Siege-Skills-Proficiencies houserule for discussion

[Turanil]

I have come with this but not playtested it. Here is what I think of doing for Siege checks, and skill-proficiencies.
1) Any task belongs to one of the following 6 categories of CL: Easy, Average, Difficult, Very Difficult, Overwhelming, Almost Impossible*. However, a Siege check is required only when the task is determined (by the CK) as being "difficult" or worse. An "easy" or "average" task usually doesn't require a check, where PC just need to take time, retry and what not. The only instance where a check for "easy" or "average" tasks will be required will be when the characters are in hurry, combat, wounded, and other inappropriate circumstances. Then, these CL receive the following modifiers to the check: Easy= +10, Average= +5, Difficult= 0, Very Difficult= -5, Overwhelming= -10, Almost Impossible=-15.
2) Characters can attempt to do anything they want, but as amateurs. It first means that when not having a class skill or proficiency (see thereafter), they only add HALF their level (rounded down) to the check. Then, they are limited in what they can do; for examples: Climb: where a rogue would climb without leaving obvious tracks, untrained characters would break things, make noise, leave obvious tracks, etc. Healing: with the proficiency one would give back a few hit-points, but untrained a character would nly be able to stop wounds from bleeding. Otherwise, characters add their full level only to class-skill checks and saving throws.
3)Characters gain 1 proficiency slot per level. Proficiencies come from AD&D 2e, including weapon-proficiencies (so a mage could wield a short sword for example), non-weapon proficiencies, and probably a few simple d20 feats turned into proficiencies (such as Improved Initiative, Toughness, Skill Focus, etc.). Note that depending on the proficiency or the group it belongs to and whether the PC has access to this group, a proficiency may cost more than 1 prof. slot. When a non-weapon proficiency is similar to a skill, such as Healing, Gem-Cutting, Seamanship, etc., it becomes a sort of secondary skill, to which the character adds his full level when making Siege checks.

So, what do you think?

[* I have been thinking of ordering a custom dice to Q-Workshop for random determination of CL, but unfortunately it's very expensive.]
_________________
Homebrews Wiki a list of campaign settings on the web.

[Treebore]

It definitely looks worth testing out.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

[Harry Joy]

You lost me on #2. I was under the impression that a character could only add their class level to a roll for a class ability, or for something that could be assumed to be a class ability. That's the perk for having levels in a required class. Anyone else can try something they are not skilled in, but should not be able to add in their class level at all. Not even halfsies.

[Treebore]

Harry Joy wrote:
You lost me on #2. I was under the impression that a character could only add their class level to a roll for a class ability, or for something that could be assumed to be a class ability. That's the perk for having levels in a required class. Anyone else can try something they are not skilled in, but should not be able to add in their class level at all. Not even halfsies.

He is still doing that. He is just redefining it as getting to add half your levels instead of none. Which I can sort of buy into because a lot of skills interrelate AND just watching other people do things gives you a fundamental idea of how to perform certain other skills you yourself have never done.

So I guess you can say by going half levels instead of no levels you can look at it as "exposure" and "similarity" to other skill sets gives you a better "background knowledge" on which to try things you've never been trained in.

I've done something like this many times in my life. I never operated a tractor with a back hoe on it. But after watching my grandfather and father do it back when I was a teenager, and due to driving cars and forklifts, I stepped up on one, and within five minutes I was set up and dug up a 15 foot square hole that was ten feet deep. Just a few weeks ago, within "lines", and I didn't break them.

I rewired my old home, including taking out old breaker boxes and putting in new ones, rerouted all of the wiring in the house, and got high praise from the zoning inspector. Who asked where I got my electrician training. He was shocked when I told him I never worked as an electrician, just in electronics in the Navy.

My brother worked in construction for years. I had torn up my bathroom floor and ripped out all the old water and drainage piping. I then redid it all, including sodering, and my brothyer was blown away when we turned on the water and there were no leaks. He asked me where I learned to do this and I said I had never done it before, but I soddered wiring on boards in the Navy. Then he was blown away by how professionally I cut and laid my new bathroom floor. My first time ever.

Then we rehung dry wall in that bathroom and he asked me how I knew how to do that. He was pleased when I told him from watching him do his job.

I've laid down new carpet, including 1 inch pad, with no wrinkles, perfectly tight. First time. Just from watching people and DIY shows for years, and knowing the tools and techniques from doing so.

I've replaced radiators, alternators, redone breaks, etc... all from work I had done before on Submarines and vague memories of watching my uncle do similiar work back when he owned a garage. When I was a teenager. Over 20 years ago.

The only thing that repeatedly kicks my butt is garbage disposal units. Those friggin mounting rings never come off easy.

So I can definitely buy into giving half levels just by assuming as you go through life and experience and see many things, you gain a solid enough understanding of many things to allow you to perform jobs and actions you have never done before.

Plus, how do you account for PC's never learning to climb, despite being helped dozens of times to do so by the thief?

Or to still not be a skilled rider after days, weeks, months riding around on them?

OR to not see or hear an ambush despite having survived dozens of them?

So I can see the logic and give the benefit of the doubt by going with this half levels idea.

In fact I already give my high level game the ability to listen for and see ambushes and attacks coming, simply because I figure with everything they have been through they would now be good at doing so, irregardless of their class.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

[Harry Joy]

Then where's the perk in having a class that grants something specifically as a skill? Every one can already make the roll, so now they will "almost" be as good as you?

The real life metaphor doesn't wash, and you surely know it. Digging one hole with a backhoe and wanting to add have your level to it would be laughable to someone who'd trained on that backhoe his whole life. Likewise, I've been climbing all sorts of things since I was a kid, trees, walls, cliffs, really high ladders. But I don't think I could climb even half as well as someone who'd been rappelling Mt. McKinley his whole life.

[Philotomy Jurament]

I don't see the need for an expanded skills/proficiencies system. My preference is to rely on the class/archetype system, and not dilute it with grafted-on skills systems. I just prefer D&D without a 'skills system;' I think such systems add more trouble than they're worth. The SIEGE engine is as detailed as I'd want to get, in that area.
_________________
http://www.philotomy.com
Lost City Campaign Log

[Turanil]

Harry Joy wrote:
You lost me on #2. I was under the impression that a character could only add their class level to a roll for a class ability, or for something that could be assumed to be a class ability. That's the perk for having levels in a required class. Anyone else can try something they are not skilled in, but should not be able to add in their class level at all. Not even halfsies.

In fact PHB rules* (at least as far as I understand them as they are not so clear), state that:

1) Any task gets a CL of 0 (the easiest) or higher, as determined by the CK.

2) Whenever one is to perform a task requiring an attribute check, he adds his level to the roll.

3) Anyone can attempt anything... EXCEPT if it is a class skill of another class, where they cannot attempt at all.

I don't like this for many reasons:

1) CL=0 is seen as the easiest CL, but without a Prime one only has a base 20% chance of succeeding his roll (17 or better on d20) at 1st level. Since CL are vaguely if at all defined, except 0 is the most easy, I don't see characters with non-prime often succeeding. This has led a poster declare that a PC must take Dex as one of his prime if he wants to succeed/survive.

2) Climb is a class skill of Rogues, so nobody else could attempt to climb a wall, cliff, tree, etc.? On the other hand since Healing or Swimming are not class skills of any class, anyone would add his level to it? (Note that nowhere it is stated about characters having ranks in things that would look related to their class, such as Knowledge Supernatural for a wizard, or Knowledge Religion for a cleric. Most CK and players assume it, but it's not an official rule.)

My system defines CLs, and gives better chance of success with non-primes. Anyone can attempt anything, without bothering to know if it steps upon another class' abilities. Nonetheless, it's not only half level added to the roll, but also amateurish/botched work, as one cannot do untrained what a professional can do. So, without Weaponsmithing as a skill, one would be able to create a serviceable yet ugly sword that could very well smooth or break a few uses later, only a professional (i.e.: with the relevant profciciency) would be able to create a true sword. Same with Pickpocket: only a thief will be able to do it discreetly; another PC may succeed with adding half level, but someone else may see him pick the pocket, and the victim may notice a few round later while the PC is still around, etc.

(* I have not read any Crusader magazine, where there may be new rules, or rules clarifications...)
_________________
Homebrews Wiki a list of campaign settings on the web.

[Treebore]

Harry Joy wrote:
Then where's the perk in having a class that grants something specifically as a skill? Every one can already make the roll, so now they will "almost" be as good as you?

The real life metaphor doesn't wash, and you surely know it. Digging one hole with a backhoe and wanting to add have your level to it would be laughable to someone who'd trained on that backhoe his whole life. Likewise, I've been climbing all sorts of things since I was a kid, trees, walls, cliffs, really high ladders. But I don't think I could climb even half as well as someone who'd been rappelling Mt. McKinley his whole life.

Whatever you want to believe, its for your game after all. I just know my Grandpa would have been pretty happy with how well I operated that back hoe, and he operated them pretty regular for over 50 years.

So we'll each believe what we want. Besides, half levels isn't that huge.

Plus I wouldn't do it the way he is, I would require it to be something they have attempted to do over and over again, such as the climbing, with the thief leading them. If you climb Mt. Mckinley 10 times under the guidance of a great climber, your going to be a darn climber/scaler of mountains after doing it.

So its very much a training and learning under fire situation, and I wouldn't deny the character the ability to learn such things just because its not in the rules.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames