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I am burnt out on running 3rd, and I am converting 
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Hlobane Orc

Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:00 am
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Return to Temple of Elemental Evil is in the pipeline for our party after they finish the original. I'm intending to either add 10 years to all the characters or having their henchmen form the party.


Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:45 pm
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Battle Stag
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Oops, I guess I missread that.
However I think Return is a very good module itself, despite the hardcare Greyhawker naysayers. good stuff.

..................................Omote

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Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:47 pm
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Red Cap

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Yes, RttToEE is lots of fun for a good hack-n-slash game! Back when I was still determined to make 3E work, we got through about 1/3 of it and had a good time.

Who knows, we might have finished it if we were running C&C! The onyl reason that game puttered out was due to boredom of the SLOOOW combats at that 8-9th or so level. Come to think of it, that was my last DM'd 3E game before I threw in the towel and picked back up my Rules Cyclopedia...


Sat Jul 15, 2006 1:20 pm
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Renegade Mage
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Well, since I first came across C&C, I've been busy showing it off to fellow gamers and pointing out the many good points about the game.

I've quickly convinced a gamer (DM) who has known nothing but D&D 3.x to try it and, from what he's seen so far, he's pretty much ready switch the game system he's been running (from 3.5) to C&C... He's pretty much tired of the constant little rule (or die roll) for every little detail and loss of some of the story telling and roleplaying he would like to see.

I've got another DM who's leaving for a few weeks for vacation, and I quickly stepped up to fill that 'gaming void' with some C&C goodness to showcase the game to a couple other D&D 3.x players...

I'm fairly exited at the prospect... Most of my DMing days were behind me back when I used to DM AD&D (2nd Ed) and although I had initially embraced D&D 3.0 -- it eventually left me cold but I stayed exclusively as a player bringing life into my character (despite the myriad of rolls and tedium of combat).

Now... I think I'm going to brush off some of those old 'classics' to use or at least derive from for a couple of unforgettable sessions!

Moriarty The Red

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Sat Jul 15, 2006 3:30 pm
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Mogrl

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Heck yes!! Go for it! I hope everyone is "open" enough to have fun!

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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.


Sun Jul 16, 2006 1:32 am
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Mist Elf

Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 7:00 am
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Post Another Rant
Greetings all....

I'm new on this forum, was given the adress by one of the Skobbit here, Moriarty! What I'd like to say is this :

I don't have the same experience as most of you guys around here, I've only been gaming for 5 years now, always 3e. But I understand a lot about why most of you switch to C&C. During those 5 years, I only really been a player for 1, 1 1/2, before we switch gaming group and I started DMing. First adventure ever was one of the first created for 3e, The Sunless Citadel, with Meepo as my favorite NPC. Of course the party accidently killed him in a battle 15 minutes after they met him, but still.

What I mean to say is that, being a full time Dm for my group (8H session/every sunday), my prep time is what takes most of my time. I'm lucky enough to have a pretty easy job (working night shift) to be able to do it there, otherwise my wife and kids wouldn't see their dad often, or I wouldn't be Dming at all.

I was tired of running modules since I feel you loose part of the excitment of being the DM and doing your own things, some on the fly but without wasting time with all the IF and BUT of pre-made campaign... So Im dming open concept ones with my group. I let them play as they want in Toril, and I prepare towns, npc's, hooks and quests depending on how they plan on adventuring. As you can imagine, it takes most of my time... So C&C looks like a nice change for me.

My only concern at this point is getting my player to be as enthusiastic as I am to switch too. They are all 3e Ed gamers, never heard of the THACO system (perhaps it's for the best!?), and for some a bit too addict of the PRC's and Min/Maxing. I even had a player complain that he didn't have his familiar yet at 2nd level. "It was my right to get one at 1st level" he said, although he made no RP at all concerning it, nor ask his master (NPC) how he got his.

I believe most would switch just for the fact that some things/rules makes no sense using the 3e, and they complain about it.

(i.e: Rule about having 50% chance of hitting your grappled friend when using a ranged weapon, even though your friend is being "grappled" by a huge Tyrannosaurus in his mouth, and there is a lot of dinosaur flesh to hit before your half eaten friend.)

Of course I could also make house rules, but I would have to carry a book for all of them, since there is a lot that needs twitching. I would prefer my player just Rping the fact that he takes his time to hit the Dinosaur, waiting for it to swing his head the opposite way before throwing his dagger.

That would bring more life to the table than "I move 15 feet here*on grid*, throw a dagger, roll 55 on % dice, roll 17 to hit, roll 6 pts of damage.

That is just starting to piss me off royaly. Than I as a DM, needs to explain what their characters see or how they do it for almost every hit. I need more than just this.

Anyway, enough ranting... If any of you brave C&C souls have any tips on how to convince my players to actually just try it for a few sessions, it might show them just how fun it can be, without relying on tons of rules, special abilities, Prestige classes, templates, etc to have fun.

The One and All


Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:02 am
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Hlobane Orc

Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:00 am
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It's difficult to explain to people who have known only 3e how different the other systems were. They had their faults (lots of them) but they had one thing in common - speed.

Most of the time the DM was the arbiter of every dispute and seeing as most of the time it was the 'common sense' of the DM, then disputes were rare and solved on the spot, rather than digging through books looking for an obscure rule or two. At least in my experience.

If your players are looking for some kind of video game experience then I am afraid none of us can help them. If, however, they are looking for a fun few hours then they should adopt C&C - they will get a lot more fun per hour.

Perhaps we ought to adopt a fun-per-hour scale rating for different RPGs.


Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:29 am
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Renegade Mage
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mmmm... tacos...

Glad you decided to join the Crusade and welcome to the forums.

THACO (To Hit Armor Class 0) was a simple enough system... but a bit backwards compared to the d20 system.

I think the easiest way to demo C&C for your players may be to set up something on the side... and have just a couple of players try it out first.

Or maybe you could skip D&D one weekend but run C&C instead... just as a change of pace so to speak. I think most players won't mind trying it -- gaming is gaming after all. The real trick will be to have something dynamic enough that's both short and sweet.

If you read my previous post in this thread, you know that I'm running a session or two with the next couple of weeks. Maybe if there is a weekend in the near future where you'll be able to do something similar (when you might be short a player or two) and run a game of C&C for the others.

At this point... I just wish I had a taco.

Moriarty the Red

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Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:38 am
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Mogrl

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I've got a thread for you on the old TLG boards. I'll go get you the link.

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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.


Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:40 am
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Mogrl

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Here you go:
http://p075.ezboard.com/ftrolllordgames ... =342.topic

Hope it works.

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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.


Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:41 am
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Mist Elf

Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 7:00 am
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Quote:
babbage wrote:
If your players are looking for some kind of video game experience then I am afraid none of us can help them. If, however, they are looking for a fun few hours then they should adopt C&C - they will get a lot more fun per hour.



I don't think they are all looking for a video Game in D&D, anyway, not from what I've seen. 3 out of 5 are excellent role players. They take their characters RP seriously and have fun role playing them as best as possible. They have fun with them and provide a lot of insight for me to work with. One of my player is also keeping a Journal for her character.

The other 2 are a bit different.

One I beleive sees this as a video game, since he mostly play Final Fantasy or Lineage all the time. For him I think he see D&D as "How can I build a PC to be powerful in this and that?" Once he's done this, then he create some little story about his PC, depending how he built it. Him I will have difficulties switching over C&C. If I can't, well, he'll find himself another group while I bring in a replacement (I have a couple waiting).

The other is the typical "Strong Silent Type". These guys are hard to read. Never know when they have fun, take every bit of Rping pressure like a direct hint from the DM that they are too quiet (even when done 100% RP). He's the one who hates having to skip a week, but doesn't mind coming late if he's got something else. I'm never sure with him. All his PC are Rped the same, except for races and classes. Spending hours on personal stuff for his PC always seems like a waste, never feeling like he truely enjoys it, or appreciate it.

Quote:
moriarty777 wrote:
mmmm... tacos...



Hey Man.. I heard you talking enough of THACO to know what it is, I just didn't know how to spell it... But mmm... Tacos sure sounds good right now! lol

Quote:
Treebore wrote:
Here you go:



Thanks


Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:42 am
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Ulthal

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Post Re: Another Rant
Quote:
The One and All wrote:
Anyway, enough ranting... If any of you brave C&C souls have any tips on how to convince my players to actually just try it for a few sessions, it might show them just how fun it can be, without relying on tons of rules, special abilities, Prestige classes, templates, etc to have fun.

The One and All



My group also grew up on 3E and 3.5E. As a DM, I didn't mind it until after about 7th-9th level, then it got real tediuos. I came across C&C and loved. I agonized for 6 months how I could convert them over. None seemed receptive to the idea when brought up. Then, after one particular adventure, I just said I was not going to run 3.5E anymore. They needed to convert their characters. Then we started C&C.
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Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:56 am
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Red Cap

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Post Re: Another Rant
Quote:
The One and All wrote:
The Sunless Citadel, with Meepo as my favorite NPC.


Tue Jul 18, 2006 12:16 pm
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Hlobane Orc

Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:00 am
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You see, the age of the Dungeon Master is not dead! What the players seem to forget (and some DMs) is that it is an onerous task to be a DM. You have lots of work to do behind the scenes. If the DM decides he cannot continue with 3e/3.5e and devote the time it needs (demands?) then he should be bold enough to say so. Of course, you have a cunning alternative all prepared and ready...


Tue Jul 18, 2006 12:24 pm
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Ulthal

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Post Re: Another Rant
Quote:
PeelSeel2 wrote:
My group also grew up on 3E and 3.5E. As a DM, I didn't mind it until after about 7th-9th level, then it got real tediuos. I came across C&C and loved. I agonized for 6 months how I could convert them over. None seemed receptive to the idea when brought up. Then, after one particular adventure, I just said I was not going to run 3.5E anymore. They needed to convert their characters. Then we started C&C.



I grew up on classic D&D and AD&D. I moved to other systems when 2nd edition came out. When 3E hit, I started up with it, but the prep work and length of time it took to play started negatively impacting the game. I started looking at a return to classic D&D, but also discovered C&C and LA when I started poking around. So here I am!


Tue Jul 18, 2006 1:58 pm
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Red Cap

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The One and All - You might try comparing the systems to show how they are similar to your players. Though C&C has an old school feel, it does borrow quite a bit from 3e.

Also, feel free to adapt 3e material to C&C if you want. I use a variant of 3e's skills myself.
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Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:05 pm
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Mist Elf

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I know just saying "Im done with 3.5ed, im switching to C&C! Anyone against it? You?.. You? Well too bad, I decide" would be nice, but if I can do it more subtly it would be better.

What I like is the fact that almost anything can be added with a bit of work, and that from various source.

One of my players said that he wouldn't mind trying, but he was lenient because of the simplicity of it. He doesn't mind about the rules, cause we all agree that it's what takes most of the time at the table... So right there they are 50% coverted.

The major point that they don't like is the fact that there is not a lot of variation in which classes you can take. They are all accustom to all the different Prestige Classes from numerous books, and I think that if there is someway to incorporate them in the game, either as classes or RP wise, that might convince them.

As for my part, If I want to play for example a Wizard "Elemental savant", I don't need the exact PRC and Bonuses to help me Rp that type of character... I just need to set my mind on this type of PC, and RP it like one.

So adding PrC or something like it ;

Anyone had any problem with this ? has anyone ever tried it? Does it work? Is it worth it? Is the game still balanced?

Thanks


Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:38 am
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Mogrl

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I developed a "classless system" which allows near-total character customization, if you're interested in checking it out. It can be found through my signature... or at:
My subsite


Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:43 am
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Red Cap

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Quote:
The One and All wrote:
...They are all accustom to all the different Prestige Classes from numerous books, and I think that if there is someway to incorporate them in the game, either as classes or RP wise, that might convince them....



Ask your players "what type of character do you want?". Then have them put it down on paper and 'create' their own class based one in the C&C PHB. That's what I did and it worked.

Quote:
The One and All wrote:
...So adding PrC or something like it ;

Anyone had any problem with this ? has anyone ever tried it? Does it work? Is it worth it? Is the game still balanced?



1 - No problem so far!

2 - Tried it with 5 characters from a 3.5 game and one was a PRC. I just converted what I needed and kept it simple. C&C is SIMPLE so try not to overcomplicate things.

3 - It works in my campaign because I've got great role players who understand the value of LESS IS MORE. Even though they like the various PRCs and other 1001 customizations available to them in 3.5, they easily adapted to my style of game because the story took center stage for a change. That alone kept them off the 3.5 bandwagon long enough to enjoy a game for a change!

4 - If you are having problems with your game then it's definately worth a try.

5 - Try not to worry about 'balance' so much as story and character development. I find the SIEGE engine allows for quick and easy solutions and I never mind the balance issue. Just don't throw a swarm of dragons at a 1st level party. Balance is all up to the DM.

My 2 coppers!


Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:51 am
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Red Cap

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You could also try the substitution level mechanic found in Champions of Valor. Here's an example of how it works: Purifier Sub Levels.

To make it simpler still, just swap out one class ability for the one you want.
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Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:22 am
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Hlobane Orc

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Yay! My Players Handbook and Monsters & Treasure arrived today! I'm a happy bunny. I'm now an apprentice CK (Master DM, so my skills should transfer easily! )


Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:02 am
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Ungern
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Post Re: I am burnt out on running 3rd, and I am converting
[quote="Philotomy Jurament"]
Quote:
james_austintx wrote:
They felt like they were limited because they didn't have skills and such written down on their sheets. However, that's a false impression, and really the opposite is true: lists of skills are more limiting. I'd encourage you to try out the SIEGE engine and Primes for resovling skills (and feat-like actions) before importing a skill system.

Basically, any time a 3E PC would use a skill, a C&C PC can use an ability check. If it's a task that is central to the PC's class and background, then you can choose to give the PCs level as modifier. If it's not something central to the PC's class and background, roll the check without a level modifier.

Pulling in a skill system is possible, of course; one of the big benefits of C&C is the ease with which it can be tweaked and modified with stuff from other systems. But I'd suggest trying out the SIEGE engine, first, and giving it a chance. My players weren't so sure, in the beginning (they kept looking at their sheets to see "what they could do"), but now they love it.



I have the C&C books but haven't played it or ran it. I want to give it a try but I have to admit that's one of the things that I like about 3e is the skill system.

Mike

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Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:50 pm
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Red Cap

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Post Re: I am burnt out on running 3rd, and I am converting
[quote="qstor"]
Quote:
Philotomy Jurament wrote:
I have the C&C books but haven't played it or ran it. I want to give it a try but I have to admit that's one of the things that I like about 3e is the skill system.

Mike



Use it - C&C is quite modular and allows for house rules and components from other games to be transplanted quite easily. Even 3rd edition


Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:08 am
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Maukling
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Post Re: I am burnt out on running 3rd, and I am converting
Quote:
qstor wrote:
I have the C&C books but haven't played it or ran it. I want to give it a try but I have to admit that's one of the things that I like about 3e is the skill system.

Mike



No reason not to use the Castle Zagyg system then. The experience cost folks often say is high, but I dont think so. Basicly one aquires a category of abilties with a skill bundle. Wilderness survival, for instance, throws in a variety of abilties, track, snaring, hunting, fishing, and anything associated with outdoor survival.

Sure, the xp cost is high, but for the price one gets, essentially a +2 bonus (think of it as a pseudo level) on a broad category of ability.

And these things dont cost so much if one awards for the successful use of the ability separately from the general xp awards.

Something to think about anyhow.
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Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:15 am
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Red Cap

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Post Re: I am burnt out on running 3rd, and I am converting
Quote:
qstor wrote:
I have the C&C books but haven't played it or ran it. I want to give it a try but I have to admit that's one of the things that I like about 3e is the skill system.

Mike



I like the 3e skill system as well, at least at its basic level. Since I switched to C&C, I've kept skills from 3e. I've made a few tweaks, dropping a couple of skills (i.e. concentrations, use magic device) and changing the name of some back (i.e. pick pockets, wilderness lore). I made track a skill since characters beyond rangers can track. I left traps as a class ability, though.

What I do from there is to say that any time a class ability and a skill duplicate (i.e. rogues have pick pockets), then the character gets a +2 bonus to that skill.

I'm still working through it and seeing if there are kinks to work out, but it seems good thus far.
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Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:32 am
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Mist Elf

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Well this weekend is the first game session and guess what the first character concept given to me was?

A halfing thief/illusionist....haha

I doubt the player has even read his new C&C PHB yet, but I will let him do it.


Tue Aug 01, 2006 11:48 am
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Battle Stag
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Quote:
james_austintx wrote:
Well this weekend is the first game session and guess what the first character concept given to me was?

A halfing thief/illusionist....haha

Good luck in your game JA. Will you be using the one of the various multiclass rules found on these boards or in Crusader #4?

You may also want to explain that C&C is more of a game about archtypes, then multi-role characters. The reason I mention this is because multi-classing is a bit slower then what happens with multi-role PCs in v3.5.

.........................................Omote

FPQ

I doubt the player has even read his new C&C PHB yet, but I will let him do it.


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Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:28 pm
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