consider is that Clerics, Bards, K'nigits as well as others can buff. Also, magic items can help with saves- Ring o' protec, the + in Shields or Armour if they can be used to help block the attack. Racial bonuses...
These thing and more can help with saves and I have found *do* help considerably. So, no reason for me to change things. But it is something that I am keeping an eye on.
When all else fails, go back to 1E.
Also, welcome to the C&C!
I think I have to agree with CC...but maybe it is because I am used to 3.5 D&D. There has to be a way that doesn't ensure that a character with a non prime stat has a chance to make a save that would be out of their "prime" range. Maybe giving players a +1 to all saves every 4th or 5th lvl. Does anyone else do this?
This will take some play testing.
I will suggest to our group we change the saves to 12 for prime and 16 for non prime.
I don't like charts and besides, the 1e charts basically mean auto saves for most high level characters and that's not balanced either.
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I will suggest to our group we change the saves to 12 for prime and 16 for non prime.
I don't like charts and besides, the 1e charts basically mean auto saves for most high level characters and that's not balanced either.
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Someone ever tries to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back!
My group came straight from playing D&D 3.5, and we had the same issue. Nonprime saves were just too hard. So we tried setting the CB's to 10 and 15, then 11 and 16, and finally we went back to 12 and 18. Eventually, we realized that the rules as written seemed to work best for us. It makes the party's illusionist a real threat to the enemies, and the PC's know to take out evil wizards first, or at least hit them when they are casting a spell.
One question for you: do you require actions to be declared before the initiative roll? It makes sense to do so when someone wants to cast a spell, and it evens the playing field a little more.
One question for you: do you require actions to be declared before the initiative roll? It makes sense to do so when someone wants to cast a spell, and it evens the playing field a little more.
I like the fact that my 12th level player PC's are actually afraid when a spell that they have to make a non-Prime save for still scares them.
Plus, as a wizard player, you become glad that your not forced to become weaker just so your "fair" to everyone else.
Plus I did not realize the Fighter's XP's are equal the the Wizards after 10th level. I also did not realize that the Knight and Paladin require more XP's than than the Wizard after 10th, Definitely some fixes needed there.
Plus I notice the Knight only needs 125,000 XP's to go from 10th to 11th level, after needing 300,000 to go from 9th to 10th level. Then to go from 11th to 12th LVL they only need 175,000 XP's, Thats messed up as well.
It should be 300,000 XP's, or more, for the Knight every level after 9th.
So it should read:
10 600,001
11 900,001
12 1,200,001
13 +300,000 per level
Or, if the 175,000 is the correct value, sit should read:
10 475,001
11 650,001
12 825,001
13 +175,000 per level.
I have a feeling it should be the second chart.
Plus that also means to me that the Paladin's XP is way to high, so are the Fighters, and the Wizards and Illusionists are way too low.
Hmmm. Going to have to do some major re-writing of the XP tables now.
Or just use the 2E XP tables.
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Plus, as a wizard player, you become glad that your not forced to become weaker just so your "fair" to everyone else.
Plus I did not realize the Fighter's XP's are equal the the Wizards after 10th level. I also did not realize that the Knight and Paladin require more XP's than than the Wizard after 10th, Definitely some fixes needed there.
Plus I notice the Knight only needs 125,000 XP's to go from 10th to 11th level, after needing 300,000 to go from 9th to 10th level. Then to go from 11th to 12th LVL they only need 175,000 XP's, Thats messed up as well.
It should be 300,000 XP's, or more, for the Knight every level after 9th.
So it should read:
10 600,001
11 900,001
12 1,200,001
13 +300,000 per level
Or, if the 175,000 is the correct value, sit should read:
10 475,001
11 650,001
12 825,001
13 +175,000 per level.
I have a feeling it should be the second chart.
Plus that also means to me that the Paladin's XP is way to high, so are the Fighters, and the Wizards and Illusionists are way too low.
Hmmm. Going to have to do some major re-writing of the XP tables now.
Or just use the 2E XP tables.
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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
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anonymous
You could have a point here: the high XP for a Paladin is a tradition inherited from AD&D, but the C&K Paladin is not as powerful. The AD&D Paladin had all the abilities of a normal Fighter, unlike his C&K counterpart, plus all the other Paladin abilities with the exception of Smite Evil and Divine Healing (the latter only duplicating what a Cleric could do anyway) and could cast spells at higher levels.
oh, xp progressions have been broken all along. the arguments about them have been deflected and obfuscated by some pretty compelling straw men arguments but at the end of the day, it's broken.
I still use it because I'm lazy, and my players play because they are having fun, not because they must level quickly.
so it's no big deal
Cheers,
J.
I still use it because I'm lazy, and my players play because they are having fun, not because they must level quickly.
so it's no big deal
Cheers,
J.