Hi, first time poster here, and I have a question for debate/discussion...
I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the design of the SIEGE engine. Mechanically I love it: simple, good for off-the-cuff rolls, and a nicely unified system. However, I'm having a hard time with the "reality" of it (I hesitate to use this word because I know this is a FANTASY game).
For example, Hatrick the Illusionist has elected to take Strength as one of his other primes. The player puts his lowest score (a 6) in this ability. His adventuring companion, Glufinger the Rogue, has not taken Strength as a prime; however, the player has placed a 15 in that ability. Now here's the part I'm having a hard time with: Why does a character who is clearly weaker than another have a better chance at kicking in a door, lifting a fallen timber off of a fellow adventurer, winning an arm wrestling contest, etc.? Is there some "realistic" explanation? I know some players will have a hard time with this as well, so I'd like to be prepared for the debate!
- Fox
SIEGE engine conundrum...
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gideon_thorne
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Re: SIEGE engine conundrum...
Sometimes the knowledge and training in an ability is more effective than being untrained.
A prime indicates training. There are times that a seemingly frail person can topple a larger one simply because they have been trained to use their strength more effectively.
The above example cited in the original post could be explained thus.
Should the weaker character win the dice toss, its because they have found a way to apply principles of leverage against a physically overwhelming opponent. Should the stronger character win, they more or less just overwhelmed the trained but weaker opponent and for all intents and purposes just drove them into the ground.
As for the rest, its the same logic, applied principles of leverage vs trained strength.
Fact is, I've seen physically weaker but trained individuals pull off feats that those who are possessed of raw natural power, but lack training aren't as capable of.
The same logic can be applied to the other stats as well.
Bright vs learned
Wise vs insightful
Fit vs good genes
Naturally quick vs acrobatic
Charming vs dynamic.
Hope that helps.
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A prime indicates training. There are times that a seemingly frail person can topple a larger one simply because they have been trained to use their strength more effectively.
The above example cited in the original post could be explained thus.
Should the weaker character win the dice toss, its because they have found a way to apply principles of leverage against a physically overwhelming opponent. Should the stronger character win, they more or less just overwhelmed the trained but weaker opponent and for all intents and purposes just drove them into the ground.
As for the rest, its the same logic, applied principles of leverage vs trained strength.
Fact is, I've seen physically weaker but trained individuals pull off feats that those who are possessed of raw natural power, but lack training aren't as capable of.
The same logic can be applied to the other stats as well.
Bright vs learned
Wise vs insightful
Fit vs good genes
Naturally quick vs acrobatic
Charming vs dynamic.
Hope that helps.
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Peter Bradley
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach
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gideon_thorne
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Foxroe wrote:
Seems logical enough, but wouldn't more training translate into a higher ability score? So instead of a prime ability giving you a base 12 CC instead of a base 18 CC, why not just say "prime ability scores get +2 added to them" (or something similar)?
- Fox (playing the Devil's Advocate )
Well, unless there is a need to break a tie, the ability score itself is not relevant. The bonus is what is considered here. High ability scores already get a +1 to +3 range. A Prime represents a +6, if it helps to think in terms of 'bonuses'
A person with a high intelligence doesn't grow 'smarter' with the acquisition of more knowledge after all, they just become more 'learned'. The raw ability to process incoming information remains constant. Although, to forestall the objections I can see coming, there are those who would say that a person can grow in intelligence as well. Semantic quibbling I say.
A character starts with 'fixed' abilities in this game that do not change. Now, if one wishes to add in 'trained' learning of stats for characters who grow up from young to full potential, thats something else and also not germane to the 'raw' C&C system.
Now, as a character can add their level to certain ability checks, this represents a set of further 'training' by experience, so, in a way, a character is going to gain broadly in ability.
Much of the crunchy stuff is therefore subsumed into the 'abstract' SIEGE engine mechanic.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven
Peter Bradley
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach
Well said! I like it!
OK, so how's this:
Selecting an attribute as a prime indicates that the character has, through training, experience, introspection, or genetics, become more capable of applying said ability, despite what the numbers may reveal. This unique mechanic of the SIEGE engine adds a second dimension to ability scores. No longer can one simply say that a character with a low score is "weak".
A character with a prime low Strength may be capable of astounding feats of physical prowess, despite her seemingly fragile demeanor. A character with a prime low Dexterity could be capable of precision and agility under stress, despite his often oafish and clumsy actions. A character with a prime low Constitution seems to always pull through despite always being injured or ill. A character with prime low Intelligence always seems to stumble upon the right solution to a problem despite her seemingly illogical method of arriving at it. A character with prime low Wisdom always seems to be aware of his surroundings despite his usual comical absent-mindedness. A character with prime low Charisma has an unexplainable sway over those she interacts with, despite her odd and introverted demeanor.
On the opposite end of the spectrum, a character with a high non-prime score would have the advantage of brute application of that ability (bonus due to a higher score), but would lack the refinement required to be truly skilled (base 18 CC). Characters with prime a high ability score are truly "gifted", while characters with low non-prime scores should avoid undertaking tasks which would require these abilities, instead concentrating on what they are best at.
Maybe this would be a good thing to add to the Caste Keeper's Guide, to help CK's and players better understand the sense of the mechanic.
- Fox
OK, so how's this:
Selecting an attribute as a prime indicates that the character has, through training, experience, introspection, or genetics, become more capable of applying said ability, despite what the numbers may reveal. This unique mechanic of the SIEGE engine adds a second dimension to ability scores. No longer can one simply say that a character with a low score is "weak".
A character with a prime low Strength may be capable of astounding feats of physical prowess, despite her seemingly fragile demeanor. A character with a prime low Dexterity could be capable of precision and agility under stress, despite his often oafish and clumsy actions. A character with a prime low Constitution seems to always pull through despite always being injured or ill. A character with prime low Intelligence always seems to stumble upon the right solution to a problem despite her seemingly illogical method of arriving at it. A character with prime low Wisdom always seems to be aware of his surroundings despite his usual comical absent-mindedness. A character with prime low Charisma has an unexplainable sway over those she interacts with, despite her odd and introverted demeanor.
On the opposite end of the spectrum, a character with a high non-prime score would have the advantage of brute application of that ability (bonus due to a higher score), but would lack the refinement required to be truly skilled (base 18 CC). Characters with prime a high ability score are truly "gifted", while characters with low non-prime scores should avoid undertaking tasks which would require these abilities, instead concentrating on what they are best at.
Maybe this would be a good thing to add to the Caste Keeper's Guide, to help CK's and players better understand the sense of the mechanic.
- Fox
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gideon_thorne
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Sounds about right to me.
Here's another example on charisma. The golden hero of the High School football team who's always got everyone clustering around him because of his shining good looks and reputation. But is, at heart, a real ass.
But conversely, you have the quiet and plain sort who's keen insight and penetrating wit is only the tip of the iceberg of a complex and deep personality.
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Peter Bradley
Here's another example on charisma. The golden hero of the High School football team who's always got everyone clustering around him because of his shining good looks and reputation. But is, at heart, a real ass.
But conversely, you have the quiet and plain sort who's keen insight and penetrating wit is only the tip of the iceberg of a complex and deep personality.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven
Peter Bradley
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach
Re: SIEGE engine conundrum...
Foxroe wrote:
Why does a character who is clearly weaker than another have a better chance at kicking in a door, lifting a fallen timber off of a fellow adventurer, winning an arm wrestling contest, etc.? Is there some "realistic" explanation?
- Fox
Realistic explanation? To a point, and where that point lies becomes a matter of what you're comfortable with. We've gone round and round with this issue over the last few years, and it always devolves into a philosophical nature-vs.-nurture discussion. Part of my job involves training a variety of folks in physical and mental skills, and based on this experience I believe you really shouldn't discount mother nature...
A quick fix that many seem to like: house rule that primes cannot be lower than 9. This ensures that no one with less than low-average intelligence, at least, will end up in astrophysics.
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Birthright
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Barrataria
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gideon_thorne wrote:
Sounds about right to me.
Here's another example on charisma. The golden hero of the High School football team who's always got everyone clustering around him because of his shining good looks and reputation. But is, at heart, a real ass.
But conversely, you have the quiet and plain sort who's keen insight and penetrating wit is only the tip of the iceberg of a complex and deep personality.
There's also just plain stupid luck and randomness, and you want that to have an effect. The golden hero can go on a date and somehow manage to say exactly the wrong thing at exactly the wrong time. It shouldn't ever happen, but on this one night, it does, and the date walks out on him.
Or anyone who wins a contest at a basketball game by making a half-court shot. Same deal.
BB
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gideon_thorne
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Barrataria wrote:
There's also just plain stupid luck and randomness, and you want that to have an effect.
Hence dice rolls.
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Peter Bradley
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach
Re: SIEGE engine conundrum...
Great idea!Joe Mac wrote:
A quick fix that many seem to like: house rule that primes cannot be lower than 9. This ensures that no one with less than low-average intelligence, at least, will end up in astrophysics.
Something I've done as a house rule is put a numerical rating on a task if I deem it necessary. Like a minimum of a 9 STR is needed to even have a chance to push open the stuck door. I'll likewise rule sometimes that a STR of 18 or higher automatically succeeds.
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Witterquick
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My best illustration of a high non-prime stat was a real life friend of mine. He was huge, and could easily lift me, a grown man, up into the air without effort. However he never worked out, didn't pursue sports, and was quite academic in his pursuits. That meant that when it came to those actions that would probably require a dice roll (in game terms) he's have the brute ability, but the lack of intuition and experience about how to do it.
Another example? A high Intellect but non-prime could be a very intelligent but under-educated individual.
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Another example? A high Intellect but non-prime could be a very intelligent but under-educated individual.
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Re: SIEGE engine conundrum...
[quote="Foxroe"]Why does a character who is clearly weaker than another have a better chance at kicking in a door, lifting a fallen timber off of a fellow adventurer, winning an arm wrestling contest, etc.?[/quote]
For me, the explanation is simple. its the difference between someone who knows Judo and someone who is just a pugilist. Anyone can fight, but those who are trained in it, can whoop the one who is just raw strength any day.
Same goes for moving big things, or opening doors.
Leverage, etc etc etc...
Simple for me to justify, but that's just my experience.
Cheers,
J.
For me, the explanation is simple. its the difference between someone who knows Judo and someone who is just a pugilist. Anyone can fight, but those who are trained in it, can whoop the one who is just raw strength any day.
Same goes for moving big things, or opening doors.
Leverage, etc etc etc...
Simple for me to justify, but that's just my experience.
Cheers,
J.
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Fiffergrund
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The rulebook says that the SIEGE engine isn't meant to hold up in every situation, and that common sense should trump it.
A character with a strength 6 should never be able to outlift a character with strength 15, regardless of Prime. We can spend all day justifying primes as training, but the bottom line is that no amount of training substitutes for raw muscle and bone mass when it comes to the ability to lift. This is why there are no 120 pound but highly trained individuals in the World's Strongest Man competition.
The prime matters most when saving throws are involved, as training can play a large role in survivability or the ability to escape bonds, etc.
So, just know when to use the SIEGE engine, and when to decide that its not applicable. Not everything needs a roll, and not everything needs to be governed by the SIEGE engine model.
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A character with a strength 6 should never be able to outlift a character with strength 15, regardless of Prime. We can spend all day justifying primes as training, but the bottom line is that no amount of training substitutes for raw muscle and bone mass when it comes to the ability to lift. This is why there are no 120 pound but highly trained individuals in the World's Strongest Man competition.
The prime matters most when saving throws are involved, as training can play a large role in survivability or the ability to escape bonds, etc.
So, just know when to use the SIEGE engine, and when to decide that its not applicable. Not everything needs a roll, and not everything needs to be governed by the SIEGE engine model.
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Sir Fiffergrund, Lord Marshal of the Castle and Crusade Society.
He Who Hides Behind The Elephant's Back
Marshal Fiffergrund, Knight-Errant of the Castle and Crusade Society
Fiffergrund wrote:
The rulebook says that the SIEGE engine isn't meant to hold up in every situation, and that common sense should trump it.
A character with a strength 6 should never be able to outlift a character with strength 15, regardless of Prime. We can spend all day justifying primes as training, but the bottom line is that no amount of training substitutes for raw muscle and bone mass when it comes to the ability to lift. This is why there are no 120 pound but highly trained individuals in the World's Strongest Man competition.
The prime matters most when saving throws are involved, as training can play a large role in survivability or the ability to escape bonds, etc.
So, just know when to use the SIEGE engine, and when to decide that its not applicable. Not everything needs a roll, and not everything needs to be governed by the SIEGE engine model.
QFT. My personal rules have been that primes only count on saves. At all other times, base difficulty is 15.
However, I have ammended this so that I use the siege engine-- however ANY CLASS OR RACE ABILITY IS ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS CONSIDERED PRIME. This way you cannot have elf rangers wishing they were human so they could be more competent, etc.
In ability score contests-- arm wrestling for example, I don't use the Siege engine either-- much easier-- a d6+stat mod. This makes it impossible for a halfling weakling to beat a strong ogre in arm wrestling-- which is sadly something that can happen when a d20 is used to resolve such things.
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Quote:
which is sadly something that can happen when a d20 is used to resolve such things
Depends on how you're using that d20, and what the modifiers to it are.
Otherwise, Fiffergrund is right. People need to move away from the whole "roll to see" thing. Common sense prevails in C&C. You don't make checks for everything, and everything doesn't need a check.
I don't really see the need for strict 'Primes' anyway. It is just as easy to play without them and simply decide which checks should be made at 12 and which at 18 (or any number imbetween) based on the Character Archetype and the agreement of the Player and Dungeon Master.
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gideon_thorne
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Ok.. so you have a halfling and an ogre sitting down to a good arm wrastle and one rolls a strength check. Astonishingly the ogre fails and the halfling wins..
Why? The ogre's elbow skidded on a wet patch of beer on the table, causing the ogre to crash to the floor upsetting both table and potables, and therefore the halfling 'wins' by default. Perhaps the halfling understood that it only took just a bit of alternate lever pressure to take advantage of such a fortuitous circumstance. Perhaps the disparity in proportion of the two adversaries gave the halfling a bit more advantage because the ogre had to lean in at a bad angle.
The end result being that several folks won some amazing long shot bets in the local bar. The ogre, not being a particularly bright specimen is now sitting on the floor wondering why he's covered in beer. And the halfling is a hero whom some fortunate bettors are buying drinks for, not to mention who is also being propositioned by the working ladies... after all if hes THAT strong..
There are lots of explanations that a clever CK can use to bullshit any roll.
Brought to you by the incarnation of the Imp of the Perverse who can always see the most effective way to toss metaphorical rocks to knock down theoretical semantics.
Sometimes its not about the rules, but instead it's about letting chance make a tense situation into a hilarious result.
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Peter Bradley
Why? The ogre's elbow skidded on a wet patch of beer on the table, causing the ogre to crash to the floor upsetting both table and potables, and therefore the halfling 'wins' by default. Perhaps the halfling understood that it only took just a bit of alternate lever pressure to take advantage of such a fortuitous circumstance. Perhaps the disparity in proportion of the two adversaries gave the halfling a bit more advantage because the ogre had to lean in at a bad angle.
The end result being that several folks won some amazing long shot bets in the local bar. The ogre, not being a particularly bright specimen is now sitting on the floor wondering why he's covered in beer. And the halfling is a hero whom some fortunate bettors are buying drinks for, not to mention who is also being propositioned by the working ladies... after all if hes THAT strong..
There are lots of explanations that a clever CK can use to bullshit any roll.
Brought to you by the incarnation of the Imp of the Perverse who can always see the most effective way to toss metaphorical rocks to knock down theoretical semantics.
Sometimes its not about the rules, but instead it's about letting chance make a tense situation into a hilarious result.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven
Peter Bradley
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach
gideon_thorne wrote:
There are lots of explanations that a clever CK can use to bullshit any roll.
So true!
It's easy to get mired in the desire to make the rules more realistic, or to even try to wring the realism out of the rules as written. Gideon is right. The point of the game is not to recreate reality. The point is to create fantasy. The SEIGE Engine is a simple method for resolving tasks, and it is up to the CK to use some imagination to interpret what the roll means (if you even bother to roll!)
- Fox
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CharlieRock
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Re: SIEGE engine conundrum...
Foxroe wrote:
Hi, first time poster here, and I have a question for debate/discussion...
I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the design of the SIEGE engine. Mechanically I love it: simple, good for off-the-cuff rolls, nicely unified system. However, I'm having hard time with the "reality" of it (I hesitate to use this word because I know this is a FANTASY game).
For example, Hatrick the Illusionist has elected to take Strength as one of his other primes. The player puts his lowest score (a 6) in this ability. His adventuring companion, Glufinger the Rogue, has not taken Strength as a prime; however, the player has placed a 15 in that ability. Now here's the part I'm having a hard time with: Why does a character who is clearly weaker than another have a better chance at kicking in a door, lifting a fallen timber off of a fellow adventurer, winning an arm wrestling contest, etc.? Is there some "realistic" explanation? I know some players will have a hard time with this as well, so I'd like to be prepared for the debate!
- Fox
It's like when them little dudes up and kick something and scream HI-YaaH!
You never would have expected it, and the result is rather jaw-dropping.
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which brings up another question. Why can't a str prime be opposed by say an INT prime roll?
Take the above Arm Wrestling example. Suppose the Ogre is stronger, why couldn't the Halfling outwit the Ogre by say kicking the table in such a way to gain him the advantage?
throw sand in the dudes eye and win
cheat
Cheers,
J.
Take the above Arm Wrestling example. Suppose the Ogre is stronger, why couldn't the Halfling outwit the Ogre by say kicking the table in such a way to gain him the advantage?
throw sand in the dudes eye and win
cheat
Cheers,
J.
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gideon_thorne
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jman5000 wrote:
which brings up another question. Why can't a str prime be opposed by say an INT prime roll?
Take the above Arm Wrestling example. Suppose the Ogre is stronger, why couldn't the Halfling outwit the Ogre by say kicking the table in such a way to gain him the advantage?
throw sand in the dudes eye and win
cheat
Cheers,
J.
Why even go that far? The 'knowledge' on how to apply strength would apply to this situation the same way my earlier example did.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven
Peter Bradley
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach