help with the knight class

mordrene · Post by **mordrene** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:07 pm

I need help. The description of the class features of the knight state weapon training and lance. Yet there is no explnation of what this gives a knight. so, what does it mean?

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:11 pm

Basically look at the "Situational combat modifiers" table. See the -2 to attacks from horseback, and the -4 with bow? Knights do not suffer those penalties due to their training, everyone else does. Plus they are x3 on lance damage instead of the x2.

The rest is those various maneuvers described in their class description while on horse back.

Hope that helps clear it up.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:27 pm

mordrene wrote:
I need help. The description of the class features of the knight state weapon training and lance. Yet there is no explnation of what this gives a knight. so, what does it mean?

See page 25 under the section marked Charge: A knight is well trained in the use of a lance. When fighting from a mount and charging, a knight inflicts triple damage upon a successful hit when wielding a lance.[/b]
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yell0w_lantern · Post by **yell0w_lantern** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:31 pm

Oh, is that what that was. I didn't know so I plugged in the 1E Cavalier weapon training.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:33 pm

That only address' the Lance training. Steve is the one who posted that Knights suffer no penalties from horse back due to their weapons training. They are a serious powerhouse from horse back, and not having those penalties is part of that.
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mordrene · Post by **mordrene** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:48 pm

Treebore wrote:
That only address' the Lance training. Steve is the one who posted that Knights suffer no penalties from horse back due to their weapons training. They are a serious powerhouse from horse back, and not having those penalties is part of that.

see my confusion. I never read steve's post on knights so I never understood why they had weapons training. And I have not found in the first or second printings any explanations.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:51 pm

Clarification

By the way, it was Davis who posted it; Steve is not a "rules guy."

mordrene · Post by **mordrene** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:55 pm

serleran wrote:
Clarification

By the way, it was Davis who posted it; Steve is not a "rules guy."

Thanks. I have been running the weapons training as the knight gets the base to hit as a fighter. this should help.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:48 am

serleran wrote:
Clarification

By the way, it was Davis who posted it; Steve is not a "rules guy."

OK, Davis then.
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Philotomy Jurament · Post by **Philotomy Jurament** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:30 am

serleran wrote:
Clarification

Just out of curiosity, how many of you allow other classes to duplicate the Knight's abilities with SIEGE engine checks? That is, do you allow a Fighter use a SIEGE engine check (without a level bonus, obviously) to negate the melee attack penalty? Or, since this class ability is something the Knight doesn't roll for, do you not allow a SIEGE engine check to "duplicate" it.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:33 am

Since there is no Knight class in my games, I allow anyone who wants to try it, to try it, but you have to earn the ability (by expending XP.)

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:37 am

Philotomy Jurament wrote:
Just out of curiosity, how many of you allow other classes to duplicate the Knight's abilities with SIEGE engine checks? That is, do you allow a Fighter use a SIEGE engine check (without a level bonus, obviously) to negate the melee attack penalty? Or, since this class ability is something the Knight doesn't roll for, do you not allow a SIEGE engine check to "duplicate" it.

Essentially, I do not. However, in my games this very argument has come up several times. Some classes abilities just cannot be replicated by a class who doesn't possess the abilities. However with no real justification I allow most other classes to attempt rogue abilities. Why? Well, because I do. Nobody but the Wizard class can cast wizard spells, no matter how awesome their seige check is.

-O
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:40 am

Philotomy Jurament wrote:
Just out of curiosity, how many of you allow other classes to duplicate the Knight's abilities with SIEGE engine checks? That is, do you allow a Fighter use a SIEGE engine check (without a level bonus, obviously) to negate the melee attack penalty? Or, since this class ability is something the Knight doesn't roll for, do you not allow a SIEGE engine check to "duplicate" it.

I don't allow for it, but I do have a Paladin who has asked the Knight to train them in their fighting techniques. So when all of that gets finalized and actually done I'll have to redo the Paladins XP's to account for the training.

This is because I am making the assumption that he means the base XP cost of the characters XP class should be increased by 500, which will up the XP cost to level in a class considerably.

I don't think that is a one time XP cost. If so its way too cheap for the game effect it can have. Considering the effects I have seen it have with the Knights in my games I might consider a 3,000 XP cost fair as a one time cost.
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Fizz · Post by **Fizz** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:49 am

Philotomy Jurament wrote:
That is, do you allow a Fighter use a SIEGE engine check (without a level bonus, obviously) to negate the melee attack penalty? Or, since this class ability is something the Knight doesn't roll for, do you not allow a SIEGE engine check to "duplicate" it.

If the ability calls for a check, then anyone can try it, but obviously without adding level. But if it's an inherent bonus that doesn't have a check, then no, you don't have it.

It's no different than a druid's bonus to saves against fire- you can't just get a bonus. Bonuses are there to assist in what you do, not the other way around.

At least, that's how i do it.

-Fizz

Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:40 am

Treebore wrote:
I don't allow for it, but I do have a Paladin who has asked the Knight to train them in their fighting techniques. So when all of that gets finalized and actually done I'll have to redo the Paladins XP's to account for the training.

This is because I am making the assumption that he means the base XP cost of the characters XP class should be increased by 500, which will up the XP cost to level in a class considerably.

I don't think that is a one time XP cost. If so its way too cheap for the game effect it can have. Considering the effects I have seen it have with the Knights in my games I might consider a 3,000 XP cost fair as a one time cost.

Still thinking about this Treebore. Figuring a knight has been trained since birth for combat, horsemanship and attacking and fighting with a lance. I don't see anyone trained by a knight receiving the triple lance damage - unless that training has occurred for some many years. Maybe double damage, but triple should be reserved for knights only, IMO.

Thoughts?

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Philotomy Jurament · Post by **Philotomy Jurament** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:40 am

Fizz wrote:
If the ability calls for a check, then anyone can try it, but obviously without adding level. But if it's an inherent bonus that doesn't have a check, then no, you [can't make a SIEGE check to get the bonus]...

Yeah, that's how I do it, too (i.e. the distinguishing criterion is whether the ability has a rolled check or not). I was just curious if that's the common practice, or not.
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mordrene · Post by **mordrene** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:56 pm

Philotomy Jurament wrote:
Yeah, that's how I do it, too (i.e. the distinguishing criterion is whether the ability has a rolled check or not). I was just curious if that's the common practice, or not.

I allow it. Isnt there an example of a fighter trying to pick someones pocket in the players guide? i work in front of a computer and my books are at home so I am working from memory.

Philotomy Jurament · Post by **Philotomy Jurament** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:07 pm

mordrene wrote:
I allow it. Isnt there an example of a fighter trying to pick someones pocket in the players guide?

Moving silently or picking a pocket are examples of class abilities that use a SIEGE check -- and thus can be attempted by other classes, too (although without adding the PC's level, and even with success, they can never be as good at it -- taking longer, not being perfectly silent, et cetera). That's the distinction. The Knight's ability to attack from his mount with no penalty or his ability to do triple damage with a lance attack require no SIEGE engine check; thus, those abilities aren't accessible to other classes.

That's how I do it, anyway.

(It's not a perfectly consistent distinction, though. For example, a Cleric uses a SIEGE engine check to turn undead, but I don't allow other classes to attempt that. Always room for some DM judgment.)
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mordrene · Post by **mordrene** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:31 pm

i see what you are saying, sorry. I guess if you think abot it you wouldnt allow other classes to do it. If you would, then anyone could cast arcane spells with the proper check.

rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:52 pm

mordrene wrote:
i see what you are saying, sorry. I guess if you think abot it you wouldnt allow other classes to do it. If you would, then anyone could cast arcane spells with the proper check.

Well, by PJ's argument (which is also what I do), since spellcasting is not done based on an ability check, then it is not allowed to other classes. I guess it is a good rule of thumb.

Fizz · Post by **Fizz** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:18 pm

Philotomy Jurament wrote:
(It's not a perfectly consistent distinction, though. For example, a Cleric uses a SIEGE engine check to turn undead, but I don't allow other classes to attempt that. Always room for some DM judgment.)

You could have the additional criteria that the ability is not supernatural in origin. Anyone can use their hands to try to pick a lock, but not everyone has a divine connection- that's a specific class feature.

-Fizz

Fizz · Post by **Fizz** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:23 pm

mordrene wrote:
i see what you are saying, sorry. I guess if you think abot it you wouldnt allow other classes to do it. If you would, then anyone could cast arcane spells with the proper check.

The other way to think of it is this: You don't make checks to get bonuses. You use bonuses to make your checks.

-Fizz

BASH MAN · Post by **BASH MAN** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 6:16 pm

serleran wrote:
Clarification

By the way, it was Davis who posted it; Steve is not a "rules guy."

QFT-- Steve is the marketing / PR / sales / kitchen sink guy-- but rules he doesn't fuss with.
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help with the knight class

help with the knight class

Re: help with the knight class