Is the fighter too weak? Evaluate my house rules, please?

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imweasel
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Post by imweasel »

zomben wrote:
Interesting that I keep hearing that same sort of comment.

So, for those of you who don't think the fighters are 'too weak' would you say that their ability to learn different types of weapons and armor makes up for them not getting 'kewl powerz' every few levels?

Pretty much so, but considering that we are only level 6-7 atm it's hard to tell if that will be enough at higher levels.
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serleran
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Post by serleran »

Fighters are pathetic.

I'm going to give them an ability, once per half round, called: The Smote of Ruin which allows them to attack any single creature, or single group of creatures (they must all be within 1 mile per point of the sum of all attribute scores), and inflict 10 times fighter's maximum HP damage, with a save allowed for 90%. And, to make it even better, the fighter only has to hit AC 5. If this attack is successful, the fighter immediately gains a level, too.

That should more than compensate the weakness inherent in being the only class who doesn't suck in straight combat.

Oh, and, I don't really think fighters "suck." I find them a bit boring to play, but I like having "the neat abilities."

imweasel
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Post by imweasel »

serleran wrote:
Oh, and, I don't really think fighters "suck." I find them a bit boring to play, but I like having "the neat abilities."

Eventually though, 'the neat abilities' might far outweigh the +3 to hit +2 to damage bonus fighters get.
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Shaeffer
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Post by Shaeffer »

serleran wrote:
Fighters are pathetic.

I'm going to give them an ability, once per half round, called: The Smote of Ruin which allows them to attack any single creature, or single group of creatures (they must all be within 1 mile per point of the sum of all attribute scores), and inflict 10 times fighter's maximum HP damage, with a save allowed for 90%. And, to make it even better, the fighter only has to hit AC 5. If this attack is successful, the fighter immediately gains a level, too.

That should more than compensate the weakness inherent in being the only class who doesn't suck in straight combat.

Oh, and, I don't really think fighters "suck." I find them a bit boring to play, but I like having "the neat abilities."

That, in the old days, would be called a zinger Nice one!

Fighters appear fine to me, as is. My entire group of players is jazzed about C&C, but find it hard to settle on a single class to play. Fighters, however, are becoming a fast favorite because of the ammount of combat in our games.

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bighara
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Post by bighara »

Personally, I think fighters are pretty tough as is.

I did the math once, and a 1st level Elven Fighter with a Longsword and an 18 ST is a scary thing!

+1 BtH (Ftr1)

+1/+1 (to hit/damage) Weapon Specialization (Class Ability)

+3/+3 (to hit/damage) 18 ST

+1 to hit Elven racial weapon specialization

= +6 to hit/+4 damage!

Granted, that's a little bit min-maxed, but still!
I do like the tweak that Combat Dominance affects all 1HD critters, though.
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kaomera
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Post by kaomera »

imweasel wrote:
Eventually though, 'the neat abilities' might far outweigh the +3 to hit +2 to damage bonus fighters get.

IMHO not before 10th level, when the Fighter's best ability kicks in...
I'm tempted to use 1e-style multiple attacks, the only thing really holding me back is that I'm not sure it gives the Fighter as much edge as being the only class to ever get that second attack. I suppose if I use the enhanced progression from the UA for Weapon Specialization...
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zomben
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Post by zomben »

serleran wrote:
Fighters are pathetic.

I'm going to give them an ability, once per half round, called: The Smote of Ruin which allows them to attack any single creature, or single group of creatures (they must all be within 1 mile per point of the sum of all attribute scores), and inflict 10 times fighter's maximum HP damage, with a save allowed for 90%. And, to make it even better, the fighter only has to hit AC 5. If this attack is successful, the fighter immediately gains a level, too.

That should more than compensate the weakness inherent in being the only class who doesn't suck in straight combat.

Oh, and, I don't really think fighters "suck." I find them a bit boring to play, but I like having "the neat abilities."

Well, thanks for the incredibly unhelpful post.

serleran
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Post by serleran »

Quote:
Well, thanks for the incredibly unhelpful post.

Sure thing, but I think you're misunderstanding. I'm simply saying that I don't think your changes are needed, since the fighter, as is, is pretty good... actually, better than other classes, at straight combat. However, in games where combat is not the focal point, like 99% of them, the fighter is rather pointless... they have no "neat abilities." Rangers know things, paladins can cure the sick... but all a fighter can do is kill stuff. So, if I were to make changes, it would be to give them something to do that's not about combat.

If you want an actual critique of what your changes are: have you tried them? Did they "work?" Was it fun? If they do, then they don't need to be changed.

zomben
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Post by zomben »

serleran wrote:
Sure thing, but I think you're misunderstanding.

No, I didn't misunderstand at all. I understood exactly what you were trying to say. It was just incredibly unhelpful.
serleran wrote:
If you want an actual critique of what your changes are: have you tried them? Did they "work?" Was it fun? If they do, then they don't need to be changed.

No, I have not yet tried them. As I said in my initial post, I'm starting a game in a few weeks, and was hoping to get feedback from people who've played the game more than I have.

Quite possibly, from what I'm hearing, the changes are unnecessary, and I'll probably just abandon them for now (especially now that it looks like none of the PCs are going to be playing Fighters).

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Post by Fizz »

kaomera wrote:
IMHO not before 10th level, when the Fighter's best ability kicks in...

I think a good way around this is to give them 3/2 attacks at 5th level. It creates a more uniform progression of attacks without being too complicated. It doesn't affect the long-term power potential, just gives them a bit of a boost at the mid-levels.

-Fizz

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moriarty777
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Post by moriarty777 »

Variety is the spice of life... I don't think they are *bad* changes but it's more how you view fighters in your campaign when measured up to the other classes.

I've only did one tweak to the fighter class myself and, like many, it had to do with changing/swapping out the Combat Dominance ability.

Your initial 'Arsenal' skill is fine and I think underlines the notion that a Fighter is a master of weapons.

I know I posted this before, but what I've done and play tested was this:
Combat Dominance (Revised)
At 4th level, the fighter gains an extra attack when scoring a hit on an opponent with half the fighter's hit dice or less. The extra attack should be considered a 'follow-through' where the fighter is exploiting a weakness in an opponent. Provided the target of the original attack meets the hit die criteria, this extra attack may be directed to a different opponent as long as they are within reach and also meet the hit die criteria. This ability improves as the fighter progresses in levels with an additional attack gained every four levels thereafter. Combat Dominance does not combine with the Extra Attack ability and cannot be applied to ranged weapons.

With these modifications, my campaign saw a Halfling Fighter go toe to toe with a handful of Ungerns! Armed with a flail, this fourth level warrior was getting a potential second attack against these 2HD beasties!

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Treebore
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Post by Treebore »

You may want to use "feats" like I do, which is pretty much the way you handle swinging from a chandelier. A SIEGE check. The CL is usually who they are attempting to make the maneuver against.

This way, I use the BtH of the class, not HD anymore. In the case of the Fighter they can also add their "specialization" bonus, so they have a +2 BtH to hit when attempting these maneuvers, when compared t the other fighter types. Which often makes a difference when they attempt such maneuvers. Typical feats my players use are Cleave, Great Cleave, an extra attack, Power Attack, and eventually even Whirlwind, but Whirlwind is very hard to do against even 3 opponents.

I do not allow STR or magic bonus' because I look at pulling these maneuvers off as being purely skill based.

As for the Thief question, I treat any skill that the class should be good at as being Prime, irregardless of what the related stat is.
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Maliki
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Post by Maliki »

I've toyed with dozens of "fixes" for the fighter but I pretty much settled on replacing Combat Dominance with Cleave (from 3E), and I only did that so my players would shut up about combat dominace, nobody really thought it was useful.

I can see what Serl means about the fighter being plain, rather than weak, but IMHO that could/should be fixed by the player.
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Craig C
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Post by Craig C »

Fighters aeeem ot be the most poplular class in our group- we've only jsut had our first knights and paladins and are about to have our first ranger starting next week.

I too use cleave instead of combat dominance.

I did give fighters 2E specialisation attacks but have since taken it away as the combo of multiple attacks + cleave made them a bit over the top by about 5th- 6th level. Even cleave is IMO a bit powerful, the paladin and knight in the party have been a bit depressed at how mcuh damage the fighers have been doing while they've been struggling to hit let alone do damage!

I also allow for 2 weapon fighting (-2/-2) or archery (with multiple attacks as per 2E specialisation) but have yet to see an archery fighter (both styles adapted from Maliki's post on DF a couple of years ago).

As for being plain/bland, all our fighters have been played differently and I really don't see them as being bland at all, each fighter has been different to the others.

Craig

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