Birthright

rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 2:35 pm

In this thread I will report my conversion notes for a Birthright campaign. Note that they are still in their infancy, I have had not time to test them. Any and all comments are welcome (as always). Enjoy!
SIDHELIEN (CERILIAN ELVES)
Racial trait and abilities

They have the following abilities of C&C elves:

- Enhanced senses

- Twilight vision

- Move silently

- Spell resistance

They have also the following abilities:

- Immunity to all non-magical diseases and aging attacks. They are essentially immortal.

- Woodland stride (like Druid). They can also ignore the ground characteristics when moving or marching; elves can move over heavy snow, soft sand or treacherous mountainside as easily as humans walk across smooth wooden floors.

- They do not need to sleep, but must rest quietly (studying spells, mounting watch etc. qualify as rest).

- They are always of a nonlawful alignment.

- They do not follow any god or other supernatural power. They are never clerics, druids nor paladins.
Attribute modifiers

-1 str, -1 con, +1 dex, +1 int

rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 2:48 pm

DWARVES
Racial traits and abilities

Cerilian dwarves have all the abilities of C&C dwarves except the following:

- Animosity

- Enmity

- Defensive expertise

They gain the following abilities:

- Defensive expertise (Ogres, Orogs): +2 to AC when fighting ogres and orogs.

- Dense body: they weight from 250 to 300 pounds. They only receive half damage from bludgeoning and crushing attacks. Their base ER is 14 (this is cumulative with ER bonuses for Prime abilities).

- They cannot be Wizards (unless they have a Bloodline)
Attribute modifiers

+2 con, -2 dex

rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 2:59 pm

HALF-ELVES

They are welcome by their elven parents, and are considered Sidhelien. Humans however are distrustful, and refer to them as bewitched or changelings.
Racial traits and abilities

They have all the abilities of C&C half-elves, except the following:

spot hidden doors.

They gain the following abilities:

Human lineage:

Partial immunity: +2 to saves vs. aging and diseases

Elf lineage:

Partial immunity: +4 to saves vs. aging and diseases

rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 3:26 pm

HALFLINGS

Racial traits and abilities

They have all the abilities of C&C halflings.

They also gain the following abilities:

- Shadow sight (Wisdom): by concentrating for one minute, and with a succesful check, they can detect evil, detect undead and detect magic (necromantic effects only) at the 5th level of ability. These abilities can be used at will, and they can be used all three at once.

- Shadow stride (Wisdom): Three times per week, they can dimension door and shadow walk at the 10th level of ability. The CL of the check depends on the closeness of the Shadow World, from CL 0 on a cold winter night in a crypt, to CL 10 on a sunny summer day in a civilised place.
Attribute modifiers

+1 dex, +1 wis, -2 str

rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 3:48 pm

MAGICIANS

Magicians are practicers of lesser magic, and it is the only arcane spellcasting profession accessible to characters which are not Blooded, or are not of elven descent. Magicians are usually human.
Abilities

Magicians have all the abilities of Illusionists, with the exception of the disguise ability.

They are allowed a wider choice of weapons:

dagger, knife, dart, club, short bow, light crossbow, rapier, sling, short sword, staff.

rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 3:55 pm

BARDS
Abilities

Cerilian bards have all the abilities of C&C bards. However, due to the cerilian bardic traditions, they often dual-class or multi-class as magicians.

rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 3:58 pm

DRUIDS

In Cerilia, druids are priests of Erik, the god of nature and the hunt. They are especially prominent in the Rjurik lands, but can be found throughout the rest of Cerilia.

rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 4:02 pm

WIZARDS

Cerilian wizards are wielders of true magic, but only blooded humans, elves and half-elves can command its arcane power.
Abilities

They have the same abilities of C&C Wizards. If they are regents, they can also command the power of realm magic.

rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:18 pm

CLERICS

There are many faiths in Cerilia, and some of them require for their clerics to follow particular paths.
Haelyn

These clerics often multi-class or dual-class as Paladins or Knights.

Special weapon: any

Alignment: Lawful good

Paladins may worship Haelyn
Erik

Druids are priests of Erik
Cuiracen

These clerics often multi-class or dual-class as Fighters.

Special weapon: any

Alignment: Chaotic good

Paladins may worship Cuiracen
Nesirie

Special weapon: harpoon, net, sling, spear, trident

Alignment: Chaotic good

Paladins may worship Nesirie. They may only be female.
Ruornil

These clerics often multi-class or dual-class as Wizards or Magicians

Special weapon: javelin, sling, spear, short sword

Alignment: Neutral
Sera

These clerics often multi-class or dual-class as Rogues

Special weapon: none

Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
Avani

These clerics often multi-class or dual-class as Wizards or Magicians

Special weapon: spear, any bow

Alignment: Lawful Neutral

Paladins may worship Avani. They hunt all who misuse the power of magic.
Elole

These clerics often multi-class or dual-class as Rogues or Assassins

Special weapon: dart, crossbow, sling, short sword

Alignment: Chaotic Neutral or Chaotic Evil

Turn undead: command
Laerme

Special weapon: bow

Alignment: Chaotic Good
Kriesha

Among the Vos, these clerics are always female

Special weapon: none

Alignment: Lawful Evil

Turn undead: command
Belinik

These clerics often multi-class or dual-class as Barbarians

Special weapon: any

Alignment: Chaotic Evil

Turn undead: command

Fizz · Post by **Fizz** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:04 pm

As a big fan of Birthright, i like most of what you've done here.

Some notes:

Elves: i'd say elves don't have to be chaotic. Rather, say they must not be lawful.

Dwarves: In 2nd Ed, a dwarf's encumberance rating was treated as though his Strength were 4 points higher. I'm not sure if an effective +4 ER in C&C amounts to the same thing- it might be more potent than +4 Strength. Have to think through the numbers, but the idea is correct.

Halflings: Why Charisma instead of Wisdom? Not necessarily bad, just curious.

Magicians: Do you retain the lesser magic - true magic dichotomy as per the setting? If so, the illusionist spell list is worthless. You might want to give them some new abilities at higher level (i have a couple ideas) or else modify their XP progression.

Clerics: I see you're not going the specialty priest route. I can never decide how i want to do that. Yours looks pretty good, but i might give each one extra ability. Say, electrical resistance for Cuiraecen, fear for Belinik, something like that. Keeps it simple, but gives some extra mechanical flavor.

Other classes: You might want to limit barbarians to the Rjurik and Vos. Vos knights could get mounted bonuses with a varsk , though their code of conduct would need some tweaks.

Do you include the guilders as an available class? If so, how do you deal with their bonus proficiencies?

Overall, really nice work. Good to know there are some other Birthright C&C'ers out there.
-Fizz

rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:49 pm

Hey Fizz,

thanks for the feedback!

Quote:
Elves: i'd say elves don't have to be chaotic. Rather, say they must not be lawful.

You are right, it is an error!

Quote:
Dwarves: In 2nd Ed, a dwarf's encumberance rating was treated as though his Strength were 4 points higher. I'm not sure if an effective +4 ER in C&C amounts to the same thing- it might be more potent than +4 Strength. Have to think through the numbers, but the idea is correct.

Well, the basic idea was that dwarves are treated as having strength and constitution as Primes for the purpose of encumbrance. This translates into 14 ER. Whether the numbers "match" is difficult to say, but the concept is the simpler I could think of.

Quote:
Halflings: Why Charisma instead of Wisdom? Not necessarily bad, just curious.

In C&C charisma expresses willpower. I think the idea behind the 2nd edition version was that halflings have a very strong willpower. In C&C, haflings have bonuses to save vs. fear, which is charisma based. Considering the background of cerilian halflings, this trait matches quite well. Also, I based the abilities they have on charisma since it seems a strong will is necessary to produce those feats.

Quote:
Magicians: Do you retain the lesser magic - true magic dichotomy as per the setting? If so, the illusionist spell list is worthless. You might want to give them some new abilities at higher level (i have a couple ideas) or else modify their XP progression.

I consider "Lesser magic" as "proxy" for illusionist magic. The Illusionist class matches very well the Magician class. So, if Illusionists work well in C&C, they will work as well in Cerilia.

Quote:
Clerics: I see you're not going the specialty priest route. I can never decide how i want to do that. Yours looks pretty good, but i might give each one extra ability. Say, electrical resistance for Cuiraecen, fear for Belinik, something like that. Keeps it simple, but gives some extra mechanical flavor.

Here, too, the key idea is: keep it simple stupid. I wanted to stay as close to the C&C rules as possible, where they do not stray too far from the Cerilian flavor. I would avoid giving different powers to the different faiths, I never liked this aspect of 2nd edition. But if you have some cool ideas, please share!

Quote:
Other classes: You might want to limit barbarians to the Rjurik and Vos. Vos knights could get mounted bonuses with a varsk , though their code of conduct would need some tweaks.

Nice ideas! In fact, I had thought about birthright mount being applied to Varsk.

Quote:
Do you include the guilders as an available class? If so, how do you deal with their bonus proficiencies?

Still not sure about guilders. I do not have all the books with me, so I cannot work on them right now. But if you have ideas, please share!

Quote:
Overall, really nice work. Good to know there are some other Birthright C&C'ers out there.

Thanks again!

Antonio

Fizz · Post by **Fizz** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:13 pm

rabindranath72 wrote:
Well, the basic idea was that dwarves are treated as having strength and constitution as Primes for the purpose of encumbrance. This translates into 14 ER. Whether the numbers "match" is difficult to say, but the concept is the simpler I could think of.

What we'd need to do is figure out how much more 2nd Ed would allow them to carry, and then translate that to the appropriate ER value.

I'd rather make it a straight bonus, not treat them as primes. If you treated them as primes for ER, then those characters that DO have Strength and/or Constitution prime are somewhat screwed- they don't get as much benefit as they otherwise would.

Quote:
In C&C charisma expresses willpower. I think the idea behind the 2nd edition version was that halflings have a very strong willpower. In C&C, haflings have bonuses to save vs. fear, which is charisma based. Considering the background of cerilian halflings, this trait matches quite well. Also, I based the abilities they have on charisma since it seems a strong will is necessary to produce those feats.

Hmmm... imo the ability to see and enter the Shadow World is a function of perception, ie Wisdom. Charisma would still work, but just seems a bit off to me.

Quote:
Here, too, the key idea is: keep it simple stupid. I wanted to stay as close to the C&C rules as possible, where they do not stray too far from the Cerilian flavor. I would avoid giving different powers to the different faiths, I never liked this aspect of 2nd edition. But if you have some cool ideas, please share!

Fair enough, simple is good. I'd probably have a look at the specialty priests and choose one power that exemplifies the faith. So, some examples:

Haelyn: +2 bonus against Fear

Cuiraecen: half-damage from electrical attacks

Nesirie: water breathing at will

Ruornil: +2 CL to any spell cast when moon is full

Sera: Extra Curse or Bless spell once per day

Avani: Sunray

Eloele: Night vision

Laerme: +2 CL to resist charm and fire spells

Kriesha: Chill touch

Belinik: +1 on all Strength checks

Those are just some ideas off the top of my head, IF you want to add a bit of extra mechanical flavor.

I always get torn to how i want to handle the specialty priests. On one hand i like the simplicity of the single cleric class, but i also like the variability in the powers. Don't want a new class for every faith, though. I can never make up my mind about it. Heh.

Quote:
Still not sure about guilders. I do not have all the books with me, so I cannot work on them right now. But if you have ideas, please share!

Yeah, the problem is guilders made use of the 2nd Ed's NWP system. Now, i happen to use that system, so making the class is easy. But it's a bit trickier if you don't include NWP in your C&C campaign.

Be sure to let us know how it goes when you run your campaign.

-Fizz

Birthright · Post by **Birthright** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:20 pm

Wow! A Birthright thread.
I like much of what you have done, Rab.

My main difficulty has been with the lesser magic - true magic thing as well.

I really think that Wizards must be allowed to cast from the Illusionist spell list. This would mean that the Illusionist may need some kind of boost. I have thought about allowing one 'spontaneous' spell slot at each spell level for Illusionists to try and balance things out.

Like Fizz, I am torn as to how to deal with clerics - keeping it simple as you have done is good, but I feel that this strips away a lot of the flavour of the setting. Priests of Erik (for example) are actually quite different from druids under the 2e rules.

When the CKG is released, I may consider trying to create a seperate class for each. Or at least use a custom spell list and 2-3 special abilities for each deity.

I assume we leave out the Monk class. As for guilders, I suppose you could create some kind of class out of them, but the NWP access is hard to deal with - perhaps you could say the XP cost of learning skill packages (as per the Castle Zagyg rules) is halved or something.

Barrataria · Post by **Barrataria** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:47 am

Great setting... those looking for something different should definitely consider it as an option, although the box set is a little hard to find. I can't speak for the 3E stuff that's been put together... are they doing maps too?

I put together very basic "domains" for clerics in my C&C world, and I think what you are doing for clerics is about the same level of complexity i.e. not much.

As for illusionists/wizards, I think you can run them as is. I forget my 2E nowadays (thank god), but I thought that wizards were very rare and could cast any spells and that magicians were (sort of) common and cast only divination spells and illusions? I never liked the alternate weaponry for the magician, but I understand it's consistent (and like the 3E sorcerer I suppose too).

If anything you could add the detection spells to the illusionist list and call it good, or give them an extra spell per spell level (which was in the BR box). I think giving the wizards access to all the spells makes them too powerful and makes it so that no one will play illusionists (because if your wizard can cast phantasmal killer et. al., why bother limiting yourself? I know the setting limits it but... C&C illusionists are pretty cool and giving them a few more spells and ability to cast more should do what you want it to do.

Finally, to make the C&C bard look more like the 2E bard, I think you should hold them to light armor and give them a d6 for hp, and then you can just give them the spells and not have to fool with multiclassing.

Anyway, go forth and conquer!

BB

rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:41 am

thanks for the feedback, everyone! I knew there would have been some love for Birthright!
I have not much time now for detailed answers, just a few points though:

1) I updated the halfling following Fizz's suggestions about perception.

2) I never liked the specialty priests, so I strongly prefer C&C's clerics. Allowing or enforcing multiclassing are a simple way of giving them flavor. Anyway, I might think about Fizz's ideas of simple abilities. They could replace a spell use per day. Also, I might think about using Primes. For example, clerics of Avani are known as scholars, so I might request Intelligence as Prime. Clerics of Laerme might have Charisma as Prime.

3) I do not want to make illusionists cheap. I like the balance of classes in C&C. And the division in lesser and true magic can be used just to "explain" these two different approaches to magic. Restriction of Wizards to blooded humans, elves and half-elves already makes wizards quite peculiar, and gives a strong flavor. Again, I want to keep things as simple as possible.

That's all for now.

Cheers!

Antonio

Fizz · Post by **Fizz** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 4:37 pm

rabindranath72 wrote:
Also, I might think about using Primes. For example, clerics of Avani are known as scholars, so I might request Intelligence as Prime. Clerics of Laerme might have Charisma as Prime.

Ooo, i like that. Now, are you suggesting replacing the standard wisdom prime for clerics, or keeping wisdom as a required prime plus requiring a second prime?

I'd suggest as follows:

Haelyn: Wisdom

Cuiraecen: Strength

Nesirie: Wisdom

Ruornil: Intelligence

Sera: Charisma

Avani: Intelligence

Eloele: Dexterity

Laerme: Charisma

Kriesha: Constitution

Belinik: Strength

Moradin: Constitution

Not sure about Kartathok, but then i'm not sure everyone allows goblin PCs like i do... heh.

-Fizz

Fizz · Post by **Fizz** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 4:39 pm

Birthright wrote:
Like Fizz, I am torn as to how to deal with clerics - keeping it simple as you have done is good, but I feel that this strips away a lot of the flavour of the setting. Priests of Erik (for example) are actually quite different from druids under the 2e rules.

Yeah, the thing that has always bugged me (in any setting or system) is that a priest of nature is a druid, and a priest of anything else is a cleric. Druids become very specific kinds of priests, and the cleric is the most generic. It seems like there should be something in the middle of those two extremes.

-Fizz

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 4:48 pm

Great thread guys. Great, well thought out content. *watches closely*
-O
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rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:27 pm

Fizz wrote:
Ooo, i like that. Now, are you suggesting replacing the standard wisdom prime for clerics, or keeping wisdom as a required prime plus requiring a second prime?

I'd suggest as follows:

Haelyn: Wisdom

Cuiraecen: Strength

Nesirie: Wisdom

Ruornil: Intelligence

Sera: Charisma

Avani: Intelligence

Eloele: Dexterity

Laerme: Charisma

Kriesha: Constitution

Belinik: Strength

Moradin: Constitution

Not sure about Kartathok, but then i'm not sure everyone allows goblin PCs like i do... heh.

-Fizz

No, it would be a "strongly recommended" Prime. Wisdom would still be mandatory. This prime requirement might be used in place of the multi/dual-class option for those clerics less specialised. For example, Laerme, Kriesha, Sera and Avani might benefit from a Prime choice instead of multiclassing.

Birthright · Post by **Birthright** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:25 pm

Fizz wrote:
Ooo, i like that. Now, are you suggesting replacing the standard wisdom prime for clerics, or keeping wisdom as a required prime plus requiring a second prime?

I'd suggest as follows:

Haelyn: Wisdom

Cuiraecen: Strength

Nesirie: Wisdom

Ruornil: Intelligence

Sera: Charisma

Avani: Intelligence

Eloele: Dexterity

Laerme: Charisma

Kriesha: Constitution

Belinik: Strength

Moradin: Constitution

Not sure about Kartathok, but then i'm not sure everyone allows goblin PCs like i do... heh.

-Fizz

I'd make Haelyn have Charisma as a second prime - the 2e rules have his priests requiring a minimum of 13 (from memory) in Charisma.

Birthright · Post by **Birthright** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:22 pm

Last night I put together a spell list for Haelyn based on allocating C&C spells to 2e spheres. They ended up with only 2 spells for levels 6-9. So clearly a translation of 2e spheres to C&C won't work that well.

Barrataria · Post by **Barrataria** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:59 am

Birthright wrote:
Last night I put together a spell list for Haelyn based on allocating C&C spells to 2e spheres. They ended up with only 2 spells for levels 6-9. So clearly a translation of 2e spheres to C&C won't work that well.

That's sort of how I ended up using simplified domains for my C&C clerics instead of trying to use the specialty priest concept. I picked two domains for each deity, and the cleric can have ONE of those spells per spell level attained. So, not too kludgy although you do still have those domain lists.

But in my homebrew I am using Babylonian, Greek, Finnish, and Indian mythos for different continents... there are so few deities in BR that the domains wouldn't be onerous at all.

BB
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rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:10 am

Barrataria wrote:
That's sort of how I ended up using simplified domains for my C&C clerics instead of trying to use the specialty priest concept. I picked two domains for each deity, and the cleric can have ONE of those spells per spell level attained. So, not too kludgy although you do still have those domain lists.

But in my homebrew I am using Babylonian, Greek, Finnish, and Indian mythos for different continents... there are so few deities in BR that the domains wouldn't be onerous at all.

BB

If one wants to go the route of using spells to distinguish the faiths, domains are quite handy, and no messing with the spell lists is required (I HATE messing with spell lists!)

Can you post your domains?

rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:45 am

I think the 2e NWP system could be directly added to C&C. How would you organise the C&C classes in terms of NWPs?

Fizz · Post by **Fizz** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:22 pm

rabindranath72 wrote:
I think the 2e NWP system could be directly added to C&C. How would you organise the C&C classes in terms of NWPs?

Personally, i don't. I just give all classes 4 slots, and they can pick any proficiency they want at the lowest price. One `purchase' improves at a rate of +1 every 2 levels. (They're secondary, after all.) But if they want they can take it `twice' to advance at +1 per level. The guilder is special and gets 8 slots to start, plus bonus slots as they advance.

-Fizz

Birthright · Post by **Birthright** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:56 pm

Personally, I'd probably just use secondary skills.

rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:26 pm

So, here are the proficiency groups:
Class Proficiency Groups

Fighter Warrior, General

Knight Warrior, General

Barbarian Warrior, General

Paladin Warrior, Priest, General

Ranger Warrior, Wizard, General

Cleric Priest, General

Druid Priest, Warrior, General

Wizard Wizard, General

Illusionist Wizard, General

Rogue Rogue, General

Assassin Warrior, Rogue, General

Bard Warrior, Priest, General

Monk Warrior, Rogue, General

The penalties to the rolls for the NWPs checks become CLs (if they are negative, they become positive and the reverse).

It is quite interesting that the Tracking proficiency can be used by anyone, but those who are not Rangers suffer a -6 penalty to the roll. This "rule" might be extended to allow the ability-based class skills.

rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:30 pm

HALF-OROGS

Racial traits and abilities

Half-orogs are treated as C&C half-orcs.

Fizz · Post by **Fizz** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:00 pm

rabindranath72 wrote:
HALF-OROGS

Racial traits and abilities

Half-orogs are treated as C&C half-orcs.

Ey- never liked the idea of half-orogs. I'm perfectly happy to be done with orcs and orc-like critters.

I do however, allow goblins as PCs, since they're sufficiently numerous and varied.

-Fizz

rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:59 am

I just do not want to throw the half-orc off the window Perhaps it could fit also as an "half-goblin".