House Rule: Three Saves

wolfpunk · Post by **wolfpunk** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:52 pm

I am toying with the notion of using the three saving throws that 3.5 uses.

I am thinking of adjusting it so that each class has at least 1 Prime Save.

For example, a Fighter would have Fortitude as a Prime Saving Throw. The difficulty for a fighter making a Fortitude saving throw would be 12+CL. The fighter would roll 1d20+Level+Attrbute to make the Save.

If the same fighter had to make a Reflex save the difficulty would be 18+CL. The The fighter would roll 1d20+half their Level (round down)+Attrbute to make the Save.

Some classes may have two Prime Saves, and the Monk would probably have three Prime Saves.

Has anyone else tried this? Are there glaringly obvious problems with a system like this?

csperkins1970 · Post by **csperkins1970** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:01 pm

It undercuts the importance of Primes a bit. A human character's BIG asset (when compared to demihumans) is the fact that he has three primes that effects ability checks, such as saving throws.

I don't think it would break the game but it would make humans a little less appealing (from a power-gamer standpoint).

wolfpunk · Post by **wolfpunk** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:20 pm

What if it was a tiered system.

Attribute is Prime, Save is Prime: 12+level+attribute.

Attribute is Prime, Save is not Prime: 18+level+attribute.

Attribute is not Prime, Save is Prime: 12+1/2 level+attribute.

Attribute is not Prime, Save is not Prime: 18+1/2 level+attribute.

Or is that just too complex?

csperkins1970 · Post by **csperkins1970** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:27 pm

wolfpunk wrote:
What if it was a tiered system.

Attribute is Prime, Save is Prime: 12+level+attribute.

Attribute is Prime, Save is not Prime: 18+level+attribute.

Attribute is not Prime, Save is Prime: 12+1/2 level+attribute.

Attribute is not Prime, Save is not Prime: 18+1/2 level+attribute.

Or is that just too complex?

What about this?

Each save is linked to two different ability scores.
FORT is linked to CON and STR
REF is linked to INT and DEX
WILL is linked to WIS and CHR

If both linked abilities are Prime the base is 12

If one linked ability is Prime the base is 15

If no linked ability is Prime the base is 18

That would work REALLY well... I think.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:29 pm

csperkins1970 wrote:
What about this?

Each save is linked to two different ability scores.
FORT is linked to CON and STR
REF is linked to INT and DEX
WILL is linked to WIS and CHR

If both linked abilities are Prime the base is 12

If one linked ability is Prime the base is 15

If no linked ability is Prime the base is 18

That would work REALLY well.

Hmmm. I must say this appeals to me the most. The "matrix" makes it pretty simple too.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:58 pm

I think your getting the same results that you would get with the 6 save category. Why change in the first place?
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:58 pm

csperkins1970 wrote:
What about this?

Each save is linked to two different ability scores.
FORT is linked to CON and STR
REF is linked to INT and DEX
WILL is linked to WIS and CHR

If both linked abilities are Prime the base is 12

If one linked ability is Prime the base is 15

If no linked ability is Prime the base is 18

That would work REALLY well... I think.

Now that is an excellent idea. A great way to d20 the saves while keeping the importance of the attributes. Would the attribute bonuses still add in as normal to the save?

-O
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:03 am

Or, go even easier...

M, P, or --

Joe Mac · Post by **Joe Mac** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:06 am

csperkins1970 wrote:
What about this?

Each save is linked to two different ability scores.
FORT is linked to CON and STR
REF is linked to INT and DEX
WILL is linked to WIS and CHR

If both linked abilities are Prime the base is 12

If one linked ability is Prime the base is 15

If no linked ability is Prime the base is 18

That would work REALLY well... I think.

Intriguing.

wolfpunk · Post by **wolfpunk** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:30 am

Looking back, I realize that my initial idea was based on the idea that saves are difficult to make in C&C. A human as best has a 50% chance of having a chance of making the save. Demi-humans have 33% chance of having a chance.

By reducing the number of save types, I was trying to increase the chance of having a chance to make a save. But I didn't really do that because I limited the level bonus.

So let me try this again.

Fortitude is Con based

Reflex is Dex based

Will is Wisdom based.

If the Save is Prime and the Attribute is Prime the challenge base is 10 and the player rolls d20+level+modifier.

If Save is not Prime but the Attribute is Prime the challenge base is 12 and the player rolls d20+level+modifier.

If the Save is Prime but the Attribute is not Prime the challenge base is 16 and the player rolls d20+level+modifier.

If the Save is not Prime and the Attribute is not Prime the challenge base is 18 and the player rolls d20+level+modifier.

So a human fighter could have Fortitude as a Prime Save for being a fighter an could choose to better improve their chance of making a Fortitude Save by choosing to make their Constitution Prime.

Or he could rely on his training, and put his Prime Attributes in Dexterity and/or Wisdom to bolster his other types of Saves.

Fizz · Post by **Fizz** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:01 pm

wolfpunk wrote:
Looking back, I realize that my initial idea was based on the idea that saves are difficult to make in C&C. A human as best has a 50% chance of having a chance of making the save. Demi-humans have 33% chance of having a chance.

Well, you're assuming that non-prime attributes never have a chance, which is incorrect. You always add your level to a saving throw, regardless of it being prime or not. So there are plenty of instances where a non-prime can be a viable save.

Your prime saves always have a better chance of course, but that doesn't make the others useless.

-Fizz

wolfpunk · Post by **wolfpunk** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:44 pm

In regards to adding your level, it seems to me that since you add the relevant level of the monster you are facing to the CL that it ends up being a relative wash if you are fighting an equal opponent.

So, opponents with effects that affect your non-Prime saves are going to likely require a 18 (+ or - your attribute modifier) or higher on a roll of d20 to resist them.

csperkins1970 · Post by **csperkins1970** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 5:24 pm

Omote wrote:
Now that is an excellent idea. A great way to d20 the saves while keeping the importance of the attributes. Would the attribute bonuses still add in as normal to the save?

-O

Hmmm... good point.

I wonder how much it would unbalance things to total the attribute mods for dual-attribute saves. In the C&C games I play, ability mods tend to be pretty low, so it wouldn't be much of an issue. As it is, I find saves to be a bit tough in C&C anyway.

Averaging the mods would work BUT it would be an untidy fix.

I'd lean towards allowing character to total the bonuses...

Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 2:06 am

csperkins1970 wrote:
Hmmm... good point.

I wonder how much it would unbalance things to total the attribute mods for dual-attribute saves. In the C&C games I play, ability mods tend to be pretty low, so it wouldn't be much of an issue. As it is, I find saves to be a bit tough in C&C anyway.

Averaging the mods would work BUT it would be an untidy fix.

I'd lean towards allowing character to total the bonuses...

I use this three save idea, and what we do is use the worst penalty and the best bonus, so a character with Intelligence 8 (-1) and Dexterity 13 (+1) has a net total of +0, whilst a character with Strength 16 (+2) and Constitution 15 (+1) has a net total of +2.
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csperkins1970 · Post by **csperkins1970** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 1:08 pm

Matthew wrote:
I use this three save idea, and what we do is use the worst penalty and the best bonus, so a character with Intelligence 8 (-1) and Dexterity 13 (+1) has a net total of +0, whilst a character with Strength 16 (+2) and Constitution 15 (+1) has a net total of +2.

NICE!!! I like. I'm still going to use the 6-save system but that's a clever work-around.

Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 2:54 pm

csperkins1970 wrote:
NICE!!! I like. I'm still going to use the 6-save system but that's a clever work-around.

Glad to share. I actually use the same method, when necessary, for task resolution [i.e. when it seems like more than one Attribute should be involved].
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House Rule: Three Saves

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