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I am burnt out on running 3rd, and I am converting 
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Mist Elf

Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2006 7:00 am
Posts: 22
Post I am burnt out on running 3rd, and I am converting
Hi,

My name is James and I live Texas (near Austin, go Horns!).

Now that the introduction is out of the way I can try and make a point.

I am seriously tired of 3rd edition; I started playing it August 2000, just after Gencon when the PHB came out. We started our first 3rd edition campaign in September of the same year. I have played/DM in low and high level campaigns for the last 6 years, but I am burnt out.

Before 3rd edition, we played a slightly modified 1e (mostly base 1e with UA and 2e skills) almost exclusively. I will admit, that when we switched to 3rd, I was burnt on 1e because I was tired some of the wonky rules (things like racial level limits). I was so excited to switch to the 3rd skill system, and to have more character customization.

Now though, I just cant take it. I know the PHB backwards and forwards and combat still crawls for us. Dont get me started on the hours of prep work it takes to DM!

It seems that when I DM, that I have to spend so much time getting the rules right, that its hard to create a story. Running combats at 14th level and beyond is a freaking joke, and lower level fights are no picnic. I (and the other DM) end up hand waving so much behind the screen to keep things moving that we have begun to ask each other, whats the point?

I have been reading posts on here and Dragonsfoot for about 2 weeks (and my old haunt Enworld) to try and get a better idea about C&C. I am pretty much done as a DM when it comes to 3rd edition, and am going to start a C&C game in about a month.

There are a few things about C&C that I am concerned about:
I wish the class charts went to 20th with special abilities, and yes I have grabbed the excellent house rules with abilities to 20th.
I am not sure what to make of Primes.I dont know how well that will go over with my players.
I feel the weapons are a little to generic, and might just pull the 3rd edition weapons over to make it easy.
My group has a large investment in the D&D mini line, so I am not real sure how well it will go over with C&C. Does anyone else use miniatures and a battlemat (we will most likely stay with a grid mat) with C&C?

Things that I think kick much tail:
Monster stat blocks are so nice, brings back pleasant memoriesreading and running these guys will be so easy.
The fact that combats looks to be fast is a huge upside.
I love how easy it is to add stuff to the game


Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:53 pm
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Mogrl

Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:00 am
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Quote:
Quote:
* I wish the class charts went to 20th with special abilities, and yes I have grabbed the excellent house rules with abilities to 20th.

* I am not sure what to make of Primes.I dont know how well that will go over with my players.

* I feel the weapons are a little to generic, and might just pull the 3rd edition weapons over to make it easy.

* My group has a large investment in the D&D mini line, so I am not real sure how well it will go over with C&C. Does anyone else use miniatures and a battlemat (we will most likely stay with a grid mat) with C&C?



1) I believe the CKG will cover the "over 12th level" thing. By the way, 12th level is not the "cap," like many seem to believe... it is just the last level listed in the PHB.

2) Primes function in numerous ways. They help customize characters. They determine how easily class abilities will work. They all matter for saves. Basically... its like this: do I want my character to be about brute force? Strength Prime. Do I want a lithe and flexible one? Dexterity Prime. Granted, these are not the only definitions, but they help.

3) Ok. Do that. Won't change anything except making some more rolls in combat some times.

4) The rule system should be independent of this, and C&C is. All miniatures are, or should be, are visual representations of locations in combat... they should not be tactical pieces of boardgame play. So... yes, you can use minis with C&C. They're not as integral to play as 3.X (ie, the combat subsystem does not rely on them) but that's a plus in my opinion.

Oh, and on your "things that kick tail" list... add: length of time it takes the CK to prepare an adventure.


Wed Jul 05, 2006 1:24 pm
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Mist Elf

Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2006 7:00 am
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[quote="serleran"]
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Thanks for the reply!

4) The rule system should be independent of this, and C&C is. All miniatures are, or should be, are visual representations of locations in combat... they should not be tactical pieces of boardgame play. So... yes, you can use minis with C&C. They're not as integral to play as 3.X (ie, the combat subsystem does not rely on them) but that's a plus in my opinion.

Oh, and on your "things that kick tail" list... add: length of time it takes the CK to prepare an adventure.



Yes, preparing adventures and the speed of combat are the largest factors for the switch.

We used minis in 1e, and your right, we really only used them to show where everyone was (and maybe to show the location of spell effects, its been many moons). Even with minis back then, things just seemed to go so much faster. Maybe I am looking through nostalgia colored glasses, but I don't think so.


Wed Jul 05, 2006 1:43 pm
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Welcome to the Crusade James!

With a little work, your concerns about C&C will melt away. It's just THAT adaptable.

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Wed Jul 05, 2006 1:55 pm
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Red Cap

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Post Re: I am burnt out on running 3rd, and I am converting
James, your story is much like my own. I've played, DM'd, and even designed rules for 3rd edition since 2001, and I've recently made the switch myself. I've known about C&C for a while, but the deciding factor was when a friend of mine saw the C&C PHB and said he liked it a lot better.

I think one of my main problems with 3e was that two of my players don't know 3e, so I had to help them every time they leveled up. That took a LOT of time.

Quote:
james_austintx wrote:
I wish the class charts went to 20th with special abilities, and yes I have grabbed the excellent house rules with abilities to 20th.



I feel the same way. I've started to rewrite the classes to go from level 1 to level 20 with a few abilities thrown in, some of which are 3e feats added in as class abilities (and simplified!). For example, I have a swashbuckler class with Improved Initiative added in, save with a +2 bonus to Init. So it isn't straight C&C, but it seems to work well thus far.

I also don't care for the divergent ability score progressions and the addition of a straight number for HP after a certain level.

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I am not sure what to make of Primes.I dont know how well that will go over with my players.



Another way of looking at Primes is that they are, in essence, a +6 bonus to everything dealing with that stat. I can see why they were designed like that, but I don't use them, personally. Of course, I have also ported in a simplified/modified version of the 3e skills, so a +6 to every skill based on 2 - 3 stats would be a bit extreme.

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I feel the weapons are a little to generic, and might just pull the 3rd edition weapons over to make it easy.



To date, my favorite weapons book is the AD&D 2e Arms and Equipment Guide (the 3e version pales in comparison, IMO). There's tons of weapons and armor in there with a bunch of modifications.

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My group has a large investment in the D&D mini line, so I am not real sure how well it will go over with C&C. Does anyone else use miniatures and a battlemat (we will most likely stay with a grid mat) with C&C?



I don't use miniatures on a regular basis. I really don't like how 3e relies on miniatures so much.

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Monster stat blocks are so nice, brings back pleasant memoriesreading and running these guys will be so easy.



MUCH, much better, IMO. I've even taken a quick look back at my old 2e Monstrous Manual recently.
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The fact that combats looks to be fast is a huge upside.



Amen to that!

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I love how easy it is to add stuff to the game.



I think that's one of C&C's biggest selling points. You can use non-weapon proficiencies from AD&D, skills and feats from 3e, or some other system. Any number of things can be added in with ease.

Welcome to the Crusade!


Wed Jul 05, 2006 2:23 pm
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Maukling
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Primes and the seige engine together can be thought of all the feat and skills methodology, simply abstracted into one system. Simply without the need to write a whole mass of numbers down. Its more a matter of role play than trying to keep track of a variety of bits and bobs.
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Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:25 pm
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Ulthal

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Primes and seige engine in play are elegant. (Winer 3.0 player)"I want to cast this spell without components!"(/Winer 3.0 player) Ok, I made a decision right their. He is 14th level caster and it is third level spell. "Roll a prime check at 15 (12 base +3 lvel of spell)." Easy. Other instances have come up, and the seige engine handles quickly and to the players and DM's liking. Players basically want a chance to do anything they come up with. DM's want a fast way to resolve. It meets both requirements easy.
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Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:52 pm
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Red Cap

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James,

I am a recent 3E to C&C convert as well. For much the same reasons as you, I tired quickly of 3E - as a DM. I still play in 3E as well as in 2E but that is because the DMs prefer those systems.

I also thought that my players would be incredibly against C&C but with the exception of one EX-Player, it went over really well. I even ran a C&C game using the 3E Eberron setting at a local store to some intitial negative attitudes. It went over EXTREMELY well. The combat was fast and furious.

As mentioned above by Dragonhelm, I prefer to think of Primes as a +6 to any Skill type check. It simplifies things and the players know that if I ask for a DEX check, then they will add 6 to their role if it's a Prime. The DC checks are easily converted by getting a CL (Challenge Level) of DC-15. I then add the CL to 18 and I'm all set. This works for me perfectly.

I use Minins extensively with my games. I've got over 1000 of the WOTC minis so it's an integral part of my game and I find no problems using them. I eliminate any AOP, movement can be horizontal, vertiacl or diaganol. I try to stick to the 6 squares of movement but don't get hyper if the player moves it one more square. It is no longer focussed on Minis, but the minis and the pretty maps do help.

As for adding in more rules, I do it for my Eberron campaign and created my own house rules document. It is very easy to do this with C&C and I find I enjoy customizing my game my way.

Enjoy!


Wed Jul 05, 2006 4:04 pm
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Red Cap
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James you sound just like me about a year and a half ago. I burned out bad as a DM. Castles and Crusades was a God-send. Any reservations you may have will go away once you immerse yourself in C&C.

It is a gamemaster's dream come true: low prep time and ease of play time.

I house-ruled a bunch of 3.x rules that I felt made my players more comfortable, but ultimately, the system holds up under almost any house rule.

My players are a finnicky bunch. We have been playing D&D for roughly 24 years, and they have no problem playing C&C because it plays so much like the game we all love so much. I have a feeling your players will love it.

If you want to check out my house rules, here is my site.
http://magehammer.googlepages.com/home

Welcome to the Crusade and have fun!!!!


Wed Jul 05, 2006 4:07 pm
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Ulthal

Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 7:00 am
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Post Re: I am burnt out on running 3rd, and I am converting
Quote:
james_austintx wrote:
[*]I am not sure what to make of Primes.I dont know how well that will go over with my players.



My players weren't so sure about that, either. They felt like they were limited because they didn't have skills and such written down on their sheets. However, that's a false impression, and really the opposite is true: lists of skills are more limiting. I'd encourage you to try out the SIEGE engine and Primes for resovling skills (and feat-like actions) before importing a skill system.

Basically, any time a 3E PC would use a skill, a C&C PC can use an ability check. If it's a task that is central to the PC's class and background, then you can choose to give the PCs level as modifier. If it's not something central to the PC's class and background, roll the check without a level modifier.

For example, say the PC is a noble knight-type character. His character concept would include things like heraldry, local politics, diplomacy, leadership, rules of chivalry and courtly behavior, et cetera. With the SIEGE engine, the PC has all the "skills" which make sense for his PC, without the need to purchase and list them on the character sheet. That's what I mean about it being less limiting. In 3E, if the PC didn't have enough skill points, he might be unable to do something that fits his character conception.

Pulling in a skill system is possible, of course; one of the big benefits of C&C is the ease with which it can be tweaked and modified with stuff from other systems. But I'd suggest trying out the SIEGE engine, first, and giving it a chance. My players weren't so sure, in the beginning (they kept looking at their sheets to see "what they could do"), but now they love it.

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[*]I feel the weapons are a little to generic, and might just pull the 3rd edition weapons over to make it easy.



I don't see any big problems with that.

Quote:
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[*]My group has a large investment in the D&D mini line, so I am not real sure how well it will go over with C&C. Does anyone else use miniatures and a battlemat (we will most likely stay with a grid mat) with C&C?



I've used miniatures and a battlemat for years -- long before 3E. It works fine with C&C, too. That said, I don't use a "it's your turn to move and attack, then it's his turn to move and attack" approach. Instead, I get intentions stated up front, then resolve combat. It's a little more fluid, and a little less like a board game. Robert Fisher mentions this approach on his "Classic D&D" site. (Good reading for C&C players, too.)


Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:16 pm
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Maukling
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Post Re: I am burnt out on running 3rd, and I am converting
Quote:
Quote:
My group has a large investment in the D&D mini line, so I am not real sure how well it will go over with C&C. Does anyone else use miniatures and a battlemat (we will most likely stay with a grid mat) with C&C?



As folks mentioned, placeholders certainly. But from the artistic perspective Ill throw the one out I like.

They are fun to paint and colllect. Its a nice break from various other projects and I for one enjoy the skill that goes into creating the various sculptures.
It may not be 'game' related. But tis hobby related and is just as interesting, to me, as gathering a group of oddballs and chasing down imaginary critters.
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Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:32 pm
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Red Cap
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On the subject of miniatures, we have been using minis pretty much from the start of our gaming careers.

I tried running a game of C&C without minis, and it worked, but my players felt that they would be more comfortable with. So, we use them as a guide not as veritable "chess" pieces. I use Skeleton Key Games' e-adventure tiles and Fat Dragon Games EZ tiles. They work great for me.


Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:35 pm
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Hlobane Orc

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Post Re: I am burnt out on running 3rd, and I am converting
Quote:
james_austintx wrote:
Hi,

My name is James and I live Texas (near Austin, go Horns!).

Now that the introduction is out of the way I can try and make a point.

I am seriously tired of 3rd edition; I started playing it August 2000, just after Gencon when the PHB came out. We started our first 3rd edition campaign in September of the same year. I have played/DM in low and high level campaigns for the last 6 years, but I am burnt out.

Before 3rd edition, we played a slightly modified 1e (mostly base 1e with UA and 2e skills) almost exclusively. I will admit, that when we switched to 3rd, I was burnt on 1e because I was tired some of the wonky rules (things like racial level limits). I was so excited to switch to the 3rd skill system, and to have more character customization.

Now though, I just cant take it. I know the PHB backwards and forwards and combat still crawls for us. Dont get me started on the hours of prep work it takes to DM!

It seems that when I DM, that I have to spend so much time getting the rules right, that its hard to create a story. Running combats at 14th level and beyond is a freaking joke, and lower level fights are no picnic. I (and the other DM) end up hand waving so much behind the screen to keep things moving that we have begun to ask each other, whats the point?

I have been reading posts on here and Dragonsfoot for about 2 weeks (and my old haunt Enworld) to try and get a better idea about C&C. I am pretty much done as a DM when it comes to 3rd edition, and am going to start a C&C game in about a month.

There are a few things about C&C that I am concerned about:
I wish the class charts went to 20th with special abilities, and yes I have grabbed the excellent house rules with abilities to 20th.
I am not sure what to make of Primes.I dont know how well that will go over with my players.
I feel the weapons are a little to generic, and might just pull the 3rd edition weapons over to make it easy.
My group has a large investment in the D&D mini line, so I am not real sure how well it will go over with C&C. Does anyone else use miniatures and a battlemat (we will most likely stay with a grid mat) with C&C?

Things that I think kick much tail:
Monster stat blocks are so nice, brings back pleasant memoriesreading and running these guys will be so easy.
The fact that combats looks to be fast is a huge upside.
I love how easy it is to add stuff to the game



My group and I love to play between 4 to 8 levels, so to us C&C suited our needs just fine there.

Primes are great, in fact the siege system is the thing we love the most about C&C.

The thing with weapons if I remember right, some of them are better than others but have the same cost in gold? (My only wish would be to add an initiative modifier for them.)

I always use minis and I have huge 3D settings to go along with them. So they a part of our C&C play really. It's far easier to keep track of battles mainly if there are over a dozen+ opponents. :p

I gave away my entire D&D collection myself and went C&C all the way!
ZW.


Wed Jul 05, 2006 8:24 pm
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Red Cap

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welcome to the crusade

ken
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Wed Jul 05, 2006 8:27 pm
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Mogrl

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I have a feeling you may have heard me sing the praises of C&C elsewhere, but here is a copy of some posts I made over at Necromancer to try and convince people to try C&C. I think it will also help explain how I handle some of your questions. Wierd gaps in ths are probably due to just editing out stuff that is not relevent.

C&C starts simple but does not have to stay that way if you don't want it to.

Like feats and skills are not in the "official" rules of C&C. However the rules imply you can have them. The way I implemented them was to say that any feat that is a combat maneuver, such as cleave or whirlwind, can be attempted with a roll, based on whatever stat I think is most appropriate for the conditions under which they are being attempted. Usually DEX or STR. The other feats I don't allow, except for spell mastery, I allow that as written, and the player just has to make a successful INT check for each spell they want mastered.

I added a defined skills system to my C&C game by simply saying that the skills listed in the 3E PH for the class that most closely relates to your C&C class are skills your character can have. The only thing I had to "add" was a limitation on knowledge skills, equal to your INT bonus. Just recently I realized I needed to do the same thing for crafting skills.

My players only need to keep track of what knowledge and craft skills they have. Otherwise it is covered by the 3E list. Plus the full list is available to them. Oh, I also made Spot and Listen available to all classes except the Wizard and illusionist. They have spells to make them super human in those areas.

So what I am trying to illustrate is that C&C starts relatively very simple, but the SIEGE system is versatile enough to let you add whatever you miss or want. So the game will never become more complex than you, the DM, wants it to.

Future books are going to cover adding stuff on and suggestions on how to do it, but the books will strongly stress the fact that these rules additions are solely added if the CK wants to add them. Plus these books, as I understand it, are aimed at the CK, not the players. Which further illustrates that this stuff is the CK's stuff to use or ignore, not the players.

So the whole attitude and flavor of C&C is very relaxed and simplistic and "do whatever you want".

I have been CKing for about 8 months now. I have no motivation whatsoever to go back to DMing 3E. I play it, with my wife and kids taking turns DMing, but I have no desire to DM again. My wife and kids are also getting aggravated with DMing 3E and often say, "lets handle this the way we do in C&C!"

What I find funniest is they keep insisting on sticking with 3E because of all the cool feat builds. Forgetting the obvious, that all these feat builds are available to their characters in the C&C game, with no "builds" whatsoever. They are available for them to attempt from level 1 on.

I have pointed this out to them again and again as they use feat rolls in the C&C game, but for some reason the "logic" hasn't stuck. So I think I am going to have to point out every time the "cool new feat" is gained and bragged about I'll have to point out that the "so and so C&C character has been able to attempt this since level 1."

The only cool feats that cannot be added, simply, are the metamagic feats of the wizards and clerics. My brain has been working on that and I think my flash of inspiration will arrive soon. Now C&C already gives the item creation feats at certain levels, just like in 2E. It is the other feats, like energy substitution, maximize, sudden maximize, energy admixture (my personal favorite), Lord of the Uttercold, etc... that are hard to implement. In fact, I am thinking it will be best if I add them on at specific high levels as straight class abilities.

The other idea bouncing around is to handle them just like the other feats but have them only be able to be attempted after specific levels. I like this idea better, because it is simplest, but I am not sure about power abuse.

Anyways, I have rattled on enough. I hope you have actually read all this and been convinced to give C&C a look. Or another look if you have already looked at it.

The C&C mechanic is d20, just like 3E. where it deviates is the SIEGE Engine. All your saves and skill type actions are resolved with the SIEGE engine. What does this mean? Well, hopefully I can explain it as simply and clearly as the system itself is.

First off, during character creaton the players designate 2 or 3 stats as Primes. Humans get 3, every other race gets 2. What does a Prime stat do for you? Several things. Essentially it gives you a +6 modifier to any saving throw or action taken that is based off of that stat. Plus, if the stat is high enough to give an attribute bonus, you add that to.

The other advantage to the Prime system is that even if you roll a lousy stat, being Prime will still make the character superior in everything related to that stat. At least compared to any other character that doesn't have ti as a Prime as well.

Another thing to remember about C&C, every stat has some type of save based on it. For example STR has paralyzaton and constriction saves based off of it.

Here is another key point ot understanding the SIEGE engine. There are two levels of saves, or DC's in C&C. 12 if the save/roll is based off of a Prime stat, 18 if it is not.

Modifiers: Positive modifiers (being in the PC's favor) come from class level, stat bonuses, and magic items or spells. Plus if it is Prime or not.

Negative modifiers come from the CK/DM, and their determination of difficulty. Usually, if it is a creature, you use their Hit Dice/Level. Plus any exceptional stat modifier they may have.

For example:

Wizard and fighter are going at it. The fighter is 40 feet away. The fighter is screwed if he can't get to the wizard and do a hand to hand pounding on him. So while moving towards the wizard he will shoot his bow in hopes of messing with the wizards spellcasting.

The wizard, being the smart dude that he is, realizes that a fighter is probably weak willed and casts a charm person on him. The fighter shoots an arrow at the mage and hits him for 4 points. The wizard, being smart, has his CON as a Prime, so his concentration check to keep his spell starts at a 12. His level is 5th and he even has a +1 stat bonus to his Con, for a total of +6. So his base TN is 6 (TN 12 -6=6). Now the fighter only gets to modify this Con check by the damage done, which was 4, so this adjusts the TN back up to 10. A 50/50 chance the wizard loses or keeps his spell and gets it off. He rolls an 11 and keeps the spell and casts it.

Now the fighter needs to make a save. The wizard is wrong, he is strong in will, he has alwaqys been a leader and his force of will and personality ahs led his companions through many ordeals. His Charisma is a Prime stat, and spells that attempt to control a persons will are countered by charisma.

So the fighters base TN is also 12 for his save versus charm. He is a 6th level fighter, but his charisma stat is low enough to give him a -1 stat modifier so his base TN is a 7. The level of the Wizard is 5, and he is exceptionally intelligent and has a stat bonus of two, so he increases the fighters TN up to 14.

The fighter rolls a 6 and becomes charmed. Suddenly he no longer desires to kill the wizard. He wonders why he wanted to in the first place.

End Example.

As you can see (assuming I have managed to be sensible) their are a lot of similarities to how you do things in 3E. The biggest differences are that every stat has saves attached to it, so there are no throw away stats, and that there are two TN's, determined by whether the related stat is designated a Prime or not.

Combat goes much like 3E, you have positive AC's and a Base to Hit (BtH), just like 3E. C&C is a d20 OGL product after all. Perhaps the best thing about C&C is that there are no AoO's.

In a lot of ways C&C is lower powered than 3E, then again spells are very dangerous, especially when it is versus a non-prime based save. That TN for the fighter would have been a 20 if his CHA hadn't been Prime.

There are some sites you should check out. The main one being cncplayer.net. There are a lot of house rules there, and if Grey Elfs site is linked off of there (I'm pretty sure it is) he has downloads available to explain converting monsters from 3E to C&C and I believe the older versions of D&D as well.

If after that, you are still interested check out the troll forums linked through their new board.

The modules would be cheaper at your LGS, but I strongly recommend them. Combined with the C&C rules these modules remind me so much of playing and DMing back in the OD&D/1E days it isn't funny.

Anyways, give C&C a try. I don't play bad game systems, and I sure as heck wouldn't recommend one. The only question is will C&C fit your style and desires for a game. If simplicity with as much complexity as you want to add, and having the story/adventure being the primary focus, sounds like what you are looking for then you can make it happen with the C&C rules set.

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Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:19 pm
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Quote:
Jynx wrote:
I even ran a C&C game using the 3E Eberron setting at a local store to some intitial negative attitudes. It went over EXTREMELY well. The combat was fast and furious.!



How did you do the Shifter race and the Artificer class?

Quote:
Quote:
James said: ... and yes I have grabbed the excellent house rules with abilities to 20th. "



Link, please?


Wed Jul 05, 2006 10:47 pm
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Lore Drake

Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 7:00 am
Posts: 1523
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Welcome to the Crusade! In case you didn't notice, your story is very common, mine was much the same.

Importing the weapons from 3E is a snap. (I assume this is to keep the threat range/crit modifiers) My players liked that in 3E, so I may put it back in my next campaign. I intend only to multiply the weapons base damage, then add modifiers for magic, strength etc.

I also like the max dex bonus for armor so that stayed as well.
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Wed Jul 05, 2006 11:13 pm
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Red Cap

Joined: Sat May 13, 2006 7:00 am
Posts: 324
Post 
Quote:
anglefish wrote:
How did you do the Shifter race and the Artificer class?



Link, please?



I didn't convert everything - only what I needed. The Artificer class is something I am aiming to do in the near future, but I haven't had a need for it yet. The one time I used the class in 3E, I hated it, so we'll see.... . In any case, it shouldn't be too difficult once you start looking at the various possibilities.

As for the Shifter race, it was simple. I just allowed the player to choose what his character can shift into and applied the appropriate bonus. Ex: Longtooth Shifters gain +2 on STR and grow fangs with an additional attack of 1D6 every 4 levels. It's for the most part word for word conversions from Eberron to ny C&C. I don't allow feats as in 3E, so if the player wants additional Shifting capabilties, I do what I would do for any race or class. I allow feats to be added on after they've been C&C-ized by me, at a hefty 10% XP penalty but only once every 4 levels. It works for me just fine.

I think of C&C as a base to build on.


Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:22 am
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Mist Elf

Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:00 am
Posts: 20
Post Same thing with me
I went to the GenCon that had the release of 3rd edition, and since then only played mainly that for the last 5+ years. At first it was fun, but as the years went by I really started to burn out on it. I plan on running one more game because I promised one of my friends that he will have the chance to play a class from magic of incarnum. I plan on not ever DMing it again after that.

To me with 3rd edition I do not have the same feeling while playing it that I had with 1st and 2nd edition. Everything seems to be bogged down and have to constantly break game to check on rules/spells and other such things. Just the other night we had one combat in 4-5 hours of playing. Now that wouldn't be that bad if we had the combat, and then spent the rest of the time socializing with npcs and whatnot. However, the combat took 3 1/2 hours to complete.

What I really would like to do, is start collecting the Ravenloft 2nd Edition products and convert those to C&C. I really liked the setting, and would love to run some campaigns again in it.


Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:38 am
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Mogrl

Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Posts: 20660
Location: Arizona and St Louis
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Between you and Serleran, who is running a Ravenloft game, I'm getting a bigger itch to run one again. The fact that you reminded me that the 2E modules with the 3E version history would make it very easy for me to do it!

You guys are horrible! I have at least 10 more levels of my current campaign to finish first! Stop tempting me!

Would maybe working on it appease the temptation?

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Fri Jul 07, 2006 6:30 am
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Lore Drake

Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 7:00 am
Posts: 1102
Post Re: Same thing with me
Quote:
yipwyg2 wrote:
I went to the GenCon that had the release of 3rd edition, and since then only played mainly that for the last 5+ years. At first it was fun, but as the years went by I really started to burn out on it. I plan on running one more game because I promised one of my friends that he will have the chance to play a class from magic of incarnum. I plan on not ever DMing it again after that.

To me with 3rd edition I do not have the same feeling while playing it that I had with 1st and 2nd edition. Everything seems to be bogged down and have to constantly break game to check on rules/spells and other such things. Just the other night we had one combat in 4-5 hours of playing. Now that wouldn't be that bad if we had the combat, and then spent the rest of the time socializing with npcs and whatnot. However, the combat took 3 1/2 hours to complete.

What I really would like to do, is start collecting the Ravenloft 2nd Edition products and convert those to C&C. I really liked the setting, and would love to run some campaigns again in it.



There is not very much to convert to run Ravenloft in C&C (at least the 2nd edition version). The only thing to adapt are the "horror" and "fear" saves, which can be handled in C&C by a charisma saving throw. Creatures and the like can be directly used.

Cheers,

Antonio


Fri Jul 07, 2006 11:53 am
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Mist Elf

Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2006 7:00 am
Posts: 22
Post 
Well, looks like some of the players in my group are unhappy with 3rd edition as well, and the others don't care, they just want to play.


Fri Jul 07, 2006 12:22 pm
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Mogrl

Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:00 am
Posts: 13812
Post 
Actually, if one uses Domains of Dread as a resource for class changes and each individual Domain rules, especially such a thing as Necropolis (where players can be Undead characters), there is quite a bit to convert. Of course, my preference is to conversion of the Van Richten Monster Hunter Compendiums.
Anyway... umm, Ravenloft rules, especially in the hands of someone who doesn't see it as a "b-rate horror genre" setting, since its not that. Ummm, ok. *stops.*


Fri Jul 07, 2006 3:16 pm
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Red Cap

Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 7:00 am
Posts: 233
Post 
Quote:
james_austintx wrote:
Well, looks like some of the players in my group are unhappy with 3rd edition as well, and the others don't care, they just want to play.



You are quite fortunate. Around here, the mere mention of playing anything non-3.5 D&D is usually followed up with a verbal beating and sometimes a lynching.

Thank goodness for close friends...


Fri Jul 07, 2006 3:20 pm
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Mist Elf

Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2006 7:00 am
Posts: 22
Post 
Quote:
anglefish wrote:
How did you do the Shifter race and the Artificer class?



Link, please?



How about an email? I am not sure what web page I got them from.


Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:21 pm
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Mist Elf

Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2006 7:00 am
Posts: 22
Post 
Quote:
meepo wrote:
You are quite fortunate. Around here, the mere mention of playing anything non-3.5 D&D is usually followed up with a verbal beating and sometimes a lynching.

Thank goodness for close friends...



They all have fond memories of 1e so that helps. I do have one player that is a wargamer like myself, so he might not like it, but that is what boardgame night is for.


Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:31 pm
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Hlobane Orc

Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:00 am
Posts: 174
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Allow me to introduce myself: I'm a D&D player of some *ahem* 26? years standing. I've seen (and played) them all. They all had their faults but they were all loved in equal measure. It seems like they grew up with me. I've DM'd lots of classics, Tomb of Horrors, Temple of Elemental Evil, White Plume Mountain, Ravenloft (dozens). I jumped on the d20 bandwagon along with (most) everyone else and enjoyed that too.

Then life happened. A wife, a house, kids, job. Now, I wouldn't trade any of that for anything but one thing I no longer have is time. I still DM but 3e was draining it all away - and that was just the preparation.

I still play and I am currently DMing a 3e version of Temple of Elemental Evil. Imagine how much 3e work that requires! All this is online, we use Skype for comms and kLoOge for our tabletop.

I can't quite remember how I stumbled across Castles & Crusades but I was hooked. A rules-light D&D!? Give it to me! Give it to me now! Alas, I am still awaiting my books to be shipped, perhaps next week, perhaps the week after.

My players are all okay with me changing the ruleset halfway through the module (let's face it, apart from tweaking their characters, they aren't going to notice - apart from the fact that I'll be more ready and they'll get more roleplaying done).

I wish I'd seen C&C sooner. I realise C&C is really for a niche market, but we ought to shout it from the rooftops. We don't want munchkin powergamers here! Roll initiative... (d10 mind).


Thu Jul 13, 2006 8:24 am
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Red Cap

Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 7:00 am
Posts: 233
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Well said!


Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:37 am
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Ulthal

Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Posts: 664
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The difference between 'niche' and 'mainstream' is word of mouth. Even though I'm not currently playing, I'm extremely aggressive about promoting C&C to everyone I can. I'd like to see clunky, rules-heavy games that put true roleplaying in the backseat become the 'niche' market.

Ink
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Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:28 pm
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Battle Stag
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It can never be said enough...

Welcome to the Crusade, Babbage!

Oh how interesting Return to the temple of Elemental Evil would be in C&C. 8)

........................................Omote

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Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:41 pm
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