Hello all,
I've been reading the CZ: Yggsburgh city book. I was originally thinking of using the supplement with another system, but C&C is starting to draw me in. I really like simplicity of it and at the same time It feels enough like good old D&D to turn me on. I've been playing D&D since around 1980.
Anyway, I'm wondering how class abilities and saves are effected by multi-classing / dual classing. The text does not address it. My inclination is to use the characters single highest level for saves and class level for class abilities. This seems to most closely model AD&D multiclassing to me, but I'm wondering if I should use "total" levels for saves.
Thoughts?
CZ Multi-classing
As I understand it:
Abilities for the class are determined by the level of the class - that is, if you're an 8/6 Thief/Fighter, and you're trying to pick a lock, you get the Thief level as a bonus. This is especially important for spellcasting classes - ie, a Duid/Mage of 5/5 does not cast as though he were 10th level!
Saves are based on the highest class, plus half that of the remainder, so that the same PC (8/6) saves as an 11th (8 + [6/2]) level PC, not as a 14th.
BtH is equal to the best provided by the class.
I don't use these rules, myself, but it is very AD&D-esque.
Abilities for the class are determined by the level of the class - that is, if you're an 8/6 Thief/Fighter, and you're trying to pick a lock, you get the Thief level as a bonus. This is especially important for spellcasting classes - ie, a Duid/Mage of 5/5 does not cast as though he were 10th level!
Saves are based on the highest class, plus half that of the remainder, so that the same PC (8/6) saves as an 11th (8 + [6/2]) level PC, not as a 14th.
BtH is equal to the best provided by the class.
I don't use these rules, myself, but it is very AD&D-esque.
serleran wrote:
As I understand it:
Abilities for the class are determined by the level of the class - that is, if you're an 8/6 Thief/Fighter, and you're trying to pick a lock, you get the Thief level as a bonus. This is especially important for spellcasting classes - ie, a Duid/Mage of 5/5 does not cast as though he were 10th level!
Saves are based on the highest class, plus half that of the remainder, so that the same PC (8/6) saves as an 11th (8 + [6/2]) level PC, not as a 14th.
BtH is equal to the best provided by the class.
I don't use these rules, myself, but it is very AD&D-esque.
This something that's always bugged me- don't rules like this really screw over the multiclass character? He's got to earn all of XP of both classes, but doesn't gain all the benefits of shared qualities, BtH and hit dice for example.
I get that a fighter/thief should only add his thief level to thief things- that makes sense. But thieves fight too- why should they not benefit from that?
Anyways, not a biggie, just curious if others find it that way.
-Fizz
A multi-class character will get screwed, but only if you look at it in a very one sided way. By definition, a multi-classed character in C&C is far more powerful than his single classed counterparts, and can do more and accomplish more right out of the starting gate than anyone else. If there were not something in place to restrain them, everyone would play multi-classes.
Harry Joy wrote:
A multi-class character will get screwed, but only if you look at it in a very one sided way. By definition, a multi-classed character in C&C is far more powerful than his single classed counterparts, and can do more and accomplish more right out of the starting gate than anyone else. If there were not something in place to restrain them, everyone would play multi-classes.
OK, so you're saying that a 4th level fighter or a 4th level barbarian can do less than a 2/2 fighter-barbarian?
Both have very similar XP totals to reach those levels. But the fighter-barbarian would only have (2d10+2d12)/2 hit points compared to 4d10 or 4d10, and the barbarian would only have a +2 BtH compared to +4 or +3. And he has to spend more XP to get there.
This is where i'm confused- i don't see how the multiclass character here makes out better in any way. What makes him more powerful to justify the lower BtH and fewer hit points?
-Fizz
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gideon_thorne
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Fizz wrote:
This is where i'm confused- i don't see how the multiclass character here makes out better in any way. What makes him more powerful to justify the lower BtH and fewer hit points?
-Fizz
Versatility.
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Its more than the raw stats; you have to think of the SIEGE Engine, as a whole. A Fighter-barbarian (what a bizarre combination) can add level to any check relevant to either class, making them vastly more versatile and effective than a single classed PC, who is more focused. Also, multiclassing is, generally, an option when you have fewer players.
If you, say, compared a fighter-wizard to either a fighter or a wizard, you might see more of a reason for the reduction in power... a 5th level fighter has 5d10 (average of 27,) +5 BtH. OK, that's pretty good. A 5th level wizard has 5d4 (average of 12) and something like a +1 or +2 BtH. Not so good. Now, take the difference: a fighter 3 / wizard 3 - +3 BtH, (3d10+3d4)/2 (average of 12 = identical to wizard of 5th level)... and, he can use any weapon, and cast up to 2nd level spells. So, you have the same HP, one lower spell level, but a better BtH (and all the fighter abilities like weapon specialization) when compared to the straight wizard. You lose a bit more than a pure fighter (cannot wear armor, for one, and a reduced BtH - but you compensate by having 3 spell levels and the ability to use scrolls and so forth...)
So, it comes down to a give-take. For everything you gain from multiclassing, you give something up. Is this always a fair trade-off? Maybe not mechanically, but also, it is.
If you, say, compared a fighter-wizard to either a fighter or a wizard, you might see more of a reason for the reduction in power... a 5th level fighter has 5d10 (average of 27,) +5 BtH. OK, that's pretty good. A 5th level wizard has 5d4 (average of 12) and something like a +1 or +2 BtH. Not so good. Now, take the difference: a fighter 3 / wizard 3 - +3 BtH, (3d10+3d4)/2 (average of 12 = identical to wizard of 5th level)... and, he can use any weapon, and cast up to 2nd level spells. So, you have the same HP, one lower spell level, but a better BtH (and all the fighter abilities like weapon specialization) when compared to the straight wizard. You lose a bit more than a pure fighter (cannot wear armor, for one, and a reduced BtH - but you compensate by having 3 spell levels and the ability to use scrolls and so forth...)
So, it comes down to a give-take. For everything you gain from multiclassing, you give something up. Is this always a fair trade-off? Maybe not mechanically, but also, it is.
Fizz wrote:
OK, so you're saying that a 4th level fighter or a 4th level barbarian can do less than a 2/2 fighter-barbarian?
Notice that I said "out of the starting gate". It is presumed that a character in C&C will spend far more time at 1st and 2nd level than his/her 3.x counterpart. And at 1st and 2nd level, a multi-classed character is obscenely well gifted compared to his compatriots.