Do stats even really make than much difference?

[Tropico]

So I bought C&C a few months ago, got on the forums etc., then shelved everything due to work and stuff, now over the holidays I'm giving it another, fresh look.

First thing that pops out at me as I playtest a little dungeon (DCC #51.5, I plan on running it for some of my cousins after christmas dinner ) is how little difference stats really make. Like the only thing that's making any real difference at all is whether a stat is prime or not.

Especially as characters start to go up levels, a +1 or +2 and even +3, which are pretty modest to begin with, diminishes in meaning almost to the point of nothing when compared against the Prime bonus and the Level bonus. It's almost binary: If you have level and prime, you're almost guaranteed to make it; if not, then not.

Not as a real complaint or anything, but I'm just wondering, when it's reduced to such little importance, why go through the motions at all? Why not just cut attribute scores out entirely and just go with Prime/Secondaries and let that be that... purely nostalgia? Some other reason, or is there something I'm missing here completely?

Other than that though, let me say the game as a whole looks really cool and we all can't wait to try it out.

[CharlieRock]

I got nothing to do with making the game, but that little bonus (or not) seems to make the difference between success/fail about three to four times a game (more if there is more combat, of course). Not a really significant impact, but one that I like.
I can't count how many times somebody made or missed a save or something by one point. I know those times happen, because after the game (and briefly during it) that is all we talk about.

Plus, if you have the stat bonus, you can keep up with heroes that have just the level bonus. For a little while anyway.

Edit: I ran DCC 51.5 . It's pretty good.
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The Rock says ...

Know your roll!

[Eisenmann]

With little modification I think you could do just that. In fact, that's pretty much how it works for monsters and unstatted NPCs.

[Tropico]

Thanks for the reply; I'm aware that I'm taking a really general bird's-eye view here. It could and probably will turn out totally different when we're actually playing. It's just my initial hunch, that I would like the actual stats to carry a more comparable 'weight' to Prime vs Non-prime-ness in the game. (either that, or just not bother with them). Still, I can appreciate your point of course.

(And yeah, I can tell the dungeon's gonna be good, cause as I read it I can't help imagining the stuff that could happen and giggling like a maniac at the possibilities, when that happens, you know you've got a good one )

I'll be sure to come back afterwards and write a little bit about what we all thought of the SIEGE thing and the the game in general.

[CharlieRock]

Half-elves get a nonprime stat. Well, the ones that show human lineage. They get a stat that uses 14(?) as the rollover number.

Or, you could use the old D&D3 modifiers for stats. Where 18 is a +4.

Or, use Palladium's "if you roll a sixteen or higher roll another d6 and add to it" stat generation rule.

Or, T&T's if you roll three of a kind roll another d6 on top of it.

I would try the bookway first and see if you still need more gas under the stats.
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The Rock says ...

Know your roll!

[gideon_thorne]

This is true, stats in C&C are of little value other than breaking ties. I think it illustrates a useful point that the game is not all about the numbers. I have no idea whether that was the intent, or just a happy accident, but it has that effect all the same.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Eisenmann]

gideon_thorne wrote:
This is true, stats in C&C are of little value other than breaking ties. I think it illustrates a useful point that the game is not all about the numbers. I have no idea whether that was the intent, or just a happy accident, but it has that effect all the same.

For me the attributes are hooks to hang house rules onto. For example, in my games bows have their own individual draw weight (strength) which modifies damage.

[gideon_thorne]

Eisenmann wrote:
For me the attributes are hooks to hang house rules onto. For example, in my games bows have their own individual draw weight (strength) which modifies damage.

Quite so! But I was speaking only in reference to the base system. I use strength bows myself and have done so since I first heard about the concept in the 80's or so.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Julian Grimm]

I just use the D20 counterparts with the +2/-2 adjustment. That seems to fix the issue.
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[Tropico]

You are both quite right there.. As I've thought about it a little more I've realized it's actually kind of comforting to know that certain characters can be -really- much better than the others at certain things; it lets each character shine in a different way and it defines each player's role in the party a lot more clearly than I'm used to. At least now I'm hoping that that's how it's gonna go
I guess I can do a couple things to offset my stat-anxiety, and that is a) come up with other assorted and creative uses for the stat bonuses:

- a night's sleep heals you your CON bonus in hit points

- an invisibility potion makes you invisible for your 1 + your CHA bonus hours

- reading an ancient map gives you your WIS bonus amount of hints about the dungeon

- you are able to declare dodge on 2 + your DEX bonus opponents

- etc, etc, (just use the bonus as a standard measure of how much reward the character gets after he has used whatever attribute. I actually like this idea and C&C is simple enough that it should be easy to slip in)

...and b) be very selective on what I would allow a level-bonus to be used, for that is where I have the most problem with all this, that the level bonus just grows and grows and your stat bonus forever stays the same... Simply make sure that whatever the level bonus is being used in, geniunely is something that belong's to the character's class, as agreed upon by myself and all the players at the moment.

Julian Grimm wrote:
I just use the D20 counterparts with the +2/-2 adjustment. That seems to fix the issue.

Sorry to be dense, but I'm not getting what the +2/-2 adjustment is.. I assume by d20 counterparts you mean the stat bonuses where 18 is +4, but where does +2/-2 come in?

[Julian Grimm]

With the D20 stats a +2 or -2 always results in a stat mod being changed buy +1 or -1. For example if there is a score of 18 which is a +4 a -2 move to 16 will drop the modifier by 1. It was one area d20 did very well with. No matter what your score a +2/-2 shift resulted in a modifier change.
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[gideon_thorne]

Tropico wrote:
- a night's sleep heals you your CON bonus in hit points

Heya squire, might check out page 120 in the PHB under Hit Points. There's a bit a little over half way down that does talk about what effect a con bonus would have on hit point recovery.. 7th paragraph.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Tropico]

Julian Grimm wrote:
With the D20 stats a +2 or -2 always results in a stat mod being changed buy +1 or -1. For example if there is a score of 18 which is a +4 a -2 move to 16 will drop the modifier by 1. It was one area d20 did very well with. No matter what your score a +2/-2 shift resulted in a modifier change.

oooooohhh... I never noticed that... that -is- pretty smooth. I might end up doing that... though I will try it by the book first though, cause you never know.

[Julian Grimm]

If you do try it one thing to watch is that the Challenge levels may need to be adjusted. I've never had to do that beyond a +1 or so but then I run pretty low level games.
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[Tropico]

gideon_thorne wrote:
Heya squire, might check out page 120 in the PHB under Hit Points. There's a bit a little over half way down that does talk about what effect a con bonus would have on hit point recovery.. 7th paragraph.

LOL, well ya got me there Only given our style of game that we like (ie straight-up killer go-in-and-see-if-you-survive dungeon crawls with just the absolutely necessary wilderness or story-time) I would simplify it to 'a night's rest gives CON bonus' period... the whole 'seven days, 14 days, etc' thing is not our cup of tea, which is probably why I blanked out that paragraph in the first place.

Anyway, yeah that's exactly the kind of thing I'd want, but, just more stuff A list like that is best made over the long term though, as you play more and more. So I'm good for now, I guess.

[CharlieRock]

Besides here, you can also go to the forumes at Goodman Games dot com for the Dungeon Crawl Classics section for notes on transferring those into C&C.

I got these guidelines by Jason Vey on pdf. I can't seem to find the site I got it from though. I could e-mail it to you if you want.

I also had this sitting in my notes:

Quote:
Hello, my name is Chris Rutkowsky and I did the conversion of the Mysterious Tower from d20 to Castles and Crusades, and wrote an original module for C&C for Goodman Games.

Joe forwarded me an email in which a person wanted a guideline for converting a certain module (Crypt of the Devil Litch) to C&C. I personally don't have this module, however I can give you guys a quick guideline that I used myself to make things for Mysterious Tower work for C&C.

The easiest thing to convert is the monsters. All you need to do is look up the same monster in the C&C Monsters and Treasure book! You can mark the pages in the module and your M&T book with color coded sticky notes so that you always know what page to turn to in a hurry and don't have to bother with making notes.

If the monster you want to convert is not in the Monsters and Treasure Book, I would consult an older edition of D&D-- my personal favorite being the Basic D&D Rules Cyclopedia. If you don't have it you can buy the pdf for 5 dollars at rpgnow.com or buy a used one on ebay.

The monsters presented in the RC are 90% compatable with C&C rules. The only thing that you would need to actively convert is armor class and saving throws. To convert D&DRC armor class to C&C, simply subtract the given AC from 19. Remember that subtracting a negative number is the same thing as addition. So a D&D monster listed as AC 5 would be AC 14 in C&C (19-5= 14). A monster with AC -3 would become AC 22 in C&C (19+3 =22). Saves are easier to convert. If the creature saves as a fighter, thief, dwarf, or halfling it is Physical prime. If it saves as an elf, cleric, or wizard it is mental prime. Use the creatures HD as the bonus to all rolls (including saves, attacks, etc). Simple, eh?

If using 1st or 2nd Edition AD&D as a resource, armor class is also easy to manage. Simply subtract the listed AC from 20. So an AC 5 creature would be AC 15 in C&C and an AC -3 character would be AC 23 in C&C. Saves convert the same as in basic D&D.

If you want to convert DIRECTLY from d20 system, use the same Hit Dice and die type as the creature already has, but get rid of the bonus hit points. So a creature listed as 5d10+15 HD in d20 would convert to 5d10 in C&C. You should also take away any bonuses to the damage dice listed. If the bonus listed is higher than the die, just make the attack use the die type, and double it. So a creature listed as doing d4+5 damage, change it to 2d4. If a creature had d6+3 dmg, just convert it to d6. These changes are because hit points and damage are harder to come by in C&C than they are in d20. If a creature's good saves are FORT or REF, it is Physical prime. If it is WILL the creature is mental prime. If they are all good saves, it is physical and mental prime.

Converting Saves

Older editions of D&D had 5 saving throws. C&C has 6 and they are just about the same, except the C&C saves are directly linked to stats. The old D&D saves were as follows and converts to C&C as presented below:

Paralysis-- Str

Breath Weapon (and area of affect spells like fireball)-- Dex

Poison, Death-- Con

Wands, Staves, Wands (and Illusions)-- INT

Spells (except illusions and area of affect spells like fireball and charm or sleep spells)-- WIS

Enchantment spells (sleep, charm, etc) and fear= CHA

Converting d20 saves is a little trickier and involves a judgement call by the CK converting it. You just have to use some logic as to which converts to what.

FORT-- STR or CON (depending on the effect)

REF-- DEX

WILL--INT, WIS, or CHA (Depending on the source of the spell/effect, CK's call)

Converting DCs to Challenge Levels.

I use a simple formula for this. I assume that DC 15 is the average DC of a check in d20. In C&C, the average difficulty of a task is CL 0. So every 1 the DC is higher than 15 in D20, the CL is 1 higher. So a DC 19 check would convert to a CL 4 check. For every 1 the DC is lower than 15 in D&D, the CL is -1. So a DC 12 check would be CL -3 in C&C. The CL of course is added to the base of 12/18 depending on if the character is prime in the required stat.

Converting Skill Checks

Simply make the skill check into an attribute check for the skill that is normally tied to that attribute. You may want to give certain classes a bonus in this, or even restrict who can try based on class. For instance a Search check would simply convert to an INT check, which anybody can do, but a Survival check to track somebody should be limited to rangers or maybe druids (with a penalty as it is not a class ability for them).

Converting damage from traps--

If the trap is related to a spell, look up the C&C equivilent and adjust the effect accordingly.

If the damage is related to a weapon, look up that weapons damage in C&C and convert it.

If damage is listed as a die with a damage bonus exceeding the die types, add another die to the damage instead. If it has a damage bonus less than the die type, get rid of the bonus damage.

So if a trap is listed as doing 5d6+7 damage, convert it to 6d6 damage for C&C. If it does 5d6+4 damage, it just does 5d6.

Well, that is all that comes to mind for now. Let me know if you think of any other questions about conversion.

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The Rock says ...

Know your roll!

[CharlieRock]

And this site has some nifty referance sheets and character sheets:
http://www.mad-irishman.net/pub_candc.html
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The Rock says ...

Know your roll!

[pactmaster]

Not really putting a focus on the numbers does make the game more fun to run for me; no getting bogged down with number crunching or having a player bring something up later that would have totally changed the scenario. I like the smooth running fluidity of C&C. The other game I run is True20, which is simple, but doesn't compare with the ease of play the C&C has.
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Deserve has nothing to do with it, if you think you're entitled. You're not.

--Stephen Chenault

Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens.

J. R. R. Tolkien

[Matthew]

Nice bit of info there, CharlieRock.

Personally, I tend to play quite low level and powered games where Attributes matter more at low level than they do at high levels. I think that this is actually an advantage for a game that uses a levelling system. I don't at all like the way the D20 system handles Attribute progression, as I think it further inflates something that just doesn't need more inflating. As far as I can see, the main result of having a Strength 30 [+10 to hit and damage] is that the DM has to give the Monsters more Hit Points and a better Armour Class, further exaggerating the difference between a Level 1 and Level 20 Character.

Of course, I realise this is preferential.
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[Julian Grimm]

The above is why I use a stripped down version of the D20 attributes. I removed the +1 to a score/ X levels. Though the idea seems an ok idea of training in stats over time the characters get too hard to manage.
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[Tropico]

Whoa! Thanks for that CharlieRock, I'm planning to use the M&T book to not have to actually convert anything, but the DC-to-CL tip is very nifty. And I'm sure I have the Cyclopedia laying around here somewhere, so that's bound to come in useful.

pactmaster wrote:
Not really putting a focus on the numbers does make the game more fun to run for me; no getting bogged down with number crunching or having a player bring something up later that would have totally changed the scenario. I like the smooth running fluidity of C&C. The other game I run is True20, which is simple, but doesn't compare with the ease of play the C&C has.

Well, we don't really care either way about the actual numbers - we're all decently nerdy computer/internet guys and girls, so we have no problems with the numbers per se, but we don't get fun out of crunching them too much either. We're mainly out for the puzzle-solving adventure-risky challenge, and we wanted a system that could deliver that fast and easy, which is why I'm going with DCC and C&C.

My concern with stats is mainly that I want a player that took the trouble to get an 18 dex to think, 'hey that's pretty cool that I got that 18 dex' and not 'why did I bother'. Since primes seem to have the whole check thing covered and I don't want to mess with the balance of the system too much, I'll just brainstorm a few odd bonuses for each stat-bonus to influence here and there.

Your comment about True20 puts me at ease, since it was the other system I was considering, but reading it just didn't give me that same 'click' in muy head that C&C did. Glad to hear I made theright choice.

[Matthew]

So... how do they take the trouble to acquire a Dexterity of 18?
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Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350)

[Tropico]

Just roll it and assign it The way we do it is everyone rolls their 6 numbers with 4d6-lowest, then assigns the numbers to stats any way they want. You'd be surprised how much care a player puts into just this part of their character (I probably don't have to tell you that though) but it's enough that I feel it should be rewarded somehow. Actually getting a a natural 18 is quite an event, and assigning it no less so, and I don't want it to then just get forgotten afterwards.

[gideon_thorne]

If it helps, I came up with a variant task resolution mechanic here primarily for the rogue, but it can be adapted for a wide variety of things. The base progression is fundamentally the same, but the fine tuning of die roll probability has a bit of variation.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Treebore]

The stat bonus definitely still does matter, just not as much as whether its a Prime stat or not.

Still, an 18 still gives you +3, which is equal to being half Prime if it isn't prime, and giving you a +9 for any check based on DEX if it is Prime, before adding class levels.

For non prime you can't add levels, By the Book (BtB), but I didn't see anything saying you can't add your stat bonus, and +3 is equal to the "half Prime" that half elves get.

So attribute bonuses are still very important. Its just that Primes are critical in comparison.

So having an 18 can be used to make you into a "super dextrous" character if it is also selected as Prime, or used to seriously lesson the sting of not having DEX as a Prime.

So yes, they are very important, just not the most critical.
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[pactmaster]

Tropico wrote:
Well, we don't really care either way about the actual numbers - we're all decently nerdy computer/internet guys and girls, so we have no problems with the numbers per se, but we don't get fun out of crunching them too much either. We're mainly out for the puzzle-solving adventure-risky challenge, and we wanted a system that could deliver that fast and easy, which is why I'm going with DCC and C&C.

My concern with stats is mainly that I want a player that took the trouble to get an 18 dex to think, 'hey that's pretty cool that I got that 18 dex' and not 'why did I bother'. Since primes seem to have the whole check thing covered and I don't want to mess with the balance of the system too much, I'll just brainstorm a few odd bonuses for each stat-bonus to influence here and there.

Your comment about True20 puts me at ease, since it was the other system I was considering, but reading it just didn't give me that same 'click' in muy head that C&C did. Glad to hear I made theright choice.

I want to bring up a couple of points here based on your reaction to my earlier post.

1) I wasn't trying to imply at all that you or your group can't handle number crunching. Three of us have college degrees and two of us handle our own businesses, which takes juggling numbers all the time. I meant to say that you don't have to, sometimes it is nice to just sit down and have fun.

2) True 20 isn't overly complicated and has its advantages over C&C, you can make any character you want to based off of three basic roles. Magic makes sense and isn't 'fire and forget' and can be tailored to fit the adept's preferences. The combat is different and hard for some people to get, although the minion rules are amazingly handy and a clever idea. However, it is easier to teach someone C&C and get a game running in little time.

Both games are easy to run, have great support and are from excellent companies. They just take two very different approaches to the same thing.
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Deserve has nothing to do with it, if you think you're entitled. You're not.

--Stephen Chenault

Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens.

J. R. R. Tolkien

[Matthew]

Tropico wrote:
Just roll it and assign it The way we do it is everyone rolls their 6 numbers with 4d6-lowest, then assigns the numbers to stats any way they want. You'd be surprised how much care a player puts into just this part of their character (I probably don't have to tell you that though) but it's enough that I feel it should be rewarded somehow. Actually getting a a natural 18 is quite an event, and assigning it no less so, and I don't want it to then just get forgotten afterwards.

Right, well I think it must depend on the campaign. I have found that between levels 1 and 6, stat bonuses remain a reasonably big deal, especially with regard to combat.

Treebore wrote:
For non prime you can't add levels, By the Book (BtB), but I didn't see anything saying you can't add your stat bonus, and +3 is equal to the "half Prime" that half elves get.

Are you sure? I am almost certain that I read Serleran saying that you could here. As far as I understand it, Primes don't dictate whether you add levels, that's governed by your Character's Class. So, for instance, a Ranger who chose Strength and Constitution as Primes would still add his level when attempting to Track.
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Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350)

[Fizz]

Stats do matter. Even a +1 or +2 can be useful. It's statistically significant.

Though if you're concerned about them not being important enough, just narrow down that initial band of scores that have +0. Stats of 9-12 don't have a modifier. Just changing it to 9-11 brings that +1 quite a bit more likely.

-Fizz

[Tropico]

Thanks to everybody's very good replies, I'm now comfortable with the stats as they are.. I think what I had was a small episode of pre-game jitters (it's really been a LONG time since I've actually ran a game) and I was trying to 'fix' stuff to make sure everything went perfectly; what I need to do is just relax and enjoy the game
(I still like the idea of finding additional small uses for the stat bonuses very much though, so I'll be looking into that more.)

[Julian Grimm]

Here's some other things I have done with stats o make them more key to the game:

Dexterity becomes not only the AC bonus but the To hit bonus for all weapons. A score of 16 or more removes Two weapon fighting penalties

Constitution: Score is starting HPs with the hit die being used at second level

Intelligence: For wizards/Illusionists one half the score is the maximum spell level attainable. The score itself is the max number of spells per level

Wisdom: Acts the same as Intelligence for Wizards/Illusionists

I also had a rule that I dropped but may reinstate is that the in order to be prime a score must be 10 or above.
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