Troll Lord Games

I would like to develop a C&C game and one thing not to my taste is randomness in character creation. So...

1. What is the benifit of having randomized character creation?

As a player, I remember thinking "this character is something special" when I got really good rolls. But in hindsight, I've enjoyed playing "point-buy" characters just as much...

One thing I absolutely want to avoid is a player who can't wait to get his/her character killed for a chance at some "decent rolls." I likewise have no interest/desire to watch my players roll multiple sets of characters at once. If I want some skewed distrubtion I can just *tell them* what the values are.

2. Why are we even using attribute scores when their modifier is usually all that matters?

To answer my own question, the 3d6 system produces a nice bell-shaped (as in, vaguely Gaussian) curve with rare occurances of 3,4, 17, 18. So to a first approximation, the only reason we are using attribute *scores* at all (as opposed to thier modifiers) is that we have a simple mechanism to generate the desired distribution: 1 score in 216 has a +3 / -3 modifier, 1 score in 24 has a +2 / -2 modifier, etc...

So, if we'd like an alternative point buy system we can also get rid of the attributes and just use the modifiers (which usually run from + 3 to -3). Another option at this point is to apply normal attribute modifications (i.e., how annoying is it to cast the strength spell on a ranger with a Strength Attribute of 9) directly to the modiers (but that is a separate issue).

3. So how to do a pointbuy?

-One straightforward way is to allocate a certain number of points for attributes, and then re-calculate the modifiers from that (i.e., you have 63 points to allocate amongst your 6 attributes).

-Another nice system comes from Earthdawn (which I happened to have memorized...).

Allocate 66 (or however many points) as:

Points_Attribute

-2 3

-1 4

0 5

1 6

2 7

3 8

4 9

5 10

6 11

8 12

10 13

13 14

16 15

19 16

21 17

23 18

This method has some nice consequences from my perspective. Every player can have an 18 or several attributes in the 13-14 range. It is pretty hard to have multiple scores in the 16-17 range. Especially in C&C, where there are no dump stats. I like that going from a 16-->18 is actually cheaper than going from a 13-->16, but some people might prefer to change it.

-Perhaps the simplest method is to do away with the attribute numbers altogether and just assign the modifiers. I like the idea of giving every character 3 points of modifiers (total), and then allowing up to 3 points of negative modifiers. This way anyone can have an "18", and you can even have 2 if you really want it. For example...

Str -1

Dex +3

Con 0

Wis -1

Int -1

Cha +3

Would be on the "extreme end" of what is allowed with this system. Note that these values in terms of thier (minimum) attributes scores would be: 6/18/9/6/6/18 whose sum is 63 (this value from the first system is just 10.5 * 6).

Again, this does allow for "top-heavy" characters, but limits min/maxing. For example, suppose you went even more extreme with:

Str +0 (9)

Dex +3 (18)

Con +0 (9)

Wis +0 (9)

Int -3 (3)

Cha +3 (18)

One reprecussion of the C&C system is enemy tactics: e.g., after fighting *a lot* of heroes, Pumpernickel the Ogre Magi has learned that you don't cast Arcane spells at Wizards and Rogues, or try to Charm Bards and Paladins.

(The putative minmaxer is going to get hit where it hurts every time because they know, oh yes, they know which ability score you'd like to drop with that fancy horse and that long lance...).

Anyhow, I was hoping to get some feedback on pointbuy systems for C&C. Have you used one? How does it work? What do you think of the three listed above?

But I'd like some feedback wrt to specific points mentioned above.

Using the 3e DMG point-buy system, I came up with five different sets of 6 attribute scores. For each set, the sum of the six attributes' modifiers = +4. So, a player chooses the set he prefers best, and then distributes its six values to his attributes as he sees fit. This method prevents cheating (or rerolling until you get high enough scores) or errors when using the actual point-buy method.
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Turanil wrote:
Using the 3e DMG point-buy system, I came up with five different sets of 6 attribute scores. For each set, the sum of the six attributes' modifiers = +4. So, a player chooses the set he prefers best, and then distributes its six values to his attributes as he sees fit. This method prevents cheating (or rerolling until you get high enough scores) or errors when using the actual point-buy method.

This sounds like a nice system. 5 different sets of attribute values could be arranged in hundreds of different permutations. You could also do away with the values and just use the modifiers. Do you happen to remember the different values?

Here's a simple system depending on the power you want in your game.

Roll either 1 or 2 or 3d6 depending on the power level desired.

The result is the total number of modifiers the characters can have.

So if the result on 2d6 was 9. Each character could have no more than a total of +9 on modifiers. The combination can be assigned however one likes though and no modifier can go above +3 initially. To get more modifiers, one can exchange a negative for a positive. If one wanted another +1, one would have to have an ability score that went to -1.

Gives random determination and assigned numbers all at the same time.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Here is the point buy system I found in a forum:

25 points into

9:1

10:2

11:3

12:4

13:5

14:6

15:8

16:10

17:13

18:16

Were the attributes something like this?

18/13/9/9/9/9

16/16/9/9/9/10

16/13/13/9/9/11

13/13/13/13/9/12

13/13/13/13/13/8

Which would result in modifiers of

3/1/0/0/0/0

2/2/0/0/0/0

2/1/1/0/0/0

1/1/1/1/0/0

1/1/1/1/1/-1

Hmm. This is a little more powerful and a little less flexible than the attribute modifier system above. In any case, I think 4 points with up to -2 in penaties or 3 points with up to -3 in penalties would both make pretty nice systems.

For total newbies or veteran gamers I think one of these systems would work well. For a total newbie, the 3d6 mechanic along with the modifier table along with the prime attribute selection might seem overly complex. "Distribute points into your six abilities such that they sum to 4 with no more than 2 scores of -1 or one score of -2" is a more straightfoward, if slightly arcane, set of instructions.

Veteran gamers I would expect to appreciate how pointbuy gives you more control over the character creation process. Also, I hope it would prevent a bad roll from resulting in "throwaway character."

The only advantage I see for the 3d6 method is when playing a one-shot game with "old skool" gamers who haven't played in awhile. For everyone else I'd expect pointbuy on attributes to be even faster than watching six players roll 18 dice each.

gideon_thorne wrote:
Gives random determination and assigned numbers all at the same time.

In line with the first post, what is the advantage of having *any* randomness in character creation?

I believe that new players want those characters with the awesome stats. Everyone wants to play the Conan or Raistlin of the group...

but more experience players sometimes enjoy the challenge of role-playing a character with stats they wouldn't necessarily pick for themselves.

I think low stats bring out the nerd in all of us!
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-Yoda, Jedi Master

boxcornersdiety wrote:
In line with the first post, what is the advantage of having *any* randomness in character creation?

Some folks like chance. Whats the advantage of having 'randomness' in any part of the game? Risk. There's no reward, in this case the possibility of an outstanding character, without risk.

Not everyone is the same, nor has the same capabilities. In a fantasy system sometimes being able to do more, with less, is its own reward. Doesn't seem much challenge to a game where everyone has the same general capability. IMHO anyhow.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Using the 3.5 point buy systems works well enough as well.

I offer an "elite array" of modifiers -- +2, +1, +1, +0, +0, and -1. PCs can take it instead of rolling if they like.

I just stopped caring. Write down whatever the hell you want. It won't help you when you're dead.

That's a fine attitude for you to have, but as a CK don't you want to invoke some sense of... care in the characters that the players have? I don;t know your players, but it often seems you don't care what your players do with their characters. Do you ever find that if you don't care, your players might not care or have any sense of pride in their characters?

Serl, you often come across as a CK who seems to have been there, done that. You seem as if you've gamed for so long, you don't need to be constained by the limitations of things such as attributes of modifiers. This mentality seems very new-school, but then at the same time you seem like you threaten the characters with death, upon death. Which in itself seems very old-school.

Just an observation, and not necessarily accurate, just how it seems.

-O
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They take pride in what they do... not what they have. Its no big deal to roll an 18 in a score. If that's what you're entire character concept is, its boring. Maybe you've never played with someone who's not afraid to let you do whatever you want... maybe you feel you "have" to have those high scores because you've never had it before. I was there before - I used to want 18s in everything and have the best magic items. I used to be a horrible munchkin player (which might help explain why I no longer care what the players do - whatever it is, I can overcome it, if needed; and, a lot of my gaming experience has been with incomplete rules -- a lot of the time I'd have one book out of three or more and have to make up what I didn't have, based on what I did have from somewhere else, or what I thought it should be... like AD&D - I started with only the DMG and didn't get the PHB or MM until 7 years after the fact.) It doesn't matter at the end. What does matter is this - did you like getting where you got? If you answer yes, then all is good.

And, yes, I threaten the PCs with death. To do otherwise is not to challenge them, and if they are not challenged, they should not advance. That does not mean everything is "let's see how fast the die..." No, I provide what is; should they take the wrong turn, I nod and say "ok, let's see how you get out of this." If they don't, they don't.

I would not call myself "any school." I'm just a guy who stopped caring about the attribute scores - the game is not about your stats, or what you can do. Its how you do it, and against what. Or, to me, it is.

I don't care what my stats are when I'm a player. I take my character and give him (or her) a personality and go with it. If I have a weakness or two I let the other players handle that area and shine where I can.

However, fore some reason most of my players don't like having any low stat. So I let them use the elite array (I think) from the 3.5 dmg.

16,15,14,13,12,10. Then modified by race.

nittanytbone14 wrote:
Using the 3.5 point buy systems works well enough as well.

I offer an "elite array" of modifiers -- +2, +1, +1, +0, +0, and -1. PCs can take it instead of rolling if they like.

This looks nice, and still allows for several possiblities. Have you ever had a player regret rolling?