Points based magic system

[StealthSuitStanley]

I'm not too hot on the Vancian magic system and I am searching for a points based system to incorporate into C&C. I recall reading somewhere about someone who uses a points based system where the mages must have staffs with runes carved in them. This sounds interesting to me.

I would be interested in any links to point based magic systems that can be incorporated into C&C with little trouble.

Thanks!
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SSS

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"Size matters not."

-Yoda, Jedi Master

[DangerDwarf]

StealthSuitStanley wrote:
I recall reading somewhere about someone who uses a points based system where the mages must have staffs with runes carved in them. This sounds interesting to me.

That would be here.

[Jason Vey]

http://www.grey-elf.com/candc/

Check out my "Channeling" PDF. It's exactly what you're looking for.

Note that it was originally developed for d20, so there are undoubtedly some lingering anachronisms in there (such as starting MEP for Rangers, who in C&C don't get spells).

It shouldn't change the functionality of it, though. Kind of like the leftover vampiric Turn Resistance in the first printing of M&T
Oh, and it's also been pointed out to me (iirc) that I mixed up CL and CC in the rules. But again, if you're familiar with C&C that shouldn't be too hard to suss out.

[StealthSuitStanley]

DD,

I don't have access to the page you linked to as I don't have a subscription.

Thanks for the link, though!
_________________
later

SSS

----------------------------

"Size matters not."

-Yoda, Jedi Master

[DangerDwarf]

StealthSuitStanley wrote:
DD,

I don't have access to the page you linked to as I don't have a subscription.

Thanks for the link, though!

Actually, no subscription needed, just a log on name or even "guest" works right now I think.

It was in jest though.
Hopefully you'll find what you're looking for.

[StealthSuitStanley]

Grey Elf,

Not exactly what I'm looking for, but close. I'm really looking for something that allows the flexibility of point systems with the ease of handling of the Vancian system. I do like having fatigue effect the magic user, though. It seems fluffy.

Thanks!
_________________
later

SSS

----------------------------

"Size matters not."

-Yoda, Jedi Master

[serleran]

Sounds like you want the Advanced Spellcasting system developed by Al Krombach. Not sure if its online anymore, but I can send it to you.

[Omote]

Yeah, spell points are so much better for typical fantasy type spell casters IMO. Plus, mechanically speaking, there is so much more you can work with.

......................................Omote

FPQ
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[StealthSuitStanley]

serleran wrote:
Sounds like you want the Advanced Spellcasting system developed by Al Krombach. Not sure if its online anymore, but I can send it to you.

Please do!

Thanks!
_________________
later

SSS

----------------------------

"Size matters not."

-Yoda, Jedi Master

[serleran]

I think I need an email address from you... I don't remember everyones.

[Realmsbard]

serleran wrote:
Sounds like you want the Advanced Spellcasting system developed by Al Krombach. Not sure if its online anymore, but I can send it to you.

Could you send me a copy please?
h.mosher@bresnan.net

Thanks, Realmsbard
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[Treebore]

ITs easy to do a spell point system, and Wulfgarn pointed it out to me last night.

Just look at each spell of each level as a "slot" and they can fill it however they want with the spells they know until the slots at each level are used.

So Wizard types are a lot more versatile, but won't have the same problem as most SP systems I have seen, IE make the Wizard too deadly.

Gues you would have to call this a "spell slot system" rather than a spell point system, but it still works essentially the same, and you follow the "book work" that is already there (spells per level), rather than keeping track of totally new book work.
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[Breakdaddy]

The new Monte Cook WoD D20 Version is supposed to have a killer non vancian system that is getting rave reviews. I think it is point based, but I know little of it since I dont have the book.

[Realmsbard]

Realmsbard wrote:
Could you send me a copy please?
h.mosher@bresnan.net

Thanks, Realmsbard

Thanks Serleran

Realmsbard
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Listen to the song. For in the tale there may be truth.

[Lurker]

Quote:
Sounds like you want the Advanced Spellcasting system developed by Al Krombach. Not sure if its online anymore, but I can send it to you.

Srel Can you send it out to me also?
rouelllr@hotmail.com

Thanks

Quote:
ITs easy to do a spell point system, and Wulfgarn pointed it out to me last night.

Just look at each spell of each level as a "slot" and they can fill it however they want with the spells they know until the slots at each level are used.

So Wizard types are a lot more versatile, but won't have the same problem as most SP systems I have seen, IE make the Wizard too deadly.

Gues you would have to call this a "spell slot system" rather than a spell point system, but it still works essentially the same, and you follow the "book work" that is already there (spells per level), rather than keeping track of totally new book work.

Tree or Wulf

Would you allow the spell per level to be broken down ie a 3rd level spell can be a 2nd lvelv spell & a 1st or 3 1st lvl spells? That would make the mage more versatile but would it be tooooo deadly? But woud being able to throw 3 magic missles or 1 fire balls actually be that much more deadly......
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Forgive all spelling errors.

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[Yamo]

Lurker wrote:
Tree or Wulf

Would you allow the spell per level to be broken down ie a 3rd level spell can be a 2nd lvelv spell & a 1st or 3 1st lvl spells? That would make the mage more versatile but would it be tooooo deadly? But woud being able to throw 3 magic missles or 1 fire balls actually be that much more deadly......

Not addressed to me, but...

When I use a system like this, I allow any one higher level spell slot to be sacrificed to cast any one lower level spell.

I don't allow, for example, a third level spell to be exchanged for three first level spells. This is far too abusable with spells that "scale" to remain useful at higher levels (Magic Missile is a good example).

[Treebore]

Lurker,

If I were to do it I would allow higher level spells be used to power lower levelled spells, but I would not allow for it to be divided up. Its a one time deal and you can't "store" the excess energy (unless you have a Rod of Absorption), so when you transfer/convert the energy the excess is gone for good.

I would allow a SIEGE check to convert that excess energy into something else, such as extra range, maximum damage, or effect more targets/greater area on the spell it is being used to cast in the first place.

Like if you burn a third level spell into a magic missile I would allow a SIEGE check to use one excess level to double the range to 300 feet and another SIEGE check to convert the other excess energy into maximum damage for the missiles. Both at CL 3, for a TN of 15.

Or a SIEGE check to use all of the excess energy into triple the range, for 450 feet, that would be a CL 6 for a TN of 18.

Failure means you waste everything.

So it the risk really keeps my players cautious about attempting such things. Most times standard spell version do the job just fine. Even my 10th level spellcaster players don't maximize their fireballs that often. Despite the TN being 15 and their checks being +13 (18 INT adds +3), so only fail on a 1 or 2.

However, I expect them to maximize their fireballs practically every time once they make 11th. Still, 1's always fail, so maybe they'll be safe rather than risk sorry most of the time anyways.

As it is, I don't use the "spell slot" or "spell point" system for the same reason Vancian magic is used, they are too friggin powerful, and mages are powerful enough as it is in the Vancain system. Especially since my games, hopefully, make it to 18th level or higher.

My current home game will likely go into the low 20's. I shudder to think how god-like the spellcasters would be if I used such systems. They are nasty enough with what they can do with SIEGE checks now.

MAges throwing around maximized 60 HP fireballs is deadly enough, especially with the CL being 10. Using spell points or spell slots, or even just burning higher level sells to cast more Fireballs, would allow them to devastate the world way too much.

The only way to offset that is to adapt some kind of "cost" system, like fatigue, or losing CON, etc... Then it becomes too many dice rolls or too much record keeping, or "all the above".

So I stick with the Vancian system and allowing SIEGE checks to be made to alter the parameters of the spell. Using the 3E metamagic feats as my guidelines for such things.

In fact here is my tentative write up for my new house rules document for these SIEGE checks:

Wizards:

SIEGE checks can be used to alter spells being cast. A SIEGE check can be made to change the energy type of a spell. For example, to change a fireball to a electric ball, ice ball, etc... you make a TN 12 check + your level to beat a CL = to the level of the spell. So to change the fireball to ice would be a CL 3, so beat TN 15.

Similiar checks can be done to maximize damage, CL spell level +3

To double range, CL spell level +3

To increase number of targets effected, CL spell level +3 per additional target (example spell, Charm Person to effect two people instead of one)

Failure, in all cases, loses you the spell. Roll a natural 1 and pray for survival if it causes damage.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

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[BASH MAN]

I have a really easy way to do it. Each caster has MP-- magic points (just like hit points, only these represent magical power).

Each time you cast a spell, you spend a number of Magic points = to the spells level. A 0th level spell uses up half a point.

A caster has MP = to the classes spells/day times the spell's level. 0th level spells are considered level 1/2.

So if you have four level 0, three level 1, and one level 2 spell, you have 7MP.

Actually you can make a chart based on the class-- but remember each class gets their INT/WIS (depending) bonus x level in MP as well.

Wizard and Illusionist

Level--MP
1. 4

2. 5

3. 7

4. 9

5. 13.5

6. 18.5

7. 22.5

8. 29.5

9. 37.5

10. 47

The end result is you can cast the same number of spells per day-- but nothing prevents you from making them all fireball or all sleep or magic missile. At 10th level, you could cast 47 first level spells, 9 5th level spells, or any combo in between.
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[serleran]

Quote:
At 10th level, you could cast 47 first level spells, 9 5th level spells, or any combo in between.

Yeah... that's not heinous or anything....

If you do that, you should put the caps back on.

[Treebore]

serleran wrote:
Yeah... that's not heinous or anything....

If you do that, you should put the caps back on.

Yeah, definitely heinous. Its why I would keep the "spells per level" part even if I used a point system.

Vancian mages at 10th level are deadly enough, 9 5th level spells woul be devastating, especially if you only use 5 5th level spell slots and use 20 points casting Fireballs and such as you teleport around the battlefield.

Ugly.
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[Lurker]

Tree thanks for the info

Bash man I like the idea but .... It does sound VERY POWERFUL.

The trouble is I've only played 3 mages over my playing years. The only one I was fair with was a Drow MU/Fighter. The other 2 died very quickly & or I just didn't enjoy playing so I've very little knowledge to use if I try to do any house ruling
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"And so I am become a knight of the Kingdom of Dreams and Shadows!" - Mark Twain

Forgive all spelling errors.

Knight Errant & Humble C&C Society Contributor
C&C Society

[Matthew]

In my last full on AD&D campaign (2e), I went with a reduced Magic Point/Spontaneous Spell Casting system. Basically, there were four tiers of Spell Casters: Minor, Lesser, Major and Greater.

Minor: [(Level x 0) + Attribute Modifier]

Lesser: [(Level x 1) + Attribute Modifier]

Major: [Level x 2) + Attribute Modifier]

Greater: [(Level x 3) + Attribute Modifier]

With a few caveats, Spells cost (1 x Spell Level) to cast. The caveats were for Spells like Magic Missile, which cost 1 Magic Point per Missile. Spell Lists were restricted with even Clerics having to acquire their Spells.

Magic points were regained at a rate equal to their multiplier per day. So, a Greater Spell Caster (such as a Wizard) would regain 3 MP/Day, whilst a Major Spell Caster (such as a Cleric) would regain 2 MP/Day.

The trade off was that Spells were cast spontaneously.

Anyway, it worked well for us.
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[FCWESEL]

You might want to check out MIDNIGHT a D&D varient world/system.

Basically the way it ends up working for a main-line spellcaster is...

a) PC picks four 0-level spells which can be cast 3+Ability Mod per day, total (not each).

b) PC starts with a number of SPELL ENERGY POINTS (SEP) equal to his Key Ability Modifier, and gets an add'l SEP per level. So a fifth level spell caster, with a 16 INT (+2) has "7 SEP".

When a spell is cast, the SEP cost is the level of the spell, so a 3rd level spell costs 3 SEP. So compared to C&C, our 5th level Wizard could cast 2 3rd level spells (1 more than normal), that pretty much comes at the cost of losing his two 2nd level spells, and three of his four first level spells.

* Note that the setting has a more restrictive way of distributing spells and has a in-world reason why spellcasting is a very dangerous thing to do.