Ok, so I am attempting to run my first c&c game in a few weeks and know all about DC for skills in 3.5 Do these carry over in c&c? For example, a player is making a search check to find an item in a chest. In 3.5, the DC is 10. Does this number equate to 10 in c&c? Or is it based on a CL of 12/18 (Prime/Non-Prime) for INT, and then what would be the total check?
Sure this has been asked others out there, but sifted thru like 13 pages of rules, getting side tracked and couldn't find anything. Thx
L.S.
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Challenge Level for skills. Help please!
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LordSeurek
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Challenge Level for skills. Help please!
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slimykuotoan
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(pulled from Goodman Games forum: Sticky: Converting Dungeon Crawl Classics to Castles and Crusades.)
BASH MAN:
Hello, my name is Chris Rutkowsky and I did the conversion of the Mysterious Tower from d20 to Castles and Crusades, and wrote an original module for C&C for Goodman Games.
Joe forwarded me an email in which a person wanted a guideline for converting a certain module (Crypt of the Devil Litch) to C&C. I personally don't have this module, however I can give you guys a quick guideline that I used myself to make things for Mysterious Tower work for C&C.
The easiest thing to convert is the monsters. All you need to do is look up the same monster in the C&C Monsters and Treasure book! You can mark the pages in the module and your M&T book with color coded sticky notes so that you always know what page to turn to in a hurry and don't have to bother with making notes.
If the monster you want to convert is not in the Monsters and Treasure Book, I would consult an older edition of D&D-- my personal favorite being the Basic D&D Rules Cyclopedia. If you don't have it you can buy the pdf for 5 dollars at rpgnow.com or buy a used one on ebay.
The monsters presented in the RC are 90% compatable with C&C rules. The only thing that you would need to actively convert is armor class and saving throws. To convert D&DRC armor class to C&C, simply subtract the given AC from 19. Remember that subtracting a negative number is the same thing as addition. So a D&D monster listed as AC 5 would be AC 14 in C&C (19-5= 14). A monster with AC -3 would become AC 22 in C&C (19+3 =22). Saves are easier to convert. If the creature saves as a fighter, thief, dwarf, or halfling it is Physical prime. If it saves as an elf, cleric, or wizard it is mental prime. Use the creatures HD as the bonus to all rolls (including saves, attacks, etc). Simple, eh?
If using 1st or 2nd Edition AD&D as a resource, armor class is also easy to manage. Simply subtract the listed AC from 20. So an AC 5 creature would be AC 15 in C&C and an AC -3 character would be AC 23 in C&C. Saves convert the same as in basic D&D.
If you want to convert DIRECTLY from d20 system, use the same Hit Dice and die type as the creature already has, but get rid of the bonus hit points. So a creature listed as 5d10+15 HD in d20 would convert to 5d10 in C&C. You should also take away any bonuses to the damage dice listed. If the bonus listed is higher than the die, just make the attack use the die type, and double it. So a creature listed as doing d4+5 damage, change it to 2d4. If a creature had d6+3 dmg, just convert it to d6. These changes are because hit points and damage are harder to come by in C&C than they are in d20. If a creature's good saves are FORT or REF, it is Physical prime. If it is WILL the creature is mental prime. If they are all good saves, it is physical and mental prime.
Converting Saves
Older editions of D&D had 5 saving throws. C&C has 6 and they are just about the same, except the C&C saves are directly linked to stats. The old D&D saves were as follows and converts to C&C as presented below:
Paralysis-- Str
Breath Weapon (and area of affect spells like fireball)-- Dex
Poison, Death-- Con
Wands, Staves, Wands (and Illusions)-- INT
Spells (except illusions and area of affect spells like fireball and charm or sleep spells)-- WIS
Enchantment spells (sleep, charm, etc) and fear= CHA
Converting d20 saves is a little trickier and involves a judgement call by the CK converting it. You just have to use some logic as to which converts to what.
FORT-- STR or CON (depending on the effect)
REF-- DEX
WILL--INT, WIS, or CHA (Depending on the source of the spell/effect, CK's call)
Converting DCs to Challenge Levels.
I use a simple formula for this. I assume that DC 15 is the average DC of a check in d20. In C&C, the average difficulty of a task is CL 0. So every 1 the DC is higher than 15 in D20, the CL is 1 higher. So a DC 19 check would convert to a CL 4 check. For every 1 the DC is lower than 15 in D&D, the CL is -1. So a DC 12 check would be CL -3 in C&C. The CL of course is added to the base of 12/18 depending on if the character is prime in the required stat.
Converting Skill Checks
Simply make the skill check into an attribute check for the skill that is normally tied to that attribute. You may want to give certain classes a bonus in this, or even restrict who can try based on class. For instance a Search check would simply convert to an INT check, which anybody can do, but a Survival check to track somebody should be limited to rangers or maybe druids (with a penalty as it is not a class ability for them).
Converting damage from traps--
If the trap is related to a spell, look up the C&C equivilent and adjust the effect accordingly.
If the damage is related to a weapon, look up that weapons damage in C&C and convert it.
If damage is listed as a die with a damage bonus exceeding the die types, add another die to the damage instead. If it has a damage bonus less than the die type, get rid of the bonus damage.
So if a trap is listed as doing 5d6+7 damage, convert it to 6d6 damage for C&C. If it does 5d6+4 damage, it just does 5d6.
Well, that is all that comes to mind for now. Let me know if you think of any other questions about conversion.
_________________
BASH MAN:
Hello, my name is Chris Rutkowsky and I did the conversion of the Mysterious Tower from d20 to Castles and Crusades, and wrote an original module for C&C for Goodman Games.
Joe forwarded me an email in which a person wanted a guideline for converting a certain module (Crypt of the Devil Litch) to C&C. I personally don't have this module, however I can give you guys a quick guideline that I used myself to make things for Mysterious Tower work for C&C.
The easiest thing to convert is the monsters. All you need to do is look up the same monster in the C&C Monsters and Treasure book! You can mark the pages in the module and your M&T book with color coded sticky notes so that you always know what page to turn to in a hurry and don't have to bother with making notes.
If the monster you want to convert is not in the Monsters and Treasure Book, I would consult an older edition of D&D-- my personal favorite being the Basic D&D Rules Cyclopedia. If you don't have it you can buy the pdf for 5 dollars at rpgnow.com or buy a used one on ebay.
The monsters presented in the RC are 90% compatable with C&C rules. The only thing that you would need to actively convert is armor class and saving throws. To convert D&DRC armor class to C&C, simply subtract the given AC from 19. Remember that subtracting a negative number is the same thing as addition. So a D&D monster listed as AC 5 would be AC 14 in C&C (19-5= 14). A monster with AC -3 would become AC 22 in C&C (19+3 =22). Saves are easier to convert. If the creature saves as a fighter, thief, dwarf, or halfling it is Physical prime. If it saves as an elf, cleric, or wizard it is mental prime. Use the creatures HD as the bonus to all rolls (including saves, attacks, etc). Simple, eh?
If using 1st or 2nd Edition AD&D as a resource, armor class is also easy to manage. Simply subtract the listed AC from 20. So an AC 5 creature would be AC 15 in C&C and an AC -3 character would be AC 23 in C&C. Saves convert the same as in basic D&D.
If you want to convert DIRECTLY from d20 system, use the same Hit Dice and die type as the creature already has, but get rid of the bonus hit points. So a creature listed as 5d10+15 HD in d20 would convert to 5d10 in C&C. You should also take away any bonuses to the damage dice listed. If the bonus listed is higher than the die, just make the attack use the die type, and double it. So a creature listed as doing d4+5 damage, change it to 2d4. If a creature had d6+3 dmg, just convert it to d6. These changes are because hit points and damage are harder to come by in C&C than they are in d20. If a creature's good saves are FORT or REF, it is Physical prime. If it is WILL the creature is mental prime. If they are all good saves, it is physical and mental prime.
Converting Saves
Older editions of D&D had 5 saving throws. C&C has 6 and they are just about the same, except the C&C saves are directly linked to stats. The old D&D saves were as follows and converts to C&C as presented below:
Paralysis-- Str
Breath Weapon (and area of affect spells like fireball)-- Dex
Poison, Death-- Con
Wands, Staves, Wands (and Illusions)-- INT
Spells (except illusions and area of affect spells like fireball and charm or sleep spells)-- WIS
Enchantment spells (sleep, charm, etc) and fear= CHA
Converting d20 saves is a little trickier and involves a judgement call by the CK converting it. You just have to use some logic as to which converts to what.
FORT-- STR or CON (depending on the effect)
REF-- DEX
WILL--INT, WIS, or CHA (Depending on the source of the spell/effect, CK's call)
Converting DCs to Challenge Levels.
I use a simple formula for this. I assume that DC 15 is the average DC of a check in d20. In C&C, the average difficulty of a task is CL 0. So every 1 the DC is higher than 15 in D20, the CL is 1 higher. So a DC 19 check would convert to a CL 4 check. For every 1 the DC is lower than 15 in D&D, the CL is -1. So a DC 12 check would be CL -3 in C&C. The CL of course is added to the base of 12/18 depending on if the character is prime in the required stat.
Converting Skill Checks
Simply make the skill check into an attribute check for the skill that is normally tied to that attribute. You may want to give certain classes a bonus in this, or even restrict who can try based on class. For instance a Search check would simply convert to an INT check, which anybody can do, but a Survival check to track somebody should be limited to rangers or maybe druids (with a penalty as it is not a class ability for them).
Converting damage from traps--
If the trap is related to a spell, look up the C&C equivilent and adjust the effect accordingly.
If the damage is related to a weapon, look up that weapons damage in C&C and convert it.
If damage is listed as a die with a damage bonus exceeding the die types, add another die to the damage instead. If it has a damage bonus less than the die type, get rid of the bonus damage.
So if a trap is listed as doing 5d6+7 damage, convert it to 6d6 damage for C&C. If it does 5d6+4 damage, it just does 5d6.
Well, that is all that comes to mind for now. Let me know if you think of any other questions about conversion.
_________________
For crying out loud. Do your best with the rolls the dice have given you. This is what separates the men from the boys... -Kayolan
I just pick a CL that is as difficult as I want it to be for the party or character to make.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society
Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/
My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
You may also find the third COMPLETE paragraph on page 110 of the PH helpful (3rd printing).
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society
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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
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LordSeurek
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slimykuotoan wrote:
Converting DCs to Challenge Levels.
I use a simple formula for this. I assume that DC 15 is the average DC of a check in d20. In C&C, the average difficulty of a task is CL 0. So every 1 the DC is higher than 15 in D20, the CL is 1 higher. So a DC 19 check would convert to a CL 4 check. For every 1 the DC is lower than 15 in D&D, the CL is -1. So a DC 12 check would be CL -3 in C&C. The CL of course is added to the base of 12/18 depending on if the character is prime in the required stat.
Converting Skill Checks
Simply make the skill check into an attribute check for the skill that is normally tied to that attribute. You may want to give certain classes a bonus in this, or even restrict who can try based on class. For instance a Search check would simply convert to an INT check, which anybody can do, but a Survival check to track somebody should be limited to rangers or maybe druids (with a penalty as it is not a class ability for them).
What I was looking for. Thanks Boss. C ya in a tonight.
L.S.
Powers that be can close this thread now
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LordSeurek
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Dont have the 3rd printing tree, and serleran, 10 was just an example, with level and attribute mod going into check, agreed, 10 would be silly.
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gideon_thorne
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LordSeurek wrote:
Powers that be can close this thread now
*chuckles* What for? That would only deprive people of the ability to rattle on for several more pages. Not like we're limited on bit space or anything.
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Omote
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*rattle*
Depending on the overall level of the PCs, I have always thought that CL 0-2 is easy, 3-6 medium, and 7+ as difficult. Though, higer level character skew this chart. Though, generally speaking it has worked.
-O
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Depending on the overall level of the PCs, I have always thought that CL 0-2 is easy, 3-6 medium, and 7+ as difficult. Though, higer level character skew this chart. Though, generally speaking it has worked.
-O
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@-Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society-@
VAE VICTUS!
>> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <<
VAE VICTUS!
>> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <<
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rabindranath72
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LordSeurek
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Cool. Much clearer now, many thanks all.
L.S.
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L.S.
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CharlieRock
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One thing I deal with in C&C is getting d20 in my skill checks. I try to be a bit more open minded when I come up with a skill check with regard to what attribute it is using. Like, why is Sneak only a Dex check? Couldn't it be a Wis check, too? Is it impossible to swim intelligently instead of just muscling your way through the water?
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LordSeurek
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CharlieRock wrote:
One thing I deal with in C&C is getting d20 in my skill checks. I try to be a bit more open minded when I come up with a skill check with regard to what attribute it is using. Like, why is Sneak only a Dex check? Couldn't it be a Wis check, too? Is it impossible to swim intelligently instead of just muscling your way through the water?
Very good point. I'll keep it in mind when I finalize my skills list and appropriate check.
L.S.
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The paragraph I was trying to refer you to defines the easy, difficult, and very difficult ranges.
Another thing to remember is make sure a skill roll is even necessary.
For example, someone uses a carpentry skill to make a set of pretty standard stairs. Do you have them make a roll, or assume he is competent enough to do the job without a roll?
I would say no roll is needed.
However if they were doing a custom design job of a design and style he had never done before, then I would say yes, but still have it in the easy range. IE 0 to 5.
As long as you concentrate on being reasonable and realistic, and always side with reasonable over trying to be realistic, you'll do just fine. It is a game, after all. Not a real life simulator.
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Another thing to remember is make sure a skill roll is even necessary.
For example, someone uses a carpentry skill to make a set of pretty standard stairs. Do you have them make a roll, or assume he is competent enough to do the job without a roll?
I would say no roll is needed.
However if they were doing a custom design job of a design and style he had never done before, then I would say yes, but still have it in the easy range. IE 0 to 5.
As long as you concentrate on being reasonable and realistic, and always side with reasonable over trying to be realistic, you'll do just fine. It is a game, after all. Not a real life simulator.
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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
CharlieRock wrote:
One thing I deal with in C&C is getting d20 in my skill checks. I try to be a bit more open minded when I come up with a skill check with regard to what attribute it is using. Like, why is Sneak only a Dex check? Couldn't it be a Wis check, too? Is it impossible to swim intelligently instead of just muscling your way through the water?
I do this, as well. However, I often take the worst associated penalty and the best bonus and add them together. So, if a Character uses Dexterity and Strength to Climb the following would apply:
Strength 8(-1), Dexterity 16(+2) = +1
Strength 13(+1), Dexterity 13(+1) = +1
Strength 8(-1), Dexterity 12(+0) = -1
Strength 5(-2), Dexterity 8(-1) = -2
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LordSeurek
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Very good point Robert, and Matthew, interesting
L.S.
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L.S.
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CharlieRock
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LordSeurek
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CharlieRock wrote:
This guy really needs to wait for someone else to throw a rope down to him.
and then who is gonna pull him up......
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CharlieRock
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Heh, heh. Well, whilst I don't use Primes myself, if the first guy had Primes in Strength and Dexterity and the other guy didn't, he'd put him to shame...
Level 1 Human Cleric
Primary Attributes: Strength 5(-2), Dexterity 8(-1), Wisdom 14(+1)
Level 1 Elf Knight
Secondary Attributes: Strength 13(+1), Dexterity 13(+1)
Cleric needs a 13 to Climb (40% chance), Knight needs 16 to Climb (25% chance). Just shows you, never underestimate the little scrawny looking guy with below average spacial awareness...
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It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after ones own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.
Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350)
Level 1 Human Cleric
Primary Attributes: Strength 5(-2), Dexterity 8(-1), Wisdom 14(+1)
Level 1 Elf Knight
Secondary Attributes: Strength 13(+1), Dexterity 13(+1)
Cleric needs a 13 to Climb (40% chance), Knight needs 16 to Climb (25% chance). Just shows you, never underestimate the little scrawny looking guy with below average spacial awareness...
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Geron Raveneye
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Re: Challenge Level for skills. Help please!
LordSeurek wrote:
Ok, so I am attempting to run my first c&c game in a few weeks and know all about DC for skills in 3.5 Do these carry over in c&c? For example, a player is making a search check to find an item in a chest. In 3.5, the DC is 10. Does this number equate to 10 in c&c? Or is it based on a CL of 12/18 (Prime/Non-Prime) for INT, and then what would be the total check?
Sure this has been asked others out there, but sifted thru like 13 pages of rules, getting side tracked and couldn't find anything. Thx
L.S.
A few months ago I was trying to come up with a simple skill system for C&C myself, and as a part of the thought process, ran some numbers on the current SIEGE engine, the Challenge Levels, and success chances. The results made me post this thread
here
...which in turn brought up some interesting, and probably useful to your question, ponders about what assumptions go into the SIEGE checks in the first place. Hope I could help with this. I know it helped me back then...I stopped worrying to much about skill systems, really, and would basically turn to the 2E "Secondary Skills" if I wanted one.
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LordSeurek
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Thanks Geron, read thru your thread, was a big help.
L.S.
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L.S.
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gideon_thorne
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Thats the fun of letting this thread continue. There is always more than one answer to a question. And often one answer suits better than another. Ive seen at least 25 different ways to handle skills in this game. Its all good.
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LordSeurek
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gideon_thorne wrote:
Thats the fun of letting this thread continue. There is always more than one answer to a question. And often one answer suits better than another. Ive seen at least 25 different ways to handle skills in this game. Its all good.
I totally agree. Bearing everything people have posted, I got a good idea now of how to handle it. Thanks!!
L.S.
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