View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:43 am



Reply to topic  [ 44 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
What does a game of C&C feel like? 
Author Message
Mist Elf

Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2006 7:00 am
Posts: 22
Post What does a game of C&C feel like?
Does it feel like a 1e game or a depowered 3e game? Or something else?

Am I making sense?


Tue Jul 11, 2006 4:51 pm
Profile
Maukling
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:00 am
Posts: 6176
Post Re: What does a game of C&C feel like?
The only way to answer that question is to find a C&C game and jump in. ^_^

Feel in this context is purely subjective. And depends on what promotes 'feel' the most. A set of mechanics, or the people one is gaming with. ^_^
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

_________________
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach


Tue Jul 11, 2006 4:54 pm
Profile WWW
Red Cap

Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 7:00 am
Posts: 233
Post 
Perfect sense.

I'd say, as written, it feels more like a 1E game nicely combined with Classic's flexibility, (if that makes sense). Other than the flipped AC and the BtH bonus I personally get very little 3E feel (rules heavy, tactical nightmares, superhumanly powered PC's) when I play.


Tue Jul 11, 2006 4:55 pm
Profile
Ulthal
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Posts: 737
Location: St. Paul, MN
Post 
Fun. Thats what it feels like. There are elements of all versions of D&D but the key elements is fun.
_________________
CK the CK
"My goddess touched me at an early age."

-Grikis Valmorgen, Paladin

The beginnings of my homebrew campaign world and info for my play by chat game:
http://kbdekker.googlepages.com/home


Tue Jul 11, 2006 5:23 pm
Profile WWW
Battle Stag
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 7:00 am
Posts: 11558
Location: The fairest view in the park, Ohio.
Post 
Hmm, IMO C&C doesn't feel like 3E at all, in any way, nope! I think dispite the 3E-like rules, C&C feels totally like old-school D&D... but better! I admit that I'm biased, but truthfully C&C doesn't "feel" like 3E at all.

............................................Omote

FPQ
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

_________________
@-Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society-@
VAE VICTUS!
>> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <<


Tue Jul 11, 2006 5:29 pm
Profile WWW
Ulthal
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Posts: 737
Location: St. Paul, MN
Post 
The thing that keeps it from feeling like a game of 1st Ed or 2nd Ed, is the lack of confusion. As a 12 year old I always felt like there were hidden messages in the rules that I could never decipher without an advanced degree in cryptology or philosphy. With C&C that confusion is never there.
_________________
CK the CK
"My goddess touched me at an early age."

-Grikis Valmorgen, Paladin

The beginnings of my homebrew campaign world and info for my play by chat game:
http://kbdekker.googlepages.com/home


Tue Jul 11, 2006 5:38 pm
Profile WWW
Red Cap
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 7:00 am
Posts: 217
Post 
Ultimately, it feels like Dungeons and Dragons

8)
_________________
If you are looking for something to read:
http://bit.ly/QOfso

Visit magehammer's Keep on the Weblands at http://magehammer.googlepages.com


Tue Jul 11, 2006 5:45 pm
Profile WWW
Battle Stag
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 7:00 am
Posts: 11558
Location: The fairest view in the park, Ohio.
Post 
Quote:
Combat_Kyle wrote:
As a 12 year old I always felt like there were hidden messages in the rules that I could never decipher without an advanced degree in cryptology or philosphy.



That's because... there was...
.......................................Omote

FPQ
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

_________________
@-Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society-@
VAE VICTUS!
>> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <<


Tue Jul 11, 2006 5:47 pm
Profile WWW
Maukling
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:00 am
Posts: 6176
Post 
http://dnd.meetup.com/751/boards/view/v ... ad=1980003

This might interest a few folks. Especially anyone from the Alabama area.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

_________________
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach


Tue Jul 11, 2006 5:49 pm
Profile WWW
Mogrl

Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:00 am
Posts: 13812
Post 
C&C feels... icky, and wrong, in that "should I be losing my virginity to this?" way. Heheh.

Seriously: C&C "feels" like you want it to. In general, I think most people who play it feel its liberating, at least, if they're from the 3.X school of gaming. Others who are used to pre-2K D&D seem to feel that its "similar but not a duplicate" of their experience, but that's a good thing.


Tue Jul 11, 2006 5:51 pm
Profile
Red Cap

Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 7:00 am
Posts: 381
Post 
feels like fun :0 for me and my group it reminds us of AD&D,but those who play a lot of BD&D say it is a lot like that

Ken
_________________
Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comics

Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you

Slice N Dice: Game and Pizza Parlour

WWBYD What would Brigham Young do ?
http://www.geocities.com/J_Elric_Smith/Index.html


Tue Jul 11, 2006 11:13 pm
Profile
Cleric of Zagyg
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Posts: 10775
Location: Somewhere in Time
Post 
Yep, that's it Ken.

The C&C game/box feels like my BD&D "Blue Box" that I bought in '79!
_________________
Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

_________________
Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth


Wed Jul 12, 2006 12:09 am
Profile
Renegade Mage
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 7:00 am
Posts: 3735
Location: Montreal, Canada
Post 
Not to get into a this was better than that debate but I felt it helpful to explain why I feel the way I do about C&C:

D&D 3.x sought to streamline and uniform certain aspects of play while allowing for unlimited growth (or bloat) by expanding certain avenues of play... It had many good ideas but that is not necessarily a good thing. In trying to streamline certain things and clarify others... It became a tactical rule mammoth.

AD&D had a lot going for it... however some might argue that there were a couple problems in its foundation. Instead of trying to correct it, they built more on top of it... added to it... and revised those additions in order to add some more.

C&C is beautiful. Both D&D 3.x and the AD&D systems where fun to play and if the game was ran right and you gamed with a good bunch, it was fantastic. The enjoyment is what counts.

My biggest problem with the 3.x system are the endless rules and ease of min/maxing character principles... In many ways it can become a numbers game where you focus on the roll of the die and his placement on the board.

The problem with the AD&D systems were rules which were inconsistent from one thing to another. It was ambiguous at times and as such, problems were bound to pop up.

As for C&C, it captures the feel of what D&D can be at it's best and does so with ease. It is light enough because of some of the mechanics that are very similar to AD&D but with it took to heart some of the biggest strength's of a uniformed d20 system.

Because the game is simple by design... you can focus on roleplaying your characters as opposed to what they role... You can finally start focusing on the story. I think that's why I feel nostalgic too... it just takes me back to a time when gaming was just fun and basically uncomplicated.

BTW -- That is also why, to this day, I prefer WEG d6 Star Wars system as opposed to the bloat which is WOTC d20 Star Wars. Elegence through Simplicity.

_________________
Image


Wed Jul 12, 2006 3:14 am
Profile
Lore Drake
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:00 am
Posts: 1026
Post 
Well, when I close my eyes and pick up the C&C Players Handbook in one hand and the C&C Monsters and Treasure in the other...it feels a lot like my old 1st Edition PH and MM1...only newer and smoother.

Pun intended.
Brian Miller
_________________
"The adventure continues"

_________________
Promoting C&C at Gary Con and LGGC since 2005.


Wed Jul 12, 2006 8:45 am
Profile
Mogrl

Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Posts: 20660
Location: Arizona and St Louis
Post 
To me it is a simple system that maximizes fun! It does make me have a lot of "flash backs" to my 1E days, though. Good ones!

_________________
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.


Wed Jul 12, 2006 9:08 pm
Profile
Henchman

Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:00 am
Posts: 1
Post 
So far, it feels like a beautiful blend of BD&D and AD&D. My original C&C games were played in the Keep on the Borderlands using the Moldvay BD&D rulebook with the C&C collector's set . . . and it all worked perfectly!


Thu Jul 13, 2006 3:34 am
Profile
Red Cap

Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 7:00 am
Posts: 233
Post 
Glad ya made it over here, GG!

Meepo the (still) Living.


Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:10 pm
Profile
Battle Stag
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 7:00 am
Posts: 11558
Location: The fairest view in the park, Ohio.
Post 
Hmm, I's say that CASTLES & CRUSADES feels much like a "white-hot poker of godliness straight trough the dice-pouch" pretty much sums up the feel for me.
............................................Omote

FPQ
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

_________________
@-Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society-@
VAE VICTUS!
>> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <<


Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:42 pm
Profile WWW
Hlobane Orc
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2006 7:00 am
Posts: 116
Post 
Under the hood, C&C has nothing in common with 3+ed. D&D. The design goals of both were at completely opposite poles. It should be noted, however, they are both successful, and the current D&D should not be underestimated. After all, Jonathan Tweet was the head designer, and this guy knows games. He also wrote some incredibly amazing, rules-light, story-driven RPGs, such as Over the Edge and Everway. He is very familiar with the design goal of C&C, but it wasn't what he was getting paid to write. Let's be honest: AD&D had morphed over the years to be a power-gamer's RPG. Tweet simply gave it a structure and an environment where it can flourish.

It's amazing to me how much 3.5 D&D feels like a video game. The irony is that the video game RPG's followed the model of AD&D. The early PC RPG's even followed published modules. They had all the events including the side-plots. However, without the freedom to explore those events and make the story your own, they were a poor facsimile. Despite that, they were well received by the public. And if that felt like a table-top, face-to-face game, then the gaming majority had already lost the way.

Video games publishers continue to make games that force players along a storyline and call it an RPG. The players of said game then look for the most powerful build, camp monster spawn points, and tell themselves they are role-playing. Current D&D mirrors the leveling power race of those video games pretty well.

So, pardon the rant, but that's why, C&C is nothing like 3+ D&D -- for better or worse.


Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:10 am
Profile
Lore Drake
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:00 am
Posts: 1026
Post 
Quote:
BeZurKur wrote:
After all, Jonathan Tweet was the head designer, and this guy knows games. He also wrote some incredibly amazing, rules-light, story-driven RPGs, such as Over the Edge and Everway. He is very familiar with the design goal of C&C, but it wasn't what he was getting paid to write. Let's be honest: AD&D had morphed over the years to be a power-gamer's RPG. Tweet simply gave it a structure and an environment where it can flourish.

So, pardon the rant, but that's why, C&C is nothing like 3+ D&D -- for better or worse.



Normally, I prefer to avoid such debates, but credit is due where credit is due so here's some history info...

Regardless of who they list in the 3rd edition credits, the system was based on Skip Williams' d20 rules which spawned from his home rules for 2nd edition. I worked Gen Con and other conventions with him, Jean Rabe and Tim Beach. Mike Selinker is listed in the 3rd edition credits too, despite the fact that he's much more the C&C role-player type (and pound for pound one of the best GMs ever in my opinion and that's saying a lot).

Just because you see a name in the credits, doesn't mean that person is the dominant influence. For example, Richard Garfield is given top billing in 3rd edition despite, as I understand, having little to do with the project other than using his clout to get on the production team. The other people I never met, but d20 is the heart and soul of 3rd edition and it's definitely Skip all the way. I've seen his style first hand and there's no mistaking his affinity for complex rules.

As for your other point, you're correct, D&D did morph into a power gamer's game, but it happened as a sequence of events. Living-city and living-ravenloft, etc. tournaments became dominant at the cons allowing people to build up their own characters. That shifted the emphasis from playing the character you were given to building the most powerful character...which spelled the beginning of the power gamer era. Then along comes Magic the Gathering which emphasized power gaming and had no role-playing at all, yet it stole a percentage of the market. Power gaming gained even more popularity. Finally, video games took over...power gaming at its best (once again with no role-playing), especially with cheat codes available. Power gaming became the standard of the next generation...many of whom now believe such frivolous pursuits are the main purpose of RPG games (which they play like a video game). I deal with it all the time as a CK.

Unfortunately, many have forgotten or never really knew that RPG gaming was never about winning the game. It's about having fun...and the secret to that has nothing to do with gaining magic items, wealth, status, property or levels.

To those who know what I mean, you're a true rpg gamer and you're welcome to sit at my gaming table. To those who don't, join in my game at the next LGGC con and you'll see what I mean first hand.

Brian Miller

"Ah, there you are, Mr. Miller. Now please come along with us..." (said the man carrying the strange white jacket with lots of buckles and long arms).

"Wait! Lemme go. I'm not done yet. It's true. It all really happened."
_________________
"The adventure continues"

_________________
Promoting C&C at Gary Con and LGGC since 2005.


Fri Jul 14, 2006 7:32 am
Profile
Ulthal

Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Posts: 664
Post 
Brian, my hat is off to you, sir. Very well said, and I'm in complete agreement with you.

*walks off singing "Video killed the RPG star"*

What?

Ink
_________________
Check out Inkpot's C&C Downloads: http://www.cncplayer.net/inkpot/index.htm

C&C: Blissfully devoid of gestalt neko-hin rogue/fighter/mages!!


Fri Jul 14, 2006 1:10 pm
Profile
Lore Drake
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 7:00 am
Posts: 1377
Location: Audubon, NJ
Post 
Quote:
Quote:
*walks off singing "Video killed the RPG star"*




Indeed! I know of kids (and adults) who buy a game AND the guide (AKA CHEATBOOK). This is so they can finish a game in one sitting and tell people with bravado(!) that they beat the game.

Whoopee. Would you like a medal or a chest to pin it on?
_________________
AD&D, Amish Dungeons & Dragons.

"Galstaff, ye are in a cornfield, when a moustachioed man approaches. What say ye?"

"I shun him."

-----

"Knowledge, logic, reason, and common sense serve better than a dozen rule books."

-- E. Gary Gygax

_________________
Psalm 73:26

"Knowledge, logic, reason, and common sense serve better than a dozen rule books."

"Rules not understood should have appropriate questions directed to the publisher; disputes with the Dungeon Master are another matter entirely. THE REFEREE IS THE FINAL ARBITER OF ALL AFFAIRS OF HIS OR HER CAMPAIGN."
-- E. Gary Gygax


Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:35 pm
Profile
Red Cap

Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 7:00 am
Posts: 233
Post 
Quote:
Zudrak wrote:
Indeed! I know of kids (and adults) who buy a game AND the guide (AKA CHEATBOOK). This is so they can finish a game in one sitting and tell people with bravado(!) that they beat the game.

Whoopee. Would you like a medal or a chest to pin it on?



That's sad, but a great saying. I'll have to remember that one...


Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:38 pm
Profile
Hlobane Orc
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2006 7:00 am
Posts: 116
Post 
Quote:
miller6 wrote:
Normally, I prefer to avoid such debates, but credit is due where credit is due so here's some history info...



I hope I did not come across as unreasonable and so should be avoided.

Thank you for the insight on the source of 3.5 D&D rules. I only have the credits page to go by. Still, one must be careful not to discredit Tweet as well. Even if he didn't write a single rule and only decided what ultimately went into the game, he must still be credited for his vision of the game. It's like how a good director can ruin or make a script.

Regardless though of who gets credit, the main point is that the design goals of C&C and 3+ D&D are opposites. That is despite that the creators on the team know who to make and run good ROLE-playing games. So in response to the original posters question, C&C does not feel like a 3e for all the above reasons.

Quote:
miller6 wrote:
As for your other point, you're correct, D&D did morph into a power gamer's game, but it happened as a sequence of events. Living-city and living-ravenloft, etc. tournaments became dominant at the cons allowing people to build up their own characters. There was a problem with cheating to get better magic items..which spelled the beginning of the power gamer era. Then of course, there was the panic over Magic the Gathering and the incredible flop of Spellfire and Dragon dice which were TSR's attempted answer to the new rage. Magic emphasized power gaming and had no role-playing at all, yet it stole a percentage of the market. Finally, video games took over...power gaming at its best (once again with no role-playing), especially with cheat codes available. From there, power gaming became the standard of the next generation...many of whom now believe such frivolous pursuits are the main purpose of RPG games (just like video games). I deal with it all the time as a CK.



I don't normally quote whole sections like that, but it is a great observation and didn't know where to snip. I agree entirely. For clarity's sake, I'd also like to point out that I don't attribute the video game to the power gaming trend in AD&D. I say it is ironic that 3e feels like a video game. It makes it even more ironic when one considers that the first video RPG's were tying to have the feel of AD&D.

Quote:
miller6 wrote:
Unfortunately, many have forgotten that RPG gaming was never about winning the game. It's about having fun...and the secret to that has nothing to do with gaining magic items, wealth, status, property or levels.



On this, I take a more laid back attitude. If we can accept the consumer's dollar as the casting vote between role-playing and power-gaming, the majority prefer to power game. But maybe it is just an issue of exposure. I honestly don't know. However, this is for sure: Lots of people are having fun with 3e. I don't think we are derailing the thread with this discussion. I reiterate, C&C is nothing like 3+ D&D -- for better or worse.

Now, another part of the original poster's question is whether C&C is more like 1e or something else. I've got to work that one out, but right now I'm leaning toward something else. Anyhow, I think this is a good discussion on the hobby and hope it isn't something to be avoided. (Damn,wrong emoticon again!)


Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:58 pm
Profile
Mogrl

Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:00 am
Posts: 13812
Post 
"Development of the Rust Monster"

C&C is NOTHING like D&D3.X.


Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:45 pm
Profile
Red Cap

Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 7:00 am
Posts: 233
Post 
Gads...I just read that article too. What a nightmare of a game it has become.
Unfortunately, the rust monster's mechanics could use some work. Within the context of a single encounter, they're a lot of fun. But once your weapons and armor are rendered useless, the next encounter becomes that much more difficult. If youve invested thousands of gp into metal items, you better hope your DM is ready to hand over a ton of extra treasure to make up for your losses. At the very least, he needs to understand that the party's power level (especially for the fighter-types) is now behind the curve.

What a steaming load. If I ever had players who acted like they were entitled to ANYTHING...


Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:48 pm
Profile
Ulthal
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Posts: 737
Location: St. Paul, MN
Post 
Perhaps this is why the 1st ED picture showed the fighter running in fear from a rust monster? Geesh, PC items are there for the CK/DM to take away. :)
_________________
CK the CK
"My goddess touched me at an early age."

-Grikis Valmorgen, Paladin

The beginnings of my homebrew campaign world and info for my play by chat game:
http://kbdekker.googlepages.com/home


Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:51 pm
Profile WWW
Lore Drake
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:00 am
Posts: 1026
Post 
Quote:
BeZurKur wrote:
I hope I did not come across as unreasonable and so should be avoided.



Dude, you're comments are fine. It's the topic I try to avoid because the debate never ends.

Quote:
BeZurKur wrote:
If we can accept the consumer's dollar as the casting vote between role-playing and power-gaming, the majority prefer to power game. But maybe it is just an issue of exposure.



Exactly. Power gaming was always around and over time has become the status quo.

Ironically, power gamers have always had the greater numbers yet they vote the role-players to victory in every tournament. I think that speaks for itself.

Brian Miller

"Most gamers have fun gaming. The best make gaming more fun."
_________________
"The adventure continues"

_________________
Promoting C&C at Gary Con and LGGC since 2005.


Fri Jul 14, 2006 6:04 pm
Profile
Ungern

Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2006 7:00 am
Posts: 84
Post 
That rust monster article is indeed appalling.

The jist seems to be "we can't risk taking away the players' sparklies or else they won't be able to walk through the dungeon like a platoon of M-1 tanks".

I'm guessing this is why we'll never see "In the Dungeons of the Slave Lords" converted to 3.x:

DM: You awaken in a dark pit, stripped of all your possessions.

PC: Yeah, but I've still got my +4 plate and my +3 longsword, right?

DM: You have a loincloth and if you spend a few rounds searching, you find a rock.

PC: *falls into a fetal crouch, whimpering* - not the character, the player.

Thulcondar


Fri Jul 14, 2006 6:56 pm
Profile
Ulthal

Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Posts: 664
Post 
Ok....I can describe what a game of C&C feels like in one word:
LIBERATING

I can think of no other word that sums it up any better than that.

*bows*

Ink
_________________
Check out Inkpot's C&C Downloads: http://www.cncplayer.net/inkpot/index.htm

C&C: Blissfully devoid of gestalt neko-hin rogue/fighter/mages!!


Fri Jul 14, 2006 7:01 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 44 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by STSoftware for PTF.