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What does a game of C&C feel like? 
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Hlobane Orc
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We shouldn't be too hard on them. They have a clear vision in mind and are continually working to maintain that design. That -- in of itself -- is commendable. They clearly believe in that design and I'm sure many others do as well. What it particular is, the author of the article says it openly:
In many ways, development assumes that an individual DM is like a computer who heartlessly applies the rules. This approach allows neophytes to trust the rules and experienced DMs to bend, fold, and mutilate them from the foundation of a workable, stable system.

While he does make the allowance for an experienced DM to ignore the rules, he doesn't deny what the rules are there for. And he's right: rules should enforce the design of the game. It just happens that goal is not shared with C&C players. Although I confess, I tend to read in mindlessly in place of heartlessly in the above quote.


Fri Jul 14, 2006 7:30 pm
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Lore Drake
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Quote:
Inkpot wrote:
Ok....I can describe what a game of C&C feels like in one word:
LIBERATING

I can think of no other word that sums it up any better than that.

*bows*

Ink



Amen!
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Fri Jul 14, 2006 7:37 pm
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Lore Drake

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The only real problem I ever saw in 3e, and which is nicely shown in the article linked by serleran, is the attempt to create a static model for everything. A model, by its mathematical definition, should be reductionist. And no model, however accurate, can ever hope to reproduce "reality" (of whatever kind). So, why bother?

3e, on the contrary of the pure reductionism which is C&C, is a clear example of that physicist's saying: measure with laser, sign with chalk, cut with axe. Each step destroying all efforts in the preceding steps. There may be (and there is, indeed) a clear design philosophy in 3e), the problem is: is it appropriate to handle a GAME? I could create a quantum mechanics simulation of how the lightning bolt of a blue dragon affects the molecular structure of a mail-wearing man. Surely there would be someone who could like such a thing, but...would it be necessary?

Never shoot at a bird with a cannon!

And C&C does this: it shoots the bird with the sling.

Cheers,

Antonio


Fri Jul 14, 2006 7:54 pm
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Lore Drake
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Quote:
Thulcondar wrote:
I'm guessing this is why we'll never see "In the Dungeons of the Slave Lords" converted to 3.x:



One of my all time favorite dungeons.

I used to use the intro and caves from that mod to demonstrate the difference between skilled players and magic item collectors. After the intro, I'd announce, "You can have all your items back if you escape from the caves. Let's see how well you do with next to nothing."

Here's an example of how things might go...

The skilled players immediately start looking for ways to make weapons, find light, etc.

One states, "I take off my loincloth to make a sling and feel around for a rock."

Another states, "I was going to try to find something to start a fire for a light source, but now that he took off his loin cloth, forget it. I grab some sand to throw in someone's eyes or my own if I see him naked."

Meanwhile, the item mongers just sit there and complain. "This sucks. We're all gonna die without our stuff. May as well roll up a new character."

By the end of the mod, the item lovers end up with a whole new understanding of what it takes to be a skilled gamer.

Brian Miller

"Regardless of level or items, your brain is always your best weapon."
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Fri Jul 14, 2006 9:13 pm
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Red Cap
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Amen, Inkpot!!!!!
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Fri Jul 14, 2006 11:36 pm
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Quote:
miller6 wrote:
some crazy story about a dudes groin



Wow, that sounds a lot like my group. Except I never imprisoned them, they just voluntarily do stuff like this for no reason other than to disturb each other...


Fri Jul 14, 2006 11:54 pm
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Cleric of Zagyg
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Quote:
meepo wrote:
Wow, that sounds a lot like my group. Except I never imprisoned them, they just voluntarily do stuff like this for no reason other than to disturb each other...



Ahh, are . . are we talking about PCs or a dude's groin here? I need to know before I post further!
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Sat Jul 15, 2006 12:43 am
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Lore Drake
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Quote:
meepo wrote:
Wow, that sounds a lot like my group. Except I never imprisoned them, they just voluntarily do stuff like this for no reason other than to disturb each other...



Meepo, your group sounds like a bunch of jokers who enjoy a non-politically correct game...yet another arguement in favor of C&C. You wouldn't find that type of humor in 3rd Edition tournaments. They banned it a decade ago. Dwarves can't drink beer or act drunk. You can't discuss a female character's charisma. Elves can't snub their nose at dwarves. It's become a sad, sad state of affairs which is why i don't even bother with 3rd edition conventions anymore.

Here's a great example from a convention, a DM from my group was running a Skip Williams tournament with Skip sitting at the next table. A character got paralyzed so the party of jokers carried him to the street corner in front of the brothel and sold him to the highest bidder. The players were insistent so the DM allowed it and the players all laughed. Skip overheard the action and also laughed, however, after the game that same DM was given a warning for running a game with "inappropriate content" and told that if he did it again, he'd be banned from DMing conventions. The DM protested citing that it wasn't his doing, but that didn't seem to matter.

Quote:
Rhuvein wrote:
Ahh, are . . are we talking about PCs or a dude's groin here? I need to know before I post further!



In today's society, I'm sure there's those kinds of gamers out there somewhere for those who like that sort of thing. As for me, I'm happily married with kids and as such (said in a George Carlin voice) require that the people at my table REMAIN fully clothed.
Brian Miller
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Sat Jul 15, 2006 5:57 am
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Red Cap

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Yeah, that sums them up pretty well!

Oh, as far as I'm concerned, to get to play in a game like that would've been worth the ban. Sheesh...stupid tournaments.


Sat Jul 15, 2006 12:39 pm
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Mist Elf

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I've only run one session of C&C so far, but I can definitely say that "liberating" is a very appropriate word to describe how the game feels. It's very easy to create NPCs and prep adventures, and I really like how "fast and loose" the SIEGE Engine plays-- lots of room for improvisation and creative spot ruling. I didn't feel like we were having to continually look up rules for this or that-- plus there I had only two slender books to lug around with my setting materials and notes, which made for a very happy back.

I'm looking forward to many, many more sessions!


Sat Jul 15, 2006 8:26 pm
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Ulthal

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Quote:
miller6 wrote:
You wouldn't find that type of humor in 3rd Edition tournaments. They banned it a decade ago. Dwarves can't drink beer or act drunk. You can't discuss a female character's charisma. Elves can't snub their nose at dwarves.

What?! I had no idea! It's sad that PC doesn't only mean Player Character in D&D anymore.
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Quote:
Here's a great example from a convention, a DM from my group was running a Skip Williams tournament with Skip sitting at the next table. A character got paralyzed so the party of jokers carried him to the street corner in front of the brothel and sold him to the highest bidder.

As a DM, I'd be uneasy with letting them do that to a fellow player's character, but it's still damn funny.


Sat Aug 05, 2006 6:24 pm
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Ulthal
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Quote:
Quote:
miller6 wrote:

You wouldn't find that type of humor in 3rd Edition tournaments. They banned it a decade ago. Dwarves can't drink beer or act drunk. You can't discuss a female character's charisma. Elves can't snub their nose at dwarves.

What?! I had no idea! It's sad that PC doesn't only mean Player Character in D&D anymore. Sad



I don't version of 3E miller is talking about, I played it for 3 years, there was plenty of role playing and drunken dwarves were very common. The rules say nothing about drunken dwarves or the lack thereof. I've seen plenty of humor in every type of RPG, its the players and the GM, not the system that makes a good game. A good system helps but is not mandatory.
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Sat Aug 05, 2006 7:31 pm
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Mogrl

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Kyle,

He is talking about tournament play at conventions, not at home around your table. I have heard of conventions regulating play to that level.

I don't know what GenCon is like, but I'm not signed up for anything official anyways.

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Sat Aug 05, 2006 8:35 pm
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Playing C&C feels like the reason I got hooked by roleplaying in the first place. Fun>work, by a huge degree.
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Sun Aug 06, 2006 9:24 am
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