Troll Lord Games

Hi all, I am new to C&C and to the boards, and as I am reading back through some old posts and reading over the PHB I have a question...

In 3x, and many other games, they have the defined skills and traitrs/feats/etc. listings, but obviously C&C does not. Sure, classes have their specific abilities.

When it comes to wanting to do SKILL-oriented things, all you need to have is allow a SIEGE check, right? Say a group of heroes wants to try to sneak through the woods to try and ambush a pair of sentrys some bandits have posted? Rangers and Rogues have sneak oriented abilities, so they add their level and attribute for the check, but what about everyone else? Can they make the same roll? It seems that a Ranger could NOT have a Prime attribute for that task, and another character could, and even with the class level added in, that Prime/Secondary difference would make a "Primary Fighter" (for example) have a equal to better chance then the "Secondary Ranger", despite the the fact that the Ranger is specialized in the ability. (And then there's to account for armor, but obviously that can simply adjust the player's roll, some.)

What about knowledge? Just have anyone make a SEIGE roll based on Intelligence?

I have seen some folks talk about making SIEGE checks to emulate FEATS and that sounds neat, but at the same time, how do you keep doing such things from taxing up the game and being (at least somewhat) balancing?

I like that C&C is simplified, I guess I am just re-organizing my brain-pan for a looser game, and I want to get theme and advise to make sure that I am giving my players all they deserve, giving C&C all the freedom of play it deserves and yet not "over due it" if you know what I mean...

THANKS!

See pages 110-112 in the Players handbook. That covers most of what your asking. ^_^

When it comes down to class abilities vs non class abilities, a class will always improve whereas a class without the ability is stuck at a given level of skill even if initially naturally good in the beginning.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Skills are simulated through SEIGE attribute checks.

At first level, a fighter with Dex as a prime will likely sneak around the woods better than a ranger of the same level that doesn't have Dex as a prime.

Think of it as the fighters abundant natural talent trumping the ranger's beginner level skill.

In time, the ranger will outpace the fighter due to the fact that he can also add his level to ranger class ability checks, while the fighter cannot.

For knowledge, I use Int checks, occasionally modified by the character's background. A fighter might get a bonus for tactics or military history, while a wizard would know more about magic.

If that si too abstract for you there are any number of house rules you can adapt to cover it.

IT can be as simple as "select 10 skills" and have them improve with the class level.

Or you can lift the 3E skills system in its entirety, if you want.

Still, before you write it off, give it a try as written. IT actually "does the job", but you'll still have the complaints of, "But I want my wizard, Bard, fighter to be as good as a thief at moving silently."

So thats why I personally went with a "pick 10" approach. Then, when they complain, I can say, "Thats your fault. You didn't pick it."

I also have a system made up where they can learn more skills in game, but it requires down time and expenditure of gold, but I like it because it gives a sense of realism to the character, what they know, and how they know it.

So try it by the book (btb), but don't be afraid to change it into something you like better.

For a number of us C&C is the rules base we use for creating the perfect game for our individual tastes.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

Skills are also covered in the CZ material, if'n one was inclined to like to implement something like said abilities.

Me, I just stopped caring. Makes it easier to just have fun.

Treebore wrote:
Still, before you write it off, give it a try as written. IT actually "does the job", but you'll still have the complaints of, "But I want my wizard, Bard, fighter to be as good as a thief at moving silently."

Oh, I in no way want to write-it-off, which was why I posted here for opinions and ideas and thoughts.

Thanks all...

Please feel free to post on how you guys do things, or how you have seen the system in action, any and all examples can inspire others to greater gaming!

*smiles* Here, Ill save everyone a lot of retyping:
http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames
http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames
http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames
http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

That should serve as a start.

If you have any more questions after reading all the above anal bickering,(tongue in cheek) feel free to post them.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Hi, FCWESEL. Welcome to the boards.
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The Rock says ...

Know your roll!

I too am new to C&C but I found the skills stuff for Castle Zagyg similar to how I was going to house rule it.

You buy these skills as an option with experience points.

As for the player that wants a mage to move as silent as a thief my answer would be, 'Then play a thief'.
I am a firefighter by trade. I don't expect to program computers as well as a computer programmer, nor do I expect the programmer to know the best way to initial attack a going fire.

If I did I would be told to go back to school and take computer programming.

There are many things folks want.

My mother had an expression about wanting in one hand and pooping in the other and finding which one filled up the fastest. i bet you could guess.
I want: I do: I get...folks just need to start doing and maybe they will start getting.

I like the CZ rules on skills, but keep it optional. I plan to try the btb siege before introducing anything additional though.

Yet if that does not satisfy I can implement the skills part.

That way if a mage really really wants to be as silent as a thief then they now have a vehicle by which they can do before they get.

Joe wrote:
As for the player that wants a mage to move as silent as a thief my answer would be, 'Then play a thief'.

Quite true. But perhaps think of it another way. Sometimes a party member is down who has a true vocation ad a given thing. Yet, someone with a 'knack' in general might, just, get lucky every once in a while, when needed, and pull off a rare bit of chance.

"The thief is unconscious, what do you do?"

"My character is clever with his hands." (so speaks the mage or illusionist who must need have clever hands as part of their trade) "Let me try and see if I can get the lock open?"

Its very possible that a character with a dex prime might just get lucky and some how stumble across the right combination of fiddle faddle that a thief would know by training.

I'm no thief, but I got lucky and picked the lock to my own house when I forgot my keys one time.

A siege engine check doesn't have to fully replace the abilities of another character. It can simply be a great plot device to move things along in those turning point encounters.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley