[HP] You Rolled Poorly

CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:35 am

This is an older houserule we used in other systems that we just added tonight to C&C:

You can opt to reroll your HP upon levelling up and take a -1 to the second roll. You can opt to reroll again and take a -2 on a third roll. You still get a minimum of one hit point, so if you botched seven rolls with a d8 then you end up with one.

This rewards higher hit dice character classes more then others. If you take a -3 to a d12 then you still have decent chances for good hit points (and this I have seen happen). But a -3 to d4 is only one hit point. Kind of buffers up the total HP for high HD classes.

Oh, you may not go back and take a previous roll. Like if you rolled (on a d8) a 3 initially, rerolled, and then rolled two 1s in a row your either at one hit point gained or rolling with a -3. You can't go back and take the three.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:04 am

Here is my way of making sure its not too easy to kill PC's:

Hit Points: Max Hp's at first level. d4 HD reroll 1's, d6 and d8 reroll all 1's and 2's, d10 and d12 reroll 1-3's. You can also ask me about "take the CK's roll" before you roll for your HP.

CK roll is I roll using the same guidelines as the player, but hide my roll. The Player then decides to either keep their roll or to take mine.

Like for instance Jorel rolled a 7, I rolled a 5, he wisely chose to keep his roll.

I think everyone knows its easy to kill PC's, so I do everything I can to make it harder.
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CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:09 am

Treebore wrote:
Here is my way of making sure its not too easy to kill PC's:

Hit Points: Max Hp's at first level. d4 HD reroll 1's, d6 and d8 reroll all 1's and 2's, d10 and d12 reroll 1-3's. You can also ask me about "take the CK's roll" before you roll for your HP.

CK roll is I roll using the same guidelines as the player, but hide my roll. The Player then decides to either keep their roll or to take mine.

Like for instance Jorel rolled a 7, I rolled a 5, he wisely chose to keep his roll.

I think everyone knows its easy to kill PC's, so I do everything I can to make it harder.

I've heard of Monty Haul DMing, but that is more accurate Monty Hall-ish HP rolling: "Do you take what you rolled or choose the die behind CK Screen #1"
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Philotomy Jurament · Post by **Philotomy Jurament** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:57 pm

Here's an interesting house-rule that has its roots in OD&D and Empire of the Petal Throne:

Every time the PC gains a level, he rolls ALL his hit dice (e.g. a 3rd level PC rolls all three dice, and when he advances to 4th he rolls all four dice). If the number rolled is less or equal to his current maximum hit points, he retains his current maximum (that is, hit points can never go down when you gain a level); otherwise, the number rolled is his new maximum hit points.

If the PC loses a level, he rolls all the hit dice for his new (lower) level. If the number rolled is greater than or equal to his current maximum hit points, he retains his current maximum (that is, hit points can never go up when you lose a level); otherwise, the number rolled is his new maximum hit points.

This has a couple of interesting effects. First, there is an averaging trend that is slightly weighted in favor of the PC. You're not stuck with the 1 you rolled at 2nd level. Chances are, your hit points will rise towards the mean. On the other hand, if you roll really well, you don't lose those rolls, since your hit points won't go down when you gain new levels. Second, it makes it really easy to handle level loss; you don't need to record every hit die roll you make over your "career." You just roll all your hit dice for the new level.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:57 pm

That is an interesting method.
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Aladar · Post by **Aladar** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:02 pm

That is an interesting idea. I may have to try it.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:06 pm

Here's what I've been tempted to try: If you roll a one on your HD, you roll again, but use the next lower die type. You do this until you stop rolling a one.

CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:18 pm

I rolled so low for hit points one time, I went back to my old level.
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Harry Joy · Post by **Harry Joy** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:50 am

I had a fighter once for whom I consistently rolled poorly for about seven or eight levels. The first time, the DM said "Hey, don't worry. Next time you'll roll better, and don't forget, you still have your CON bonus!"

Then he repeated that the next time, and the next, and the next. That poor fighter had HPs lower than the party WIZARD for pissakes. Oh, that's right, except for his CON bonus. Sometime like the sixth time that DM said that, I think I chucked some dice at him.

I don't mind rolling poorly. Shit happens. Not every character is going to be a Superman. Low HPs are as much a part of the game as high. But I've gotten to the point, quite seriously, that I want someone else to do my HP rolls for me.

And oh, btw, my current character hit Second Level a month ago. I rolled the hit points, and sure enough, I rolled a one. And Brutorz Bill, who is not the DM I referenced above, was kind enough to remind me to, yes, "Don't forget your CON bonus!"

Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:06 am

Heh, the dice can sometimes be harsh. I wouldn't be particularly adverse to having characters advance by the 'low average' [i.e. 4 on 1D8, 5 on 1D10, etc...], but have never actually needed to, as the average always seems to come up. The only roll I adjusted in the last long term AD&D Campaign I ran was for a Fighter character who joined late at Level 1 (when everybody else was level 3). He failed to observe the ritual prevalent in the group and rolled a 1. I told him he could reroll, but I would enforce that result at a later time. Lo and behold, he rolled an 8 and when 5th Level came ticking by a couple of years later, I told him he didn't need to roll... [My records indicate that his Hit Points were: 11, 19, 29, 38 and 40]
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Alcahaelas · Post by **Alcahaelas** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:22 am

In my campaign I simply count any roll that is less than half of maximum as half. So, say, on a d8, if you roll a 1-4 it's counted as a 4. d12, 1-6 is counted as a 6. Takes the edge off a bit of rolling really bad, but doesn't ensure monstrous HP since half the time you're going to only get half the max HP on your roll. Keeps the characters somewhat beefy without maxing them on HP. Seems to work OK.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:48 pm

It sucks to play low stat PC's, it sucks to have low HP's due to crappy roles. I run campaigns, so I don't want anyone playing a sucky character, so I make sure they don't. This game is about fun and enjoyment, so I guarantee my players will be happy with their PC stats and HP's.

High stats and HP do not "break" games, they improve character survival and player happiness. So that is what I do.

ITs the same reason I don't stab a knife in a players back and twist it when their character dies and I make them replace it with one that is one level lower than everyone else with pathetic starting equipment.

I could go on about other "house rules" I disagree with, but...
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CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:58 pm

Treebore wrote:
It sucks to play low stat PC's, it sucks to have low HP's due to crappy roles. I run campaigns, so I don't want anyone playing a sucky character, so I make sure they don't. This game is about fun and enjoyment, so I guarantee my players will be happy with their PC stats and HP's.

High stats and HP do not "break" games, they improve character survival and player happiness. So that is what I do.

ITs the same reason I don't stab a knife in a players back and twist it when their character dies and I make them replace it with one that is one level lower than everyone else with pathetic starting equipment.

I could go on about other "house rules" I disagree with, but...

Funny that you brought up the level down upon death rule. We havn't figured out how to fairly implement this since progression is far from level across classes. So we dropped it. Sort of evens out since with C&C we also dropped wealth by level. So ... you don't lose xp but you do lose all your stuff/gold.
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GameOgre · Post by **GameOgre** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:58 pm

One of the most fun characters I ever played was a worthless ball of crap stat wise.

He was a gnome fighter with a high stat of 9.

I didnt want to play him but my DM said" play him till he dies".

so I said Fine and then as soon as the game started I threw this little bugger into every fight I could find. I mean I would charge into the batle when he was down to 4 hp's with my spear held high and then pole vault into the middle of the fray screaming" GUGTO BAK OOIN" Translated it means kill me you blastards!.He just would not die. My DM at the time even rolled in front of everyone so it was nuts!

Ol Corm made it to 6th level before he was finally hacked down by a troll but to this day we all smile when we think about the many battles where he turned the tide with some crazy death incouraging stunt.

Let the dice fall as they may and play the character. Sometimes you might be real surprised at what you find.
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vegabond · Post by **vegabond** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:34 am

Kind of a side question about HP. Does anyone use HP by race instead of class? That would mean every playable race is a d8.

If anyone has tried it I would be interested in hearing how it worked.

jman5000 · Post by **jman5000** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:41 am

by the book baby!!! finishing up a one shot module where everything was by the book - including HP's. fun fun fun when the wizard has 2 hp's, the barbarian 4 and the rogue is the highest in the group
Cheers,

J.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:47 am

I prefer, to be honest, getting only 1d2 per level, regardless of class.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:49 am

GameOgre wrote:
One of the most fun characters I ever played was a worthless ball of crap stat wise.

He was a gnome fighter with a high stat of 9.

I didnt want to play him but my DM said" play him till he dies".

so I said Fine and then as soon as the game started I threw this little bugger into every fight I could find. I mean I would charge into the batle when he was down to 4 hp's with my spear held high and then pole vault into the middle of the fray screaming" GUGTO BAK OOIN" Translated it means kill me you blastards!.He just would not die. My DM at the time even rolled in front of everyone so it was nuts!

Ol Corm made it to 6th level before he was finally hacked down by a troll but to this day we all smile when we think about the many battles where he turned the tide with some crazy death incouraging stunt.

Let the dice fall as they may and play the character. Sometimes you might be real surprised at what you find.

I have played a few low stat characters. All but one sucked to plat and was a total waste of my time. Most players I have ever known feel the same way, when they aren't afraid of getting called a power gaming munchkin for admitting it. So by default I allow you to have darn good stats and HP's to go with them

There are a half dozen people on these boards who play in my games. Ask them if their characters have been too "super". All they can tell you is they survived where lower stat characters would have died , because they did that bit of extra damage, had those extra few Hp's, or those couple extra points of AC, that made the difference.

If a player has a desire to play low stats, straight rolled HP's, etc... I let them, but I don't encourage it, because I won't cut the any slack either.

As for new players, I look at it this way, the player spent the time being at the table playing that character. So if their character dies I like to let them come back with another character with the exact same XP points. The items will be a bit different, and definitely weaker, but making them come back at a lower level because their PC died? Thats just being mean, its bad enough their character died.

Now if they just want to play a different character, thats a different situation. Then I would put them one level lower, and at the bottom XP amount for that classes level.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:52 am

Quote:
All they can tell you is they survived where lower stat characters would have died , because they did that bit of extra damage, had those extra few Hp's, or those couple extra points of AC, that made the difference.

To be fair, you know, it could be argued that you are using things that are too powerful.
DMs / CKs can "powergame" too.

[Just ribbing you... we've had this argument before, and I always maintain that a player can, generally, get his PC to survive most situations, barring any kind of crap random luck like 10 natural 1s in a row (which I have seen happen.)]

Saarlander · Post by **Saarlander** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:04 am

Hum, hope i don't bother anyone raising this topic again !
I've been following this one carefully when i wasn't registered, and have done some thinking of my own.

Being the sort of GM running campaigns where the characters are often deeply and personnaly involved in the story arcs, i must say i wouldn't know how to let simple random a chance to ruin a PC's chances to survive the increasing threats they often can't even avoid because of this.

But neither could i just have a go at some full or max HP rule making them the ultimate killing machines....

So i came up with this (planning to use it in a future C&C campaign i'm still writing).
- Players don't roll their HD per level... ever. Their HD are a potential; they may start at full HP at the very beginning of the adventure.

Then, when they lost some, they'll want to rest. That's when they'll roll them (a night of sleep, a good meal at the inn, whatever...). If during such a rest, a PC rolls a higher score with his HD than his actual HPs, that's his new total. If he rolls less, he just keeps his actual total. And so on.

So sometimes, a night of sleep will be all it takes to feel "all resplenished and well", sometimes, the fatigue just seems not to wear off.

Quote:
Example: Rutgar is a 4th level warrior with a 17 CON, so he has a 4D10+8 as Hit Dice, for a full potential of 48 HP at his peak.

After some harsh adventuring throug a forest, he's down to 19 HP when he and his party finally get to rest in a quiet place. So, after his night of sleep, Rutgar's player rolls his 4D10+8, getting a poor 26 as a result. Nonetheless, this is higher than 19, so Rutgar starts his new day with 26 HP. He'll probably look forward to a quiet journey and the next evening, hoping to be in better condition by the next day. Maybe he'll even try to complain and sway the party to spend some more time where they now are to play lazy and get a chance to another roll.

If he had rolled less than 19, he would have stuck to his old total, and still be at 19 HP in the morning...

- Healing and the like keep their importance: Those things that directly heal a character will be just as important as they were. No random rolling after a night of sleep, there come the HP that definitely will increase the total. Potions, spells and doctors will still be sought out...

Quote:
Example: So Rutgar starts his new day with 26 HP, and the party has no time to spend a full day to rest some more. But the partys priest pities the poor warrior, and decides to help him on with the journey by casting a Cure Light Wounds on him, healing 6 more HP. So now, Rutgar finally has 34 HP to go on with the day, already feeling less compelled to groaning and moaning when the travelling goes on...

- Option: HOSPITALITY: To add a bit of flavor to this, you could make some places really comfortable to sleep at, or drink in. Places (or even people to spend time with, like the beloved one, etc...) that let you roll HD as if you were of higher level than you actually are (although you still can't get more than your max HP from it). So some places famous for their beverage or their beds now really will be to your party too !

Quote:
Example: Rutgars party goes on with its trip, and meets some strange caravane by evening. The foreigners are welcoming peope able to offer some protection during the night, and happily share their meal, drinks and songs with the party. So Rutgar spends some of the night in good, cheerful company, enjoying some fresh food, healthy foreign wines, and estranging and beautiful songs from lands afar. A Hospitality the GM rates at 6... So when the sleep comes and goes, happy Rugar now rolls his HD as if he actually were 6th level ! A full 6D10+12 !!!

The player gets an excellent 53 out of this, but Rutgar's maximum still is 48 HP, so that's all he gets. Still, it's a smiling Rutgar waking up next morning, feeling ready to draw his sword against any threat showing up that day, be it a whole troop of Hill Giants ! And you can bet he'll greet his new friends from the caravane loud and happy should he meet them again !

- The GM stays in control: It's his final word if a place is or is not quiet and good enough to get a refreshing rest. This plain may well be a place comfortable enough at normal times, this night's storm ruins any chance of more than a mere nap, so no HD rolling this time people, sorry ! On the contrary, if the GM has just unwillingly beaten the crap out of the PCs with a random encounter and wants them at least a little in condition for the real fight he has planned in his module for the next day, he just has to let them find a peaceful clearing in the area when they are scouting for a place to put up the campfire... and so on.

It seems quite workable to me, at least on paper, but the chance to try some of this in game is not on schedule for now as far as i'm concerned... So if you want to give me your opinion, or even want to playtest this (well, now i'm getting a bit TOO hopeful), you're absolutely welcome...

boxcornersdiety · Post by **boxcornersdiety** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 12:04 am

Philotomy Jurament wrote:
Here's an interesting house-rule that has its roots in OD&D and Empire of the Petal Throne:

Every time the PC gains a level, he rolls ALL his hit dice (e.g. a 3rd level PC rolls all three dice, and when he advances to 4th he rolls all four dice). If the number rolled is less or equal to his current maximum hit points, he retains his current maximum (that is, hit points can never go down when you gain a level); otherwise, the number rolled is his new maximum hit points.

If the PC loses a level, he rolls all the hit dice for his new (lower) level. If the number rolled is greater than or equal to his current maximum hit points, he retains his current maximum (that is, hit points can never go up when you lose a level); otherwise, the number rolled is his new maximum hit points.

This has a couple of interesting effects. First, there is an averaging trend that is slightly weighted in favor of the PC. You're not stuck with the 1 you rolled at 2nd level. Chances are, your hit points will rise towards the mean. On the other hand, if you roll really well, you don't lose those rolls, since your hit points won't go down when you gain new levels. Second, it makes it really easy to handle level loss; you don't need to record every hit die roll you make over your "career." You just roll all your hit dice for the new level.

I ran some numerical simulations on this method and it looks very nice. The mean gets shifted slightly but even 10th level barbarians will rarely have 100hp (like 1% of the time). Most importantly, it compresses the deviation of hit points and skews it a little bit so you will sometimes have very high HPs but rarely have very low HPs. Also, it is elegant and exciting for the players (more dices == more funs). I wish we could post images in this forum...

csperkins1970 · Post by **csperkins1970** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 12:50 am

CharlieRock wrote:
This is an older houserule we used in other systems that we just added tonight to C&C:

You can opt to reroll your HP upon levelling up and take a -1 to the second roll. You can opt to reroll again and take a -2 on a third roll. You still get a minimum of one hit point, so if you botched seven rolls with a d8 then you end up with one.

This rewards higher hit dice character classes more then others. If you take a -3 to a d12 then you still have decent chances for good hit points (and this I have seen happen). But a -3 to d4 is only one hit point. Kind of buffers up the total HP for high HD classes.

Oh, you may not go back and take a previous roll. Like if you rolled (on a d8) a 3 initially, rerolled, and then rolled two 1s in a row your either at one hit point gained or rolling with a -3. You can't go back and take the three.

When I run a game the first Hit Die for characters (and critters) is MAX (like in 3rd edition). After that the players and critters roll. If a player rolls crappy HPs, I roll behind the screen and ask the player if he wants my number or his. If he chooses my number, he MUST take it even if it's worse than the # he rolled.

You could also use static HPs:

d4 = 3/die

d6 = 4/die

d8 = 5/die

d10 = 6/die

d12 = 7/die

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 12:55 am

Quote:
it compresses the deviation of hit points and skews it a little bit so you will sometimes have very high HPs but rarely have very low HPs

Yeah, you'll most likely have average, which diminishes the excitement of rolling the die in the first place. Oooo, a 12! Or, f%$^&! A ^&%^*^*& 1 AGAIN?! Might as well go with a flat HP bonus per level and remove the rolling.

boxcornersdiety · Post by **boxcornersdiety** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 2:54 am

serleran wrote:
Yeah, you'll most likely have average, which diminishes the excitement of rolling the die in the first place. Oooo, a 12! Or, f%$^&! A ^&%^*^*& 1 AGAIN?! Might as well go with a flat HP bonus per level and remove the rolling.

You still get a good spread. For the example of the 10th level Barbarian (no con bonus), almost all the rolls will wind up between 55 and 85 hp. The difference is that while you occasionally get some very high rolls (85-100), you almost never wind up with a roll that is very far below the mean.

I think it would be a good one for the CKG.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 2:58 am

The point I was making is not in total HP, but the fact that you are unlikely (typically) to increase in HP for leveling. It creates static characters. Granted, at low levels (1-4 mostly), there is a decent jump in expected average, and likely an increase in HP, but it starts to peter out quickly thereafter. Like an inverted curve. Of course, at high levels, it really doesn't matter anyway, because dice quit being rolled anyway... so, I guess it really doesn't matter.

I do know, though, that there have been times I really looked forward to rolling that new HD. This proposal, I think, diminishes that.

But, its a neat experiment, anyway.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 3:13 am

Saarlander reminded me of how a old (about 18 years ago "old") handled HP. He siad that since HD is part of the "XP cost of levelling" He calculated out the XP needed per level. So fighter level XP's got divided by 10, and each tenth of their XP's they earned they got 1 HP. They got their CON bonus, if any, when they actually achieved the next level.

So a 10th level fighter had 100 HP's + CON bonus.

He also gave monsters full HP. Since they were typical 8 HP's per level. they were tough. SO no one was a killing machine. WE actually felt it made the effect of the various HD of the classes much more tangible.
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Joe Mac · Post by **Joe Mac** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 5:35 am

See, you learn something every day -- 28 years of gaming and there are some ideas here I've never considered...
My approach has sometimes been this: you have the option to roll all hit dice in advance, as part of character creation. If the ability scores suck donkey balls, I won't make you play the character unless you want to -- likewise with hit points. If they're significantly below average overall, feel free to scrap the character and start rolling up a new one.

A little boring, perhaps, but ensures the long term viability of the character.

Stuie · Post by **Stuie** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 11:54 am

Alcahaelas wrote:
In my campaign I simply count any roll that is less than half of maximum as half. So, say, on a d8, if you roll a 1-4 it's counted as a 4. d12, 1-6 is counted as a 6. Takes the edge off a bit of rolling really bad, but doesn't ensure monstrous HP since half the time you're going to only get half the max HP on your roll. Keeps the characters somewhat beefy without maxing them on HP. Seems to work OK.

That's exactly what I'm doing in my current campaign.
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bighara · Post by **bighara** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 1:33 pm

I'm reminded of a story I read somewhere (I think it was DF) about a character that started with 1, count 'em, 1 hit point. WHen the player sent his PC into battle the others said "Hey! Whaddya doing!? You only got one hit point!"

His response? "ALL YOU NEED IS ONE!"

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