Spontaneous casting using the SIEGE engine rules

Birthright · Post by **Birthright** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:42 pm

This has probably been posted before, but it occurred to me that the SIEGE engine could quite easily be used for spontaneous casting "checks":

Add the following special ability to Wizards, Illusionists, Clerics and Druids:

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Spontaneous Casting ([Intelligence/Wisdom]): By making a successful attribute check, the [spell-caster] can convert the [divine/arcane] energy of any 'prepared' spell into another spell of the same level or lower that they would normally be allowed to prepare. A failed check indicates that the caster loses the prepared spell, wasting the [divine/arcane] energy in the process.

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The caster would add their class level as normal and the challenge class would be the spell level (maybe twice the spell level to stop high level casters using the ability too easily - spontaneous casting should be a tricky proposition).

Too powerful?

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:10 am

You've never read my house rules when I've posted it.

Wizards:

SIEGE checks can be used to alter spells being cast. A SIEGE check can be made to change the energy type of a spell. For example, to change a fireball to a electric ball, ice ball, etc... you make a TN 12 check + your level to beat a CL = to the level of the spell. So to change the fireball to ice would be a CL 3, so beat TN 15.

Similiar checks can be done to maximize damage, CL spell level +3

To double range, CL spell level +3

To increase number of targets effected, CL spell level +3 per additional target (example spell, Charm Person to effect two people instead of one)

Failure, in all cases, loses you the spell. Roll a natural 1 and pray for survival if it causes damage.

RUNEMARKS:

Are a rune based wizard. Plus everything class related is based off of their Wisdom, not intelligence.

Why? Because rune magic is literally based on word fragments of the "Words of Creation". So rune magic, and the fragments of the words of power used, are the ultimate source of all powers, divine and arcane. So they are treated as Divine, but might be able to use arcane items. Arcane item use is explained later.

Advantages: You only need to have your rune in hand to cast the spell and be able to speak the word of power associated with that spell. So all spells are verbal and material only, with the only material being the spell specific runestone.

So Runemarks can be tied up, but as long as they have the runestone in their hands, and can speak, they can cast the spell. If they do a successful SIEGE check CL=spell level +4 they can cast the spell by will alone. The runestone is still required to be in hand. So even gagged they can still cast a spell if the SIEGE check is successful. Wizards can do this, but to do it bound and gagged would be a CL=spell level +8 to do so.

Runestones are made out of expensive materials, but are reuseable. Runestones cost 25 GP for first level, 35 GP for second level, 50 GP for third level, and 100 GP for levels 4 to 6, then 50 GP per level for levels 7 to 9 (350 GP to 450 GP per spell), with certain price exceptions for spells like Wish, etc... Those costs will be double of what is in the PH, but the runestone is not consumed.

Biggest drawback: Unlike a mage losing a spellbook, if you lose your runestones you can't cast another spell until you make new runestones for the spells you know/have memorized.

Plus Runemark's cannot use Wizard or Illusionist magic items easily. They must make a SIEGE check versus TN 12 + level the item is made at to use it successfully. If they fail the SIEGE check they can never use that particular item until later. If they succeed they can use that particular item, or item power, from then on. Scrolls can never be used in this manner. Potions can be freely used like any other class. Fail the SIEGE check and they can never use that particular item, or item power, until they make another level to get another SIEGE check to try and figure it out.

Rune magic items:

Runemarks cannot cast arcane or divine classed scrolls, nor do they make scrolls. Runesticks are made in place of scrolls, but for all intents and purposes works just like a scroll. Costs of a runestick are twice that of normal scrolls, but otherwise is the same in terms of time to make them.

They use rods, staves, and wands (very similiar looking to runesticks), but they are all rune based, so called Rune Rods, Rune Staves, and Rune Wands. They can also make potions, but the container is used to empower the fluid inside, so rune potion containers are typically bigger than normal potion vials because of this.

Runemark Skills: Runemarks are very good at engraving and carving, as well as identifying metals and gemstones, since they are so crucial to the basics of making runestones and rune items. All checks, when related to runecasting and making rune items, are WIS based. Otherwise it will be related to DEX, or whatever stat the CK considers relevant.

SIEGE Checks:

As you probably guessed, I allow SIEGE checks to be used for a lot of things other than skills. They can be used by fighters to try and get extra attacks, to get an extra attack when you take an opponent down, to transfer points from your BtH to your damage roll, if you think of it, ask me if you can do it. If you have played 3E many of their feats are good ideas for SIEGE checks.

IMPORTANT: If you successfully use a SIEGE check frequently enough to perform a specific kind of action I will eventually, when I decide to do so, award it as a "signature move". This will mean that as long as your opponent is no more than 3 levels higher than you, or lower, you will not need to perform a SIEGE check to do the "signature move". You can have as many "signature moves" as I decide to award you with.
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Birthright · Post by **Birthright** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:24 am

Yes Treebore, I must admit that I only skimmed through you house rules when you've posted them before. I didn't notice that Runemarks can be used "spontaneously".

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:45 am

See? You did it again. You skipped the Wizard section, where they can change the type of spell energy, maximize damage, increase range, increase the number of targets, etc... all spontaneously with a SIEGE check.
The Runemark also has "spontaneous" effects they can attempt with SIEGE checks.
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Birthright · Post by **Birthright** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:00 am

Treebore wrote:
See? You did it again. You skipped the Wizard section, where they can change the type of spell energy, maximize damage, increase range, increase the number of targets, etc... all spontaneously with a SIEGE check.

Nope, this time I actually read it all!
What I meant by "spontaneous casting" is to completely change the spell that is cast. e.g. a prepared magic missile could become a charm person spell. Your text describes changing the type of energy, damage, range and area of effect for (I assume, since you didn't say otherwise) the same spell.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:06 am

Seems someone has not recalled my thesis on "metamagic" a while ago.

It had all of that, and more. But, whatever is easier, if you wanna use it, is good by me.

Birthright · Post by **Birthright** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:25 am

serleran wrote:
Seems someone has not recalled my thesis on "metamagic" a while ago. It had all of that, and more. But, whatever is easier, if you wanna use it, is good by me.

Yes, I must admit I don't read all the threads that get posted around here.
What CC would/did you use for the SIEGE check to cast spontaneously?

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:46 am

To switch a spell from one to another, I set it at a difficulty of 8, at base, reduced if it was "similar effect" (ie, if you turned a fireball into a burning hands) to 4 only. The penalty for failure was 1d4 Con loss, non-treatable by magic, and the loss of further spellcasting in the day.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 4:18 am

See I had seen your write up Serl.

One, I was already doing what I was doing. Two, your way added more "book keeping" then I wanted to add. Failure and loss of spell was enough for me.

As for changing it to another spell, I do that the same way. Level of the spell involved +3, if I allow it to even be attempted in the first place.

One thing I am noticing with the casters, now that I have been playing with casters in the 10th to 14th level, is that it becomes easier and easier for them to do the low level spells, such as magic missile and fireball.

I am not sure if I like that yet. In a lot of ways its too powerful for C&C.
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Birthright · Post by **Birthright** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:43 am

Treebore wrote:
One thing I am noticing with the casters, now that I have been playing with casters in the 10th to 14th level, is that it becomes easier and easier for them to do the low level spells, such as magic missile and fireball.

I am not sure if I like that yet. In a lot of ways its too powerful for C&C.

How about changing the CL to TWICE the spell level instead of spell level +3.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:15 am

Birthright wrote:
How about changing the CC to TWICE the spell level instead of spell level +3.

Because in the case of magic missile and fireball it would keep it the same or even lower.

As I do it magic missile would be CC 4 and fireball CC 6.

Maybe if I made it twice the level + 2 it would delay it enough to be acceptable to me. That would still be CC 4 with Magic Missile, but Fireball would be CC 8.

Still not sure yet. I still feel the need to weigh that against the fact it took two years of regular playing to get to this level of power. So the argument that they have earned it is one I am willing to agree with.

Since they are only allowed to add their level they still have approximately a 40% chance of failure with Fireball (TN is 18, so they fail on a 8 or less). So maybe my real problem is that they succeed too often due to good rolls.
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Birthright · Post by **Birthright** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:52 am

I just ran some numbers and I think I like CL = spell level*3 the best. This makes the higher spell levels very difficult to spontaneously cast, whilst keeping the lower level spells as a significant challenge.

Using CL=spell level*3 means that spontaneous casting doesn't become 'automatic' for 1st level spells until the caster reaches 14th level, 2nd level spells at 17th level, and 3rd level spells at 20th level. Since our group have never even played beyond even 10th level, I don't see this as too much of a problem.

rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:26 pm

I would allow spontaneous casting of spells of the same level only, at a CL equal to the level of the spell. After all, if the check fails, the spell slot is wasted, so there is no need to unduly penalise the spellcaster.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:36 pm

Depends, really, what flavor you're going for. If you want magic to be powerful, yet, unwieldy, you use something that causes drawbacks and is hard to use (a la Warhammer or Conan.) If you want it to be something easily mastered, you just allow it. Or, you can make it a bit of both, and just say: at 9th level you can spontaneously cast 0-1st level spells, improving by 1 spell level every 6 levels. No need for drawbacks or checks in a case like that, but, there is the inherent "oh my god I have to be 15th level?!"

Nelzie · Post by **Nelzie** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:08 pm

I wrote up something to do that for a "Harry Potter/Dresden Files" inspired set of tweaks to run an All Wizard campaign.

Here's a link to the best, currently online, version of those rules:
http://forum.nelzie.net/index.php?topic=37.0

There's more changes than what you are looking to emulate though.

I have also worked up some rules for "Maximizing" spells that works well for our table.
Maximize Spell - The challenge level is based upon the Spell Level, plus the number of dice that the caster wishes to Maximize the damage on. For example, a 6th Level Wizard wants to maximize 3 Dice out of 6 for the Fireball spell she is going to cast. Fireball is a 3rd Level Spell, 3 Dice are to be maximized for a total Challenge Level of +6. Failure means that all 6 Dice are tossed and the three highest dice are counted only as half what they roll. (If all ones are rolled, than the Fireball only does 3 points of damage.)[/b]
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CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:23 pm

Birthright wrote:
Yes, I must admit I don't read all the threads that get posted around here.
What CC would/did you use for the SIEGE check to cast spontaneously?

I would add the spell levels together. Trading out a first level spell for another first level would be two.

Then add more if they took damage that round they are trading spells around in.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:34 pm

Definitely good ideas, Nelzie, C.Rock, etc... Ideas for me to definitely reference while I contemplate what flavor I want to go for.

Perhaps the hardest thing, for me, is to contmeplate what I want to do without adding too much book keeping.
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