Troll Lord Games

I am an old player from way back.

I really like the approach C&C

takes in comparison to the new D&D.

Yet every time I mention switching systems it turns into a mechanics

discussion rather the 'spirit' or feel of game.

I tend to think most of my references to the gaming good old days are lost upon many younger players today.

What would you suggest I do to try and convince gamers that are used

to playing the major marketing behemoth to try out C&C for a while?

Like I said, most our discussions turn into comparing mechanics. I am having trouble convincing new gamers and old power gamers grown used to all the crunchy bits of 3.5 that heroic style is better than so called complete mechanics.

Castles & Crusades takes away the bogged down combat and returns the imagination of the players back to the the game. Like with the original rules, C&C uses players imagination over tactical mechanics.

How do you suggest I get folks to try it?

Joe wrote:
How do you suggest I get folks to try it?

Go to game shops and arrange a 'parents and kids' day. If the kids play rpg's chances are the parents have too. And if you can show the parents how it can enhance family time, you can grab people by the bundle.

This works for some High school level approaches as well as any college clubs.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Use the SIEGE engine the way I do for the "feat addicts".

Ask them what would they like better, have a restricting list of feats, or being able to attempt them at any time?

Then have a "skill list" of some type. I am currently using 10 skills plus INT bonus. The INT bonus kind of counts double, because not only does it give you skills, it also determines how many extra languages you have.

Plus, technically, C&C has skills built in without a "system". The only real rule is you can't step on someone elses "class domain". IE you can't be good at picking locks unless your a thief, you can't be real good about arcane subjects unless your a spellcaster, etc...

So ask them, "Which do you like better? A limited list of skills and feats, or a much more open system that you have to attempt anything you can think of?"

So they, with regards to feats, give up the guarrantee of doing their limited feat list, since most of those feats translate to SIEGE checks to attempt them. Any of them. Once per round, and in some cases more often. With the DC/TN being equal to the HD of the opponent against whom you are attempting it.

Here is part of my house rules document to better explain how I do it.

"CLASSES:

Fighters:

They get to use their BtH to make combat related SIEGE checks, plus their specialization bonuses when using that weapon. All other classes use just their BtH.

Fighters can also learn to master (specialize) a new weapon every 3 levels. So at 4th, 7th, 10th, and so on they can master a new weapon. They only get the +1 to hit and damage. These additional weapons never increase to +2 like your first weapon does. Unless you use one of your additional "mastery's" to do so. So if you want to be +2 with the bow, you can use your 4th and 7th level mastery to do so,

Clerics:

Clerics can do SIEGE checks similiar to Wizards.

Clerics can spontaneously convert spells to damage healing spells (IE restore HP's)

Clerics get to add their level to damage healing spells, which increases the amount healed up to the maximum. For example Cure Light cast by a 5th level Cleric rolls 1d8+5 up to a maximum of 8, not 13.

Rangers:

Get to choose an enemy at 6th level and every level thereafter. IT must be pretty specific, such as Ogres, Frost Giants, Vampires, Worshippers of the "Forest Burners", etc... This allows you to add your bonus to all SIEGE checks against them, including attack maneuvers, AND add your level to the Damage if they didn't qualify for your marauder before. CK approval, of course.

Druids:

They can go one of two paths, animal or elemental. Either path gains the ability to become a Treant at 9th level. At 6th level you choose which path you will follow. Animal can choose animal forms to chang into. Elementalists choose one fo the 4 elementals, earth, air, fire, and water. One form at 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th you get the Treant form.

Your HD and HP will be the same in your animal and elemental form. In animal/elemental form your BtH will equal your HD, and you gain the movement and special defenses of the animal/elemental form you have. Your damage and attacks are the same as the Animal/Elemental form as well.

At 12th level you can assume each chosen form 2/day. It becomes 3/day at 18th.

Paladins:

When they gain the Smite Evil ability they can use it once per day per level. OR they can choose to have "religious enemy" under the same rules as the Ranger's "enemy". Then choose a new one every two levels, like the Ranger does. They can only do one or the other, not both Smite and Religious Enemy.

Assassins and Thieves:

Your BtH progresses as lvl - 2, so your BtH is 0 at first and second level, but increases by one every level thereafter.

Assassins can make a SIEGE check to do their death attack in one round. The check is TN 12 + level/HD of the target.

Wizards:

SIEGE checks can be used to alter spells being cast. A SIEGE check can be made to change the energy type of a spell. For example, to change a fireball to a electric ball, ice ball, etc... you make a TN 12 check + your level to beat a CL = to the level of the spell. So to change the fireball to ice would be a CL 3, so beat TN 15.

Similiar checks can be done to maximize damage, CL spell level +3

To double range, CL spell level +3

To increase number of targets effected, CL spell level +3 per additional target (example spell, Charm Person to effect two people instead of one)

Failure, in all cases, loses you the spell. Roll a natural 1 and pray for survival if it causes damage."\

And:

SIEGE Checks:

As you probably guessed, I allow SIEGE checks to be used for a lot of things other than skills. They can be used by fighters to try and get extra attacks, to get an extra attack when you take an opponent down, to transfer points from your BtH to your damage roll, if you think of it, ask me if you can do it. If you have played 3E many of their feats are good ideas for SIEGE checks.

IMPORTANT: If you successfully use a SIEGE check frequently enough to perform a specific kind of action I will eventually, when I decide to do so, award it as a "signature move". This will mean that as long as your opponent is no more than 3 levels higher than you, or lower, you will not need to perform a SIEGE check to do the "signature move". You can have as many "signature moves" as I decide to award you with.

SKILLS:

Not only do you have any skills specified in the class description, and treat all such skills as if you have a Prime in the related stat for purposes using that skill, you can create a list of 10 more skills for your character to have beyond those specified for your class. You can also add one more skill per point of INT bonus.

Clerics and Druids can use their WIS bonus instead, if it is higher than their INT, for purposes of extra skills.

LANGUAGES:

If you take a race other than human you automatically get the listed bonus languages. Humans can have common and an additional language per point of INT bonus. If they want more than that they can burn one of the 10 base skill slots to do so. However, languages do not use up INT bonus points for purposes of skills. So if you have an INT of 18, you get 3 languages as well as 3 additional skill points. This is the same for non-humans. IE an 18 INT gets them 3 more languages of their choice, as well as gives them 3 more skill points."

Plus I also have a fate/luck point system that I adapted from Unearthed Arcana 3E.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

Wow, a lot of information to comment on all.

As for first answer.

I meant convincing existing players to switch to Castles & Crusades. I think I will try your game store idea. New players have an open mind whereas experienced players have preconceived notions and bias.

Good Idea!

I like the fighter wpn spc rule.

I was thinking of allowing combat feats like cleave, power attack, point blank, rapid shot, etc. at every 3 levels. 1 extra for humans @1st level, and at 3rd level and every 3 levels after that for fighters only.

Fighters go from munchkin to gimp in the conversion. Why not give them an incentive to play fighters?

Joe wrote:
Wow, a lot of information to comment on all.

As for first answer.

I meant convincing existing players to switch to Castles & Crusades. I think I will try your game store idea. New players have an open mind whereas experienced players have preconceived notions and bias.

Good Idea!

I like the fighter wpn spc rule.

I was thinking of allowing combat feats like cleave, power attack, point blank, rapid shot, etc. at every 3 levels. 1 extra for humans @1st level, and at 3rd level and every 3 levels after that for fighters only.

Fighters go from munchkin to gimp in the conversion. Why not give them an incentive to play fighters?

Believe me, with the way I do SIEGE engines, fighters rock, so their +2 BtH bonus on SIEGE checks, that become +3 when their specialized weapon hits 6th level, the fighter definitely comes across as the superior warrior if the player uses SIEGE checks well.

Make them roll SIEGE checks to pull off feat type maneuvers. Then, after they have done it successfully a couple of dozen times, award it as a character ability, meaning they no longer have to roll SIEGE checks to attempt it, they just do it, like they do in 3E.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

Makes sense.

I get the hint you are a big fan of the (drumrolls)... SIEGE engine! (cymbals)

Joe wrote:
New players have an open mind whereas experienced players have preconceived notions and bias.

*smiles* I've been playing rpg's a fair while myself, since the late 70's in fact. I've tried a bit of everything and tend to be rather... erm.. non conformist as to rules.
As Treebore mentioned. The siege check can do a lot. One can logically and reasonably extrapolate a lot of character ability from just the initial background idea of a given player concept.

With a cooperative game master, characters can have any ability that would reasonably fall into the class archetypes purview.

Fighters don't just have to hit things. There are warriors who can design siege engines, know construction, logistics, protocol as far as military negotiation goes, smithing along militant lines... all sorts. Kingdom of Heaven gives a good example as per Balian the smith.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Kingdom of Heaven?

Joe wrote:
Kingdom of Heaven?

Its a movie, I forget who starred in it, but I think one of them played a famous elf in the LotR trilogy.

Yes, I am a HUGE fan of the SIEGE engine, it lets me do anything, use anything, from many of my favorite games, such as Paladium and GURPS.

So it has turned my 22+ year old gaming library into viable resources for my gaming again. So nothing is obsolete, or good for only one system.

Plus the game, once the CK gets comfortable with using the SIEGE engine plays very fast. Especially in comparison to 3E.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

I'd download the free Quick Start Rules and the small adventure "The Rising Knight."

Print off one copy of the Quick Start Rules for each of your players and ask them to indulge you for a day. Have everyone roll up a 1st level character and run the module.

Ask them for their options after the day is over and ask them to reflect on the level of fun and fast paced style. Ask them what they really missed from 3.5.

That's basically how I switched my gang (only I used my overtime money to buy each of them the Player's Handbook - A to Z Comics gave me a price break since I bought in bulk). We added the ability to buy some of the 3.5 feats one a level using experience points. Eveyone is willing to stay with the system.

Joe wrote:
Yet every time I mention switching systems it turns into a mechanics discussion rather the 'spirit' or feel of game.

This is actually a good thing. It's what won over some old gaming friends of mine after I ran them through a scenario using C&C.

They turned around and bought at least 4 phb's and mt's using the buy one get one summer blow out special.
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Someone ever tries to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back!

Best way I can think of to get existing players to 'change systems' is to not put it in those terms. Instead, simply suggest your group gives Castles & Crusades a go. If they like it, it'll show through and they will naturally tend towards changing systems. "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't force it to drink," as they say.

Joe wrote:
Kingdom of Heaven?

Its a very cool movie about the Crusades starring Orlando Bloom. Well worth looking at for a variety of Fighter 'types', as is the 13th Warrior.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

I have it on DVD (given to me by a friend) and I haven't even watched it yet.
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NOTE TO ALL: If you don't like something I've said, PM me and tell me to my face, then give me a chance to set things right before you call a moderator.
My small homage to E.G.G.

I'll give an example of how cool the SIEGE can be in attempting "feat-like" attempts:

The 1st level wizard in my game tonight was with the group in Kruggle's lair in A1 (big Ogre in his lair for those who haven't done or read A1). He asked "can I try and run through his legs and get to the other side?" I said sure, just roll a dex check. Dex wasn't a prime but is +2 for him, but the Ogre is big and slow and so I set a rough cr around 2 for it since he wasn't attempting something too crazy, just a cool movement. I adjust between the base 18/12 and a 15/10 depending on encounters in my games for attribute checks (a house rule for myself in the game) and so I used 15 + cr 2, 17 to succeed. He rolled a 16, added +2 for dex to get 18 and so slid right between the legs of the Ogre, who smashed his fist down just missing the wizard, who made it to the other side. The Ogre cried out "Damnnn.... big goblinzz izz slippery!!" (All creatures being just some variation on Goblins to Kruggle's mind).

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John "Sir Seskis" Wright

Ilshara: Lands of Exile:
http://johnwright281.tripod.com/

High Squire of the C&C Society
www.cncsociety.org

simply put, you have to get them to play the game for 1 night.

there is no way, no how, no where, no when they can ever even come close to claiming that playing C&C in 1 night and playing D&D in 1 night you get anywhere close to the same amount of adventuring in D&D. My conservative estimates are somewhere around 50-60% more gaming in C&C in 1 night as with D&D.

once they realize that you can actually get through 3 rooms and 1 fight in a night of role playing, they will be converted.

Trust me

Cheers,

J.

It really isn't easy to convince hardcore D&D3.5 players to give C&C a go.

Fortunately, once you get them into a game (and say yes a good deal to what they want to try) and can make the game last at least three or four sessions... They may fall desperately in love with it.

That happened at my game table. By the 5th Session, the entire group owned copies of the PHB and most also bought the M&T Book.

I really don't know how to get anyone to give it a go through anything other than just asking. If you are already in a gaming group, this shouldn't be very difficult, just tell the group that you really want to run a short campaign using these rules and you would like them to really give it a try, without dumping on mechanics.

BTW, in the first three or four sessions of my current year+ going campaign, the hardcore D&D3.5 guys were sometimes ragging on the system and sometimes saying how they missed 3.5. Nowadays, they are actually ragging on 3.5 and how "silly" that game now appears to be for them. I'm just saying that such a "culture change" is possible.
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Earned the following:

50 Useless Trivia Points from Serleran

Nelzie wrote:
BTW, in the first three or four sessions of my current year+ going campaign, the hardcore D&D3.5 guys were sometimes ragging on the system and sometimes saying how they missed 3.5. Nowadays, they are actually ragging on 3.5 and how "silly" that game now appears to be for them. I'm just saying that such a "culture change" is possible.

This is happening already with the 'old' gamer group that is switching their campaign from 1e D&D to C&C.

The armor class/to hit is a more natural mechanic and requires no charts.

The SIEGE engine replaces skills, feats and saving throw charts.
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Someone ever tries to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back!

imweasel wrote:
This is happening already with the 'old' gamer group that is switching their campaign from 1e D&D to C&C.

The armor class/to hit is a more natural mechanic and requires no charts.

The SIEGE engine replaces skills, feats and saving throw charts.

I have an "Elven Archer" class in my game world and I have worked out a way for him to get two attacks with a couple of penalties associated. He has to pass a Dex SIEGE engine check to draw the two arrows, whether he succeeds or fails, he suffers a -2 penalty to his two hit rolls, if he rolls a critical failure, he only draws one single arrow, gets to fire that at a -2 to hit and then has to switch to a new quiver, because his fast movements caused all of his arrows to fly out of his quiver. (That really sucked for him when he did this on Horseback and lost the ability to make attacks, since he was down to one quiver.)

This ability, along with some magical imbuements on his bow has allowed this character to do 33 points of damage in one single round. Which is pretty damned impressive, to say the least.
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Earned the following:

50 Useless Trivia Points from Serleran

seskis281 wrote:
I'll give an example of how cool the SIEGE can be in attempting "feat-like" attempts:

The 1st level wizard in my game tonight was with the group in Kruggle's lair in A1 (big Ogre in his lair for those who haven't done or read A1). He asked "can I try and run through his legs and get to the other side?" I said sure, just roll a dex check. Dex wasn't a prime but is +2 for him, but the Ogre is big and slow and so I set a rough cr around 2 for it since he wasn't attempting something too crazy, just a cool movement. I adjust between the base 18/12 and a 15/10 depending on encounters in my games for attribute checks (a house rule for myself in the game) and so I used 15 + cr 2, 17 to succeed. He rolled a 16, added +2 for dex to get 18 and so slid right between the legs of the Ogre, who smashed his fist down just missing the wizard, who made it to the other side. The Ogre cried out "Damnnn.... big goblinzz izz slippery!!" (All creatures being just some variation on Goblins to Kruggle's mind).

Excellent!
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Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

Rhuvein wrote:
Excellent!

Double excellent!
Get rid of the 15/10 house rule of Seskis and you havea perfect example of how C&C's Seige Engine is designed to work right out of the book.
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> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

Happy sigh. Reading about revelations like this is one of the things that convinces me that Messers Chenault, Golden and Doyel have definitely hit a gold vein. Treebore, that bit you mentioned on the first page about how Feats actually manifest themselves in gameplay is almost word for word what my brother (Jungger) has stated: Every time you pick up a Feat, that's one less thing you cannot do in the 3.0-3.5 (and probably 4.0) world.

seskis281's story also produced a smile, because my half-orc ranger in Jungger's game accomplished almost exactly the same thing in a very similar circumstance. I was wondering about the possibility of my boy doing some sort of jumping-cannonball maneuver to get over a couple of intervening lowlifes so that he could meaningfully assault the main bad guy; Jungger considered a couple of variables - type of armor worn (elven chain), intervening distance, my boy's Dex bonus (+2) - and off we went.

And to those who are writing of the Religious Conversions that some of the Fallen are experiencing...great to hear. Makes me very hopeful that Troll Lords and their line of works will be around long after certain other outlets have been pronounced "not financially viable" (to steal a line from Falling Down) and the corporate masters have closed the doors.