Hello again to all. Long time, no post. I haven't been keeping up too much with C&C these past few months, as I've been refamiliarizing myself with OD&D and basic D&D rules. For awhile my goal was to run a megadungeon-style campaign using one of these systems, but it turned out that I missed the simplicity and freedom of C&C too much. So I did what Treebore and others have been doing for years: I made C&C my own. In this case, the game is RCD&D with a nice dose of OD&D thrown in for good measure and the whole thing C&Cized.
I've sent a 45 page PHB-style pdf to my players for their opinions on what I've put together, but I'd really like to hear your opinions as well. I've broken a little with basic D&D in keeping race and class separate, and listed below are my races. Are they pretty balanced? Which one would you like to play? Thanks in advance for the feedback. I'll continue posting with classes, and the specific rules I am using with regard to weapon mastery, skills, and adventuring as a whole.
Dwarf (9 con required): 60 infravision; bonus languages: dwarf, gnome, goblin, kobold; detect stonework traps, sliding walls, sloping corridors, or new construction on 1-2 on 1d6; +3 to all saves vs. spells or spell-like effects, +2 to saves vs. poison. For thieves, +2 to finding traps indoors.
Elf (9 int required): 60 infravision; bonus languages: elf, gnoll, hobgoblin, orc; detect secret doors on 1-2 on 1d6; immunity to ghoul paralysis, +10 to saves vs. sleep/charm, +1 hit with normal sword or bows, may move silently as a thief when outdoors. For thieves, monks, and bards, +2 to moving silently. For thieves, +2 to finding traps. For bards +1 to charm and lore rolls.
Halfling (9 dex, 9 con required): +2 AC vs. large creatures; +1 attack with thrown weapons; +1 individual initiative; +3 saves vs. all spells, spell-like effects, and breath weapons; hide while stationary +10 outdoors, + 5 indoors. For thieves, monks, and bards +2 to hiding.
Human (no requirements): One additional prime for a total of three.
EDIT: I thought I might also mention that I have no demihuman level limits. I currently have no race/class restrictions, although I am thinking about including some.
[House Rules] RC C&C
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Breakdaddy
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rabindranath72
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Okay - if you've asked, I've sent you a copy of the PHB. It's constantly in flux, however. For example since sending the first copies, I've added one to the armor class of the monk at all levels. I originally had the save bonus for dwarves and halflings at +4, but I reduced it to +3 for better balance. None of this has been playtested yet, so I'm not sure what will work out better in the end.
Well, I think halflings should get +1 to hit w/ all ranged weapons (not just thrown) because that is how it was done in RCD&D (and I loved my halfling archer). Also they are supposed to get an intiative bonus (maybe roll 2d10 keep the better result?)
I too, would like to see what you've got here. My email is epochrpg at yahoo dot com if you are willing to email it out again!
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I too, would like to see what you've got here. My email is epochrpg at yahoo dot com if you are willing to email it out again!
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Sure, I'd be happy to send you a copy. I'm not sure whether I want to go with the thrown weapon bonus or all missile weapons. I thought it was just thrown weapons in Chainmail, but I might be mistaken. Do you guys know off the top of your head? If not, I can check when I get home from work. I am trying hard to be faithful to the roots of the game, so maybe I'll go with +4 save bonuses for dwarves and halflings. I hope that's not too unbalancing.
Would it be crazy to rename halflings as hobbits?
EDIT: I changed the dwarf and halfling saving throw bonuses to +4 versus arcane magic and divine magic. This might seem pretty powerful at first, but a lot of my spells allow for saves vs. charm (charm person), fear (cause fear), breath weapon (fireball, lightning bolt, ice storm), paralysis (hold person), or death (disintegrate, etc.). So dwarves and halfings would not gain a bonus against those spells. Is that a reasonable distinction to make, or should I go back to old ways of +4 saves versus all spells?
By the way, although my spell list is completely different from C&C (it's from the RC), I do use the standard C&C attribute/save categories. I'm aware of Treebore's discussion on how some saves are too prevalent in the spell lists, and I'm trying to avoid that situation. That said, most spells still do require saves vs. arcane or divine magic, and I intend to keep it that way.
EDIT #2: While I'm on the topic, my spell saves break down this way:
Cleric & Druid spells
STR: 3 paralysis, 0 constriction
INT: 0 arcane magic, 0 illusion
WIS: 11 divine magic, 0 each of gaze, confusion, polymorph, petrification
DEX: 1 breath weapon, 0 traps
CON: 1 disease, 0 energy drain, 1 poison
CHR: 1 fear, 1 charm, 4 death
Magic-user Spells
STR: 3 paralysis, 1 constriction
INT: 12 arcane magic, 1 illusion
WIS: 0 divine magic, 0 gaze, 1 confusion, 2 polymorph, 2 petrification
DEX: 5 breath weapon, 0 traps
CON: 0 disease, 0 energy drain, 2 poision
CHR: 0 fear, 5 charm, 2 death
Then my total saves per attribute work out like this:
STR: 7
INT: 13
WIS: 16
DEX: 6
CON: 4
CHR: 13
So it turns out that I have a similar problem to Treebore. Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma are over-represented as saves.
And as my racial abilities currently work, dwarves and halflings, would receive a +4 save bonus versus 23 of the 59 spells that allow saves. That seems like a pretty low number to me. Should I allow the +4 versus all spells?
Would it be crazy to rename halflings as hobbits?
EDIT: I changed the dwarf and halfling saving throw bonuses to +4 versus arcane magic and divine magic. This might seem pretty powerful at first, but a lot of my spells allow for saves vs. charm (charm person), fear (cause fear), breath weapon (fireball, lightning bolt, ice storm), paralysis (hold person), or death (disintegrate, etc.). So dwarves and halfings would not gain a bonus against those spells. Is that a reasonable distinction to make, or should I go back to old ways of +4 saves versus all spells?
By the way, although my spell list is completely different from C&C (it's from the RC), I do use the standard C&C attribute/save categories. I'm aware of Treebore's discussion on how some saves are too prevalent in the spell lists, and I'm trying to avoid that situation. That said, most spells still do require saves vs. arcane or divine magic, and I intend to keep it that way.
EDIT #2: While I'm on the topic, my spell saves break down this way:
Cleric & Druid spells
STR: 3 paralysis, 0 constriction
INT: 0 arcane magic, 0 illusion
WIS: 11 divine magic, 0 each of gaze, confusion, polymorph, petrification
DEX: 1 breath weapon, 0 traps
CON: 1 disease, 0 energy drain, 1 poison
CHR: 1 fear, 1 charm, 4 death
Magic-user Spells
STR: 3 paralysis, 1 constriction
INT: 12 arcane magic, 1 illusion
WIS: 0 divine magic, 0 gaze, 1 confusion, 2 polymorph, 2 petrification
DEX: 5 breath weapon, 0 traps
CON: 0 disease, 0 energy drain, 2 poision
CHR: 0 fear, 5 charm, 2 death
Then my total saves per attribute work out like this:
STR: 7
INT: 13
WIS: 16
DEX: 6
CON: 4
CHR: 13
So it turns out that I have a similar problem to Treebore. Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma are over-represented as saves.
And as my racial abilities currently work, dwarves and halflings, would receive a +4 save bonus versus 23 of the 59 spells that allow saves. That seems like a pretty low number to me. Should I allow the +4 versus all spells?
Looks Good
I too would love to get a copy of your primer as I am in the middle of tweaking C&C to my own ends. Thanks.
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You know what, while I'm on the topic of making attributes equally useful, I should probably include what my skill list. Most skills function with skill checks, although some do not require a check. If you have my pdf, it's listed in the skill description.
STR: intimidation, muscle, wrestling (3 skills)
INT: artillery, disguise, engineering, fire-building, hunting, knowledge (type), language (type), lip reading, magical engineering, military tactics, profession (type), shipbuilding (type), snares, survival (type), tracking (15 skills, many of them have different varieties)
WIS: animal training (type), art (type), bravery, caving, detect deception, gambling, healing, navigation (8 skills)
DEX: acrobatics, alertness, cheating, escape, mountaineering, piloting (type), riding (type), stealth (terrain) (8 skills)
CON: endurance (1 skill)
CHR: bargaining, deception, leadership, mimcry, perform(type), persuasion (6 skills)
Both strength and constitution have very few skills and very few spell saves. It looks like I will need to rearrange some things for sure. Step one is to make polymorph and petrification into constitution saves. Then my saves and skills look like this:
STR: 7 saves, 3 skills
INT: 13 saves, 15 skills
WIS: 12 saves, 8 skills
DEX: 6 saves, 8 skills
CON: 8 saves, 1 skill
CHR: 13 saves, 6 skills
EDIT: I've done some rearranging of skills and come up with this list:
STR: intimidation, muscle, wrestling
INT: artillery, engineering, fire-buidling, knowledge, language, lip reading, magical engineering, military tactics, shipbuilding, signaling
WIS: animal training, art, caving, detect deception, gambling, healing, navigation, tracking
DEX: acrobatics, alertness, cheating, escape, piloting, riding, snares, stealth
CON: bravery, endurance, hunting, mountaineering, profession, survival
CHR: bargaining, deception, disguise, leadership, mimcry, perform, persuasion
I've also changed fear saves to being constitution-based.
My save, skill totals now look like this:
STR: 7 saves, 3 skills
INT: 13 saves, 10 skills
WIS: 12 saves, 8 skills
DEX: 6 saves, 8 skills
CON: 9 saves, 6 skill
CHR: 12 saves, 7 skills
STR, DEX, and CON are still less desirable to have as primes, but the difference has gotten smaller. Now on top of that, we add the weapon saves. The blackjack requires a save vs. death; the blowgun requires a save vs. poison; the bola, net, trident, and whip require saves vs. constriction; and the halberd requires a save vs. paralysis for the hook maneuver and a dex check for disarming. And that's not even counting the numerous weapons that acquire the ability to stun (save vs. energy drain), disarm, deflect (dex), delay (paralysis), or hook at higher levels of master. Just adding in the basic master levels, the save and skill tables turn out to be:
STR: 12 saves, 3 skills => 15 total
INT: 13 saves, 10 skills => 23 total
WIS: 12 saves, 8 skills => 20 total
DEX: 7 saves, 8 skills => 15 total
CON: 10 saves, 6 skill => 16 total
CHR: 13 saves, 7 skills => 20 total
As the weapon mastery levels increase, constitution, dexterity, and and paralysis saves will become more important as well. Adding in the saves from higher levels of mastery, the total numbers for each attribute are:
STR: 18
INT: 23
WIS: 20
DEX: 24
CON: 23
CHR: 20
Add in the fact that a strength prime is added when a character tries to open a stuck door, and that's close enough for me. My favorite part is that characters with physical primes will be more likely to need them for close combat with all those special weapon effects flying around. And characters with mental primes will be better off with skill checks and spell saves.
Let me also add that there's been a few posts on these forums about using wisdom for searching and spotting. My version of the game uses a d6 roll to determine these things. Most characters can find a secret door or trap or listen through a door on a roll of 1 on 1d6, and demihumans often perform better. Thieves, however, use SIEGE checks to find traps and listen at doors.
STR: intimidation, muscle, wrestling (3 skills)
INT: artillery, disguise, engineering, fire-building, hunting, knowledge (type), language (type), lip reading, magical engineering, military tactics, profession (type), shipbuilding (type), snares, survival (type), tracking (15 skills, many of them have different varieties)
WIS: animal training (type), art (type), bravery, caving, detect deception, gambling, healing, navigation (8 skills)
DEX: acrobatics, alertness, cheating, escape, mountaineering, piloting (type), riding (type), stealth (terrain) (8 skills)
CON: endurance (1 skill)
CHR: bargaining, deception, leadership, mimcry, perform(type), persuasion (6 skills)
Both strength and constitution have very few skills and very few spell saves. It looks like I will need to rearrange some things for sure. Step one is to make polymorph and petrification into constitution saves. Then my saves and skills look like this:
STR: 7 saves, 3 skills
INT: 13 saves, 15 skills
WIS: 12 saves, 8 skills
DEX: 6 saves, 8 skills
CON: 8 saves, 1 skill
CHR: 13 saves, 6 skills
EDIT: I've done some rearranging of skills and come up with this list:
STR: intimidation, muscle, wrestling
INT: artillery, engineering, fire-buidling, knowledge, language, lip reading, magical engineering, military tactics, shipbuilding, signaling
WIS: animal training, art, caving, detect deception, gambling, healing, navigation, tracking
DEX: acrobatics, alertness, cheating, escape, piloting, riding, snares, stealth
CON: bravery, endurance, hunting, mountaineering, profession, survival
CHR: bargaining, deception, disguise, leadership, mimcry, perform, persuasion
I've also changed fear saves to being constitution-based.
My save, skill totals now look like this:
STR: 7 saves, 3 skills
INT: 13 saves, 10 skills
WIS: 12 saves, 8 skills
DEX: 6 saves, 8 skills
CON: 9 saves, 6 skill
CHR: 12 saves, 7 skills
STR, DEX, and CON are still less desirable to have as primes, but the difference has gotten smaller. Now on top of that, we add the weapon saves. The blackjack requires a save vs. death; the blowgun requires a save vs. poison; the bola, net, trident, and whip require saves vs. constriction; and the halberd requires a save vs. paralysis for the hook maneuver and a dex check for disarming. And that's not even counting the numerous weapons that acquire the ability to stun (save vs. energy drain), disarm, deflect (dex), delay (paralysis), or hook at higher levels of master. Just adding in the basic master levels, the save and skill tables turn out to be:
STR: 12 saves, 3 skills => 15 total
INT: 13 saves, 10 skills => 23 total
WIS: 12 saves, 8 skills => 20 total
DEX: 7 saves, 8 skills => 15 total
CON: 10 saves, 6 skill => 16 total
CHR: 13 saves, 7 skills => 20 total
As the weapon mastery levels increase, constitution, dexterity, and and paralysis saves will become more important as well. Adding in the saves from higher levels of mastery, the total numbers for each attribute are:
STR: 18
INT: 23
WIS: 20
DEX: 24
CON: 23
CHR: 20
Add in the fact that a strength prime is added when a character tries to open a stuck door, and that's close enough for me. My favorite part is that characters with physical primes will be more likely to need them for close combat with all those special weapon effects flying around. And characters with mental primes will be better off with skill checks and spell saves.
Let me also add that there's been a few posts on these forums about using wisdom for searching and spotting. My version of the game uses a d6 roll to determine these things. Most characters can find a secret door or trap or listen through a door on a roll of 1 on 1d6, and demihumans often perform better. Thieves, however, use SIEGE checks to find traps and listen at doors.
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Breakdaddy
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Ive been going over the PDF you sent me Tank. Very interesting stuff. It appears to be more of a complete ruleset than a modification of C&C. It's painfully tiny to read when I print it out so I have to read it off of the screen of my big LCD monitor. It's slow going, but I'm getting there.
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Breakdaddy wrote:
Ive been going over the PDF you sent me Tank. Very interesting stuff. It appears to be more of a complete ruleset than a modification of C&C. It's painfully tiny to read when I print it out so I have to read it off of the screen of my big LCD monitor. It's slow going, but I'm getting there.
I haven't seen it in print yet. I'd better print out a few pages and take a look. Thanks for the tip.
EDIT: Wow. That's pretty small. I'll have to do something about that.
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rabindranath72
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Tank wrote:
And as my racial abilities currently work, dwarves and halflings, would receive a +4 save bonus versus 23 of the 59 spells that allow saves. That seems like a pretty low number to me. Should I allow the +4 versus all spells?
I guess it depends on how similar to RC you want to go. In RC demihumans get increasingly HUGE bonuses to saving throws, reaching scores that human classes only get starting from 25+ levels. This ties in with the fact that they are limited in level. With the exception of elves, they start from +4, and reach +6 or +8. If you allow them unlimited levels, a fixed +4 to saves (ALL saves) does not seem too powerful.
rabindranath72 wrote:
I guess it depends on how similar to RC you want to go. In RC demihumans get increasingly HUGE bonuses to saving throws, reaching scores that human classes only get starting from 25+ levels. This ties in with the fact that they are limited in level. With the exception of elves, they start from +4, and reach +6 or +8. If you allow them unlimited levels, a fixed +4 to saves (ALL saves) does not seem too powerful.
Most of my inspiration for the races comes from the 3LB, where dwarves and halflings save as humans four levels higher. I would really like to keep that number. Balance is just so tricky to achieve. In my rules, halflings have an ability score requirement, but it's pretty modest, and in return they receive +2 AC vs. large creatures; +1 attack with thrown weapons; +1 individual initiative; +4 saves vs. all spells, spell-like effects, and breath weapons; and the ability to hide while stationary +10 outdoors, + 5 indoors. And an additional bonus if they are a sneaky class. Is that really an even trade for a human, who receives a +6 bonus on all checks, skills, and saves of his choice? I should poll my players and see what they think - I guess they are the ones who matter anyway.
I really appreciate your opinion on this one, Rabindranath, and I think I am starting to agree with you. That +6 is pretty handy to have.