Character Creation Methodoligy :-)

[Wulfgarn]

Yah well- it got you to look didn't it !
Anyway - C&C's standered system of rolling characters does not produce characters of heroic disposistion and I thought I would dig around and see what I could find.

Well it struck me at once that there was a system that made a heck of alot of sense, and while not perfect it is very effective and with a little bit of rewritting and balancing could really work

This comes from the Unearthed Arcana (1st edition)

Obviously it would be a good Idead to rebalance the number of dice. - the first thing I would do with it is come up with a total number of d6's to be allowed, then use that total as a basis to divide up the number of dice per ability score. The Tables above range from 37-42 d6. (that is Sans Comliness)

So if we take a base of 3d6 for each ability Score, that gives us a minimum 18d6.

The Question is do we build the ability score rolling in as a way to balance Under powered classes? Or do we make it a set dice pool for all the Classes to draw from, or do what makes the best sense?

For instance if we took and set the dice pool for each Class at 30 d6 giving us a base line of 5d6 for each ability score roll.

So a Fighter might look something like this

Fighter Str 8 Dex 5 Con 7 Int 4 Wis 3 Cha 3

Now lets look at a Non Human

Dwarf Str 6 Dex 4 Con 9 Int 4 Wis 4 Cha 3

Another take on this style of generation san be looked at by way of what Prime Abilities have been choosen.

I am also considering developing A table for rolling attributes based on the race of the individual- this would be for non humans as Humans would need to use the table that corresponds to thier Class. Non-humans however would use a seperate table based on thier race.

My wife needs the computer - so Ill need to finish these thoughts and others later

[serleran]

Or, you could just stop caring and say "write down whatever you want, as long as its between X and Y" since the attribute scores, really, don't mean a helluva lot. Prime and level matter more.

[moriarty777]

I agree with you Wulfgarn -- When I run my games, I rather have my players play with characters with stats befitting a hero.

However, what I've found to work quite well is this:

Roll 4d6 and drop the lowest UNLESS it is a one. This will give characters with stats that range from 4 to an outstanding (and improbable) 19. I also allow the players to arrange these numbers they roll up as they wish.

It does raise the overall average of the stats to a few points higher than the norm but doesn't create something overly ridiculous either.

M
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[Alcahaelas]

My method is this:

1. Player decides which class they wish to play before rolling attributes.

2. Have the player roll 4d6, discarding the lowest, in order for STR, DEX, CON, INT, WIS and CHA. Once they have finished rolling, I generally let them reroll any score of 6 or below unless they have two or more other attributes that are exceptional (16+), in which case they are stuck with the low score and can only increase it via step 4, below. If the player has two or more scores of 6 or below I generally allow them to start the process over with fresh rolls--though they can choose to keep their rolls if they so desire (for instance, they may have two scores of 6 or below but have three others of 17+; rare indeed but it can happen).

3. After the initial attribute rolls are completed, the player may switch one attribute score with another score.

4. After the attribute switch (if the option is taken), I have the player roll a d4. The result is the number of extra points the they can assign to any attribute(s), with no single attribute score going above 18.

5. Apply racial modifiers, if any.

Example: Player "Joe" wants to create a human fighter. He takes his 4d6 and rolls his attributes in order. His results are:

STR - 9

DEX - 14

CON - 12

INT - 17

WIS - 10

CHA - 11

Next, he decides to switch his STR score with his INT score to bolster his muscular manliness. Then he rolls a d4 and gets a 3 -- this gives him three extra points to assign to any attribute(s). In this case he decides to put one each on STR, DEX and CON. His adjusted scores are:

STR - 18

DEX - 15

CON - 13

INT - 9

WIS - 10

CHA - 11

No racial modifiers to apply ... viola, a hero is born!
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gideon_thorne wrote:
There are lots of explanations that a clever CK can use to bullshit any roll.

[CharlieRock]

I just use 3d6. Instead of doing all the roll 8 times and take the highest three unless you yahtzeed with 1s and then you go to jail without passing go etc. ... just pick them. Your gonna end up rolling and making systems until you get whatever you had in mind anyway.
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The Rock says ...

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[rabindranath72]

I use the roster of scores from the Mentzer Basic D&D:

Humans: 17, 16, 14, 11, 9, 8

Demihumans: 16, 14, 11, 9, 9, 7 (+ racial modifiers)

It is fast, and it works very well.

[Yamo]

I just have the players pick whatever they want with the implicit understanding that I won't allow more than one or two really high scores and expect at least one or two below average ones.

[BASH MAN]

serleran wrote:
Or, you could just stop caring and say "write down whatever you want, as long as its between X and Y" since the attribute scores, really, don't mean a helluva lot. Prime and level matter more.

Not in combat. Stats affect AC, to hit, damage. Primes do not. This is why in a C&C game I once played a rogue... with an 18 STR and 17 CON, 16 Dex, and all the other stats don't even remember. Made Dex, Wis, and Int my primes (for class abilities) and hoped I never had to roll a CHA save.
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[Alcahaelas]

serleran wrote:
Or, you could just stop caring and say "write down whatever you want, as long as its between X and Y" since the attribute scores, really, don't mean a helluva lot. Prime and level matter more.

I suppose it depends on how your players roleplay. I would think that a character who's stuck with, say, a low WIS or CHA would be somewhat different (and entertaining) than generic HERO with stats in all the right places.

Mechanically it may not make a huge difference but spiritually (not religiously, but spirit of the game and of roleplaying) it matters quite a bit.
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gideon_thorne wrote:
There are lots of explanations that a clever CK can use to bullshit any roll.

[gideon_thorne]

Depending on the players, I usually stick with a 3d6 or 4d6 (drop lowest) method and let them put the scores wherever they want.

I've seen every kind of attribute spread under the sun. But the point of having random dice rolls is precisely to generate results one can't always predict.

People have a wide range of capability, restricting the die rolls to fit some arbitrary standard of 'fairness' or 'balance' rather defeats the purpose random die rolls in the first place.

Ive had characters with not a single score above 12 and some where their stats are near perfect 18's. Play with the dice fate dealt you, I say. Its up to the player to make the numbers mean something, not the mechanics.
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Peter Bradley

[Treebore]

I'm with Serleran.

If they have to have a dice roll method I use the 4d6 re roll 1's and 2's method in my house rules document.
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[Alcahaelas]

As long as it works for your campaign then it's all good.
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gideon_thorne wrote:
There are lots of explanations that a clever CK can use to bullshit any roll.

[serleran]

Quote:
Stats affect AC, to hit, damage.

So?

A little +3 here or there doesn't mean a whole lot when all you can do is attack one of the 10 encountered, and they're out of reach of your big +3 damage... besides, not every attributes means a damn thing in combat, so saying they are "important" is only half-right. In fact, its only a third right, since only two attributes even matter in combat - Strength and Dexterity. And, of those, only Strength means anything more than a single bonus (that is, it has two effects and not one.) So, attributes, on the whole, are nearly meaningless in combat.... might as well just have one stat for combat called Combat and be done with it.

Every combat is different, and the situations are different. Sometimes those bonuses might be awesome, and others they just might be useless.

The bonuses really only mean something when they are used - a good CK fluctuates the use and gives and takes away... you don't cater to your player's strengths - you cater to their weaknesses so "winning" means "winning."

[Omote]

Well, I'll have to disagree with Serleran on this one a bit. Players typically love attributes. Attribute numbers by themselve can generate a a whole lot of roleplaying opportunities in one character. Many C&C players are from the old days who knew that attribute numbers could be important and learned to love to the roleplay of the raw numbers.

I think attribute numbers are an important aspect to much more then just game mechanics.

That being said, I use the standard 3d6 method for generating attributes. I let the players roll as many sets of numbers as they are comfortable with. They can roll until they're blue in the. Matter of fact, I think players generally like to roll numbers. However in my home games I have numerous ways to improve attribute numbers.

Good gaming!

-O
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[Matthew]

I agree with Omote on this. Attribute Numbers do matter to some degree, but removing them from the game would also be of little harm.

I use 4D6, drop the lowest die. Roll six times and assign as preferred. I also allow the reduction one or more Attributes by 2 to increase another by 1. However, depending on what kind of game, I impose minimum and maximums on all of this. Conventionally, I don't allow any Attribute to be reduced lower than 10 or increased higher than 16. I also tend to to enforce minimum and maximum 'yields'. No net bonuses higher than +9 or lower than +4, usually.

I rarely have to enforce any of the above and I'm open to negotiation.
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[Harry Joy]

I agree with serleran, CharlieRock, gideon_thorne, Treebore, Omote, and Matthew.

[serleran]

I never said there was no point in rolling them; that is purely gamist. But, there is no point in not allowing them to just pick, either, since, in the whole, they don't really make your character... they just give, some, an idea of that character, which is really all they do. For example:

If I roll a 3 Strength and a 16 Dexterity, I can pretty easily picture that character, sucky as he is. Same if I have a bunch of divergence in attributes (which all of these alternate methods bypass, by the way, in hopes of having every stat equally impressive.) However, if the character is plain average (9-12 in everything) there's a huge field of openness for that PC to be developed... unlike if there is for having 18s in everything - that's pretty godlike, really.

Personality is secondary to this, of course, but the attributes, solely, determine "quirks" of the PC, which often are the foundation of the character, and if it was argued that was the reason to use them.... sure.

But, don't even try to say its mechanical. That's total BS.

[DangerDwarf]

serleran wrote:
In fact, its only a third right, since only two attributes even matter in combat - Strength and Dexterity.

Not exactly true.

Constitution, or more importantly, the HP bonus a good constitution can give is extremely relevant in combat. It could mean the difference between life or death.

Intelligence/Wisdom can grant extra spells to a mage or cleric. Increasing your spell casting ability by 50% at level 1 is nothing to sneeze at. An extra sleep spell is definitely handy in combat making intelligence a relevant stat in regards to combat.

Lets not forget saving throws. saving throws happen in combat with regularity which makes all stats combat relevant. That extra bonus a high stat gives can offset the fact that the caster is a higher level then you. Again, extremely relevant in combat.

Then there is the whole SIEGE engine process and how it can be used in combat. Wanna forfeit a move and study your opponent during combat? Make a wisdom SIEGE check, maybe you'll get some insight into his upcoming attack, be more prepared to deflect it and gain a small AC bonus that round. Combat with the goblins wearing your party down? The goblins look weary too? Wanna try and intimidate them into fleeing? Make a STR or CHASIEGE check (depending on what you are doing to intimidate them) who knows, it just might break their will to fight.

So yeah, maybe if you just do a back and forth slug fest, Str and Dex are the only relevant attributes in combat. Not in my games though, any stat can come into play on any given round.

[serleran]

Quote:
Constitution, or more importantly, the HP bonus a good constitution can give is extremely relevant in combat. It could mean the difference between life or death.

Except that Constitution does not add those HP in combat, alone, or in itself. It adds them for every function that HP has, such as non-combat situations (starvation, fatigue, drowning...) so it is, per force, like all non-combat-only uses, partially combat oriented. So, it gets a half point. Had Constitution had some impact on the amount of damage suffered, it would have a decided combat function, or even if it was the basis for the number of rounds one can fight before penalty, then, again, combat-oriented... but, HP are an amalgam, and Constitution is one of its constituents, not the whole thing.

Quote:
Intelligence/Wisdom can grant extra spells to a mage or cleric. Increasing your spell casting ability by 50% at level 1 is nothing to sneeze at. An extra sleep spell is definitely handy in combat making intelligence a relevant stat in regards to combat.

If one opts for combat spells, perhaps, but these are situational as I said before, and there are only four classes that benefit from it, so it is not a generally useful combat stat. A barbarian with an 18 Intelligence and 18 Wisdom gets nothing (save the normal bonuses when relevant) from it, so, it too, earns a very partial point in certain circumstances.

Quote:
Lets not forget saving throws. saving throws happen in combat with regularity which makes all stats combat relevant. That extra bonus a high stat gives can offset the fact that the caster is a higher level then you. Again, extremely relevant in combat.

Saving throws are by nature situational. Some are far more common than others, simply by the nature of the game and its assumptions. Strength saves, Dexterity saves, and Constitution saves are the most prevalent at low levels, with those of a mental nature coming in at higher levels when magic is more available (usually, due to the types of monsters encountered and the abilities possessed by those creatures.) If a CK is tweaking rules (say, allowing a Dexterity save to avoid a paralysis) then this would make those things more useful.. but simply because it can be used doesn't mean it is always used. Also, there are numerous effects that don't have saves, or where all a save does is mitigate the results in some way; this is useful, sure, but not the end-all of combat (unless your CK is using TPK material.)

Quote:
Then there is the whole SIEGE engine process and how it can be used in combat.

Level and Prime are more important than your bonus to X. As is "is this a class or racial ability?" If it is not, it does not matter if you have a +48957984320 and is level 398246326... if you aren't "trained to do it" you can never be better than the guy who gets -837643829746726 but is 1st level. Ever. That is the rule. So, SIEGE all you want, but remember that little fact. Attributes help "balance" the difference; they cannot overcome it. This makes the actual value rather unimportant.

Strength and Dexterity are the only attributes that have permanence in combat. Both add to the chance to hit, and combat is, well, simply put, trying to hit someone else for purposes of killing them. Dex has the advantage that AC (which can only be used when something is trying to hit you) is a combat thing, modified by Dexterity. Damage, which is only a combat thing (since you can't do it unless you hit something) is modified by Strength (usually, so its partially effective.)

[DangerDwarf]

serleran wrote:
Except that Constitution does not add those HP in combat, alone, or in itself. It adds them for every function that HP has, such as non-combat situations (starvation, fatigue, drowning...) so it is, per force, like all non-combat-only uses, partially combat oriented.

Just as Strength and Dexterity don't only have uses in combat alone. They too are only partially combat oriented.

serleran wrote:
A barbarian with an 18 Intelligence and 18 Wisdom gets nothing (save the normal bonuses when relevant) from it, so, it too, earns a very partial point in certain circumstances.

And a character with a 10 Dex and 10 Str get no use from either of those stats for combat. Again, situational.

Quote:
Lets not forget saving throws. saving throws happen in combat with regularity which makes all stats combat relevant. That extra bonus a high stat gives can offset the fact that the caster is a higher level then you. Again, extremely relevant in combat.

serleran wrote:
Saving throws are by nature situational.

Very true. But in regards to the original quote of Str and Dex being the only relevant combat stats, even situational does matter.

serleran wrote:
Level and Prime are more important than your bonus to X.

True, but it has no relevance to the discussion at hand. It is not about levels or primes. It is about using the SIEGE engine and stats other than Str or Dex in combat. I can think of dozens of situations in my games where stats other than Str or Dex where used in combat for one effect or another. Some where successful, some where not but they where used in combat.

serleran wrote:
Strength and Dexterity are the only attributes that have permanence in combat.

Except for when combatants are trading pop shots with bows across a chasm through a combat. Str is right out then.

Or those two wizards dueling. Spell for spell, best wizbanger wins.

What about those two fighters trading blowsin a swamp, mired down in the muck,both losing their dex bonus?

Sure, Dex and Str might see more usage but they are by no means a guarantee, nor are they the only useful attributes for combat.

There are no absolutes.

[Alcahaelas]

Hmm...seems like a circular argument going on here. As with many arguments, a point near the center is generally closer to the truth. The attributes do matter for game mechanics to a certain extent and they also lend towards roleplaying a character, based on the scores. There is more flexibility in a rules-lite game so perhaps the attributes are not as significant as with a mechanically more refined/defined game--but they do not lose significance to the point of dismissal.
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gideon_thorne wrote:
There are lots of explanations that a clever CK can use to bullshit any roll.

[gideon_thorne]

*chuckles* Every 'argument' on these boards is circular. The more vocal just want everyone to go their way. Folks just like to argue. Better than whats on TV I suppose?
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Peter Bradley

[DangerDwarf]

gideon_thorne wrote:
*chuckles* Every 'argument' on these boards is circular. The more vocal just want everyone to go their way. Folks just like to argue. Better than whats on TV I suppose?

Yeah, the stuff that passess for "entertainment" on the TV these days sucks.

[Harry Joy]

gideon_thorne wrote:
*chuckles* Every 'argument' on these boards is circular. The more vocal just want everyone to go their way. Folks just like to argue. Better than whats on TV I suppose?

Circular? What do you mean, circular? I thought my position was very straight forward and sensible?

Right bastard, you are. Trying to pick a fight now, are we?

[gideon_thorne]

I never pick fights. They always pick me.
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[Harry Joy]

gideon_thorne wrote:
I never pick fights. They always pick me.

That's it. I'm not taking anymore of this. I demand satisfaction. Meet me at dawn. Twenty paces. Pick your dice well. I hope you have a high tolerance for D4.

[gideon_thorne]

Harry Joy wrote:
That's it. I'm not taking anymore of this. I demand satisfaction. Meet me at dawn. Twenty paces. Pick your dice well. I hope you have a high tolerance for D4.

I have a high tolerance for WD-40.. does that work?
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Peter Bradley

[CharlieRock]

DangerDwarf wrote:
Yeah, the stuff that passess for "entertainment" on the TV these days sucks.

What is this TV you speak of?

(mine was cut off in '04. LoL)
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The Rock says ...

Know your roll!

[Harry Joy]

gideon_thorne wrote:
I have a high tolerance for WD-40.. does that work?

Coward. I was there at the crack of dawn. Where were you? Don't think you can squeak out of this, WD40 won't help you that much, slick.

[gideon_thorne]

Harry Joy wrote:
Coward. I was there at the crack of dawn. Where were you? Don't think you can squeak out of this, WD40 won't help you that much, slick.

Same place I usually am at dawn. Asleep, like sensible people ought to be.
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Peter Bradley