Troll Lord Games

I love the people who have no clue what they are talking about "or even for that matter those who do" saying

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Period. If you can't see this was the reason behind everything, then you blind yourself

Frankly hearing people bad mouth a game still months from being released is nuts.

To have those same people then turn around and say if you dont hold whatever opinion they have then you are wrong or blind or stupid, is almost too much to handle.

People that post such blather are not doing really speaking on the game they dislike but are saying more about themselves than they know.
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Baron Golden, Knights of the Tin Palace (GameOgre)

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Ya, the edition bashing is getting a bit much in this thread. As are the 'absolutist' statements. Please discontinue both or the thread is toast.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

I'm sure I'll swipe a few ideas from 4e. For example, I am interested in Mearls' effort to give fighters who use a specific weapon (sword and shield, spear, axe, etc.) a bit more specific options. I am sure there will be another good idea or two as well.

However, in general, I concur that 4e is shifting too far away from the D&D archetypes.

Also, I am glad that others pointed out the whole Adkinson impact on 3e. When did he leave? Were he and Monte kind of the key powers behind 3e and then hasbro andy collins etc were more 3.5? My timeline is confused

I don't mind anyone not thinking 4E might not be very good. To each his own and your opinion is yours to do with as you want.

What I have trouble with is passing off wild speculation as fact and making statments like you'r the only person who is seeing the topic as it really is.

I don't like it when people do it towards C&C or LA and I don't like it directed towards 4E.

I guess I just really don't like it

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Period

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Baron Golden, Knights of the Tin Palace (GameOgre)

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http://www.cncsociety.org

GameOgre wrote:
Frankly hearing people bad mouth a game still months from being released is nuts.

It would be if no details of the game had been released. But WotC has given plenty of previews as to what 4E is going to be like. Based on those, it's perfectly fine for people to form opinions on it.

You've formed your opinion, and yet criticize others because it's not released. That's hypocritical.

4E is certainly not making D&D `come back' to what it was. It will be farther away from classic D&D than ever before, trust me.

-Fizz

Fizz wrote:
You've formed your opinion, and yet criticize others because it's not released. That's hypocritical.... -Fizz

Yeah, that's probably the single top most reason I left the 4th Edition thread at that other forum. "Apprehensive" is the word I'd use to describe my feelings about 4th Edition. Well, that word and the word "notbuying". But it bugged me to death that we were all looking at the same info, and interpreting it, but one viewpoint was somehow more valid than another.

I'm actually mixed on 4e. Some of it might be interesting, but what I've seen is not... its weird: the stuff that might be good is the stuff I've not seen, so I wait to see it. I've never been a fan of Drizzle the Drow Angst-Party Supporter, but did not expect him to vanish (he makes too much money for WotC...) I dunno. There is potential underneath all the non-excitement... so, in 6 months, I guess I'll pay nothing to see what its like (god bless the SRD.)

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4E is certainly not making D&D `come back' to what it was. It will be farther away from classic D&D than ever before, trust me

I dont have to trust you. I bought the sneak peek of the game and have read it cover to cover.IMHO 4E is indeed coming back from the over detailed strange complicated mess it has been.

You might read the same things and have a totally differant opinion and that is fine. I'm sure you do know what is best for your group and play style.

Notice the differance? Im not telling you how to think and feel and acting like MY opinions trump yours.
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Baron Golden, Knights of the Tin Palace (GameOgre)

Subscriber to Crusader Magazine!
http://www.cncsociety.org

GameOgre wrote:
I bought the sneak peek of the game and have read it cover to cover.IMHO 4E is indeed coming back from the over detailed strange complicated mess it has been.

I forgot that the preivew stuff started coming out this month. So how is it? What do you like about it and/or not like about it? I don't plan on quitting C&C, but I'd play some 4e if there's a good group in the area, and it is easier to find groups playing "D&D" than anything else. I have however found plenty of folks interested in C&C who do not frequent these forums so any kind of resurgence from returning players might be interested in C&C after 4e's release. I definitely agree with others who have pointed out the value of D&D's brand name. WoTC paid a price for it (I'm sure that it has a value listed on their books from the acuqisition of TSR) and they're not going to devalue it to protect the feelings of people who used to play AD&D/BD&D. That's not really Lynyrd Skynyrd touring, but oh well.

GameOgre wrote:
I love the people who have no clue what they are talking about "or even for that matter those who do" saying


Frankly hearing people bad mouth a game still months from being released is nuts.

To have those same people then turn around and say if you dont hold whatever opinion they have then you are wrong or blind or stupid, is almost too much to handle.

People that post such blather are not doing really speaking on the game they dislike but are saying more about themselves than they know.

Since you quoted me, I'm going to take it you think I'm bad mouthing the game. You should read more closely, because I'm not bad mouthing the game at all. I'm just frankly saying what the reasons are for the edition change.

I did not bash this game. Just because I'm not a supporter of the game, does not make me someone who verbally trashes this product. Facts are facts.

-O
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> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

I'm looking forward to 4e. There are some things I've heard that make me cringe, but there are some things that make me think "sweet!" as well.

Right now I'm trying to keep an open mind about it. There is so much speculation and "the sky is falling" on the web in regards to the new edition right now, I don't even bother trying to decipher fact from fiction.

If 4e sucks as much, or worse, as 3e does what have I lost? Nothing. I don't play 3e and if 4e is the same, the why should I get visceral? I have several games that I AM playing regularly that this will have zero effect on me.

I don't get caught up in the whole "They're killing D&D! They're moving to far away!" crowd either. 3e already did that. I gnashed my teeth with that edition, I have neither the energy nor inclination to shout out the exact same things again. Of course its far different than the D&D most of us started with. Its the bastard edition of a bastard edition, can you really think it would be anything else?

That said, I have little care emotionally what they do with the game. TLG has been carrying on the D&D tradition with C&C. Wizards stuff has been "just another FRPG" to me for years.

So, in viewing it as "Just another FRPG" I can let myself get a little excited about it. It might have some things I like. I'll definitely be picking up the books when they come out. I'll definitely try running a game with it. If I don't like it? I'll shelve it next to the other FRPG's I bought and didn't care for. No teeth gnashing required.

GameOgre wrote:
I dont have to trust you. I bought the sneak peek of the game and have read it cover to cover.IMHO 4E is indeed coming back from the over detailed strange complicated mess it has been.

Really? What parts of it are more like classic AD&D? Is it the loss of death attacks? Is it the ridiculous number of hit points? Is it the per day, per encounter, uses of special abilities? Is it that there are no gnomes as standard races but there are eladrins? Is it that every class can heal themselves a number of times per day? Is it the new swordmage and the warlord classes? Or is it how every class has to be put into some kind of defined battlefield role (striker, leader, etc)?

Seriously- how is all that like classic AD&D? This is World-of-Everquesting-Camelot, the tabletop edition. If you like that style of game, fine, but i don't see how you can say it's going back to AD&D roots. Please explain.

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Notice the differance? Im not telling you how to think and feel and acting like MY opinions trump yours.

Ah, but you did. You said

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Frankly hearing people bad mouth a game still months from being released is nuts.

I never said you're not entitled to your opinion. You were the one who admonished everyone who doesn't like the preview.

If you like it, that's fine. But i have every right to say i don't like the previews, just as you have the right to say you do like it. Neither of us is more nuts than the other for our view.

-Fizz

Fizz wrote:
Is it that there are no gnomes as standard races

I tire of all the gnome love.

Seriously folks.They're just shorties who couldn't cut it as dwarves.

Stinkin' gnomes.

DangerDwarf wrote:
I tire of all the gnome love.

Seriously folks.They're just shorties who couldn't cut it as dwarves.

Stinkin' gnomes.

Heh, i don't necessarily need them either, i was just trying to make a point.
-Fizz

The hard thing about proving you're right is during the process you're usually wrong.
Just ask my wife.

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You'll find them in the weapon section. They inflict 1d8 damage when you punt them at someone.

And I almost forgot the best part.

When utilizing a gnome in such a fashion, your character gains a 1d4 bonus to his Self Esteem for the next 3d6 rounds.

Best. Mechanic. Ever.

Edit: Bah, looks like the board ate my previous post. The above is in reference to 4e moving gnomes from being a player race to being a puntable weapon.

DangerDwarf wrote:
And I almost forgot the best part.

When utilizing a gnome in such a fashion, your character gains a 1d4 bonus to his Self Esteem for the next 3d6 rounds.

Best. Mechanic. Ever.

Edit: Bah, looks like the board ate my previous post. The above is in reference to 4e moving gnomes from being a player race to being a puntable weapon.

YOU ARE WRONG! Gnomes RULESSSSSSSS

rabindranath72 wrote:
YOU ARE WRONG! Gnomes RULESSSSSSSS

Bah!

Gnomes belong in gardens and Travelocity commercials.

Period.

Any new edition of D&D is totally irrelevant to me and has been since I actually tried to DM a 3.5 game. I'd been initially quite impressed with the the 3E stuff, my only quibble being the chaos-spiky-bits-80s-shoulder-pads artwork, but this experience changed my mind; far from being the codified, streamlined game I'd envisaged, it was actually a Kafkaesque monster. I can't say I hate 4E, any more than a rabbi can say he hates bacon, but I've no intention of ever owning any of the books.

Tenser's Floating Disk wrote:
Any new edition of D&D is totally irrelevant to me and has been since I actually tried to DM a 3.5 game. I'd been initially quite impressed with the the 3E stuff, my only quibble being the chaos-spiky-bits-80s-shoulder-pads artwork, but this experience changed my mind; far from being the codified, streamlined game I'd envisaged, it was actually a Kafkaesque monster. I can't say I hate 4E, any more than a rabbi can say he hates bacon, but I've no intention of ever owning any of the books.

Hey! This is a thread about why gnomes suck!

shane wrote:
They're more tactical oriented?

I think the total opposite is the case. Instead of using tactics one could wield badassery through character design alone. At least this is how I have seen many try to play. "Watch me use my uber leetness +20. Leeeroy Jenkins ..." *pow!* "hmm, must need a better character design."
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The Rock says ...

Know your roll!

LeeeeROY Jenkins. YOU KNOW IT!

-O
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> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

I spent some time with Races & Classes - The 4E Preview today. Better than half an hour of reading, and I'd seen all I wanted to see. If that is the sales pitch that is supposed to have me licking my lips in anticipation, it didn't work. In fact, it turned my reluctance concerning 4E into downright dismissal.

I'm just solidly in the "I could give a rats ass less" camp. Wizards did well with M:TG but blew it with D&D. Yeah it had hope with Adkinson but that went out the window when corporate-kiss-ass Collins took the design reigns.

When it boils down D&D is now a brand ran by the subsidiary of a big corporation that wants to make hard backed video games. They use computer terminology for their editions (3.5, 4.0 etc), now have paper quest logs and a digital initiative designed to suck more money into their coffers. It's like the Pay-to-play scam that makes me turn down 90% of new computer games out there.

Nope don't want it. I'll stick to companies that make GAMES. Not corporate monkeys unveiling the next killer app build.
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The Lord of Ravens
My blog

DangerDwarf wrote:
I tire of all the gnome love.

Seriously folks.They're just shorties who couldn't cut it as dwarves.

Stinkin' gnomes.

I really don't have a problem with gnomes. Now the annoying gnome clones called halflings...that is a different story.
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The Lord of Ravens
My blog

Julian Grimm,

May you find a hundred hungry halflings (try saying that fast three times) in your kitchen in the morning.
Halflings (Hobbits) are cool!
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Lord Aladar

Warden of the Welk Wood

Baron of the Castles & Crusades Society

The Poster formerly known as Alwyn

Senior Gamer - Member of the Senior RPG Tour

"NEMO ME IMPUNE LACESSIT - At least not in Yu Gi Oh"
http://www.cncsociety.org/

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May you find a hundred hungry halflings slicked in crisco and playing yahtzee in your kitchen in the morning.

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::: Shane

::: Rational thought, not superstition