Creating a Skill List

[Mythago]

BASH MAN I agree with re 4th ed skills - they are neatly done. And this imports into C&C really well imo.

Thanks

[Treebore]

Ozric wrote:
I must examine this product. Thanks!

Its a free PDF for now, lots of good ideas being generated by this playtest. Several of which I am considering yanking for my C&C.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

[Treebore]

BASH MAN wrote:
One of the things that I think that 4e D&D is doing right is its skill list. It's small and to the point.

Each stat stat has a few skills attached-- and each skill has multple uses:

Acrobatics: (Balance, Escape Artist, Tumble) Use this skill to test your balance on narrow or unstable surfaces, to escape from a grab or from restraints, and (if youre trained) to reduce your damage when you fall.

Arcana: (Knowledge Arcane, Spellcraft) You have knowledge about magic and magical effects, and (if youre trained) you know how to detect a persistent magical effect.

Athletics: (Climb, swim, jump) Use this skill to climb, swim, or jump.

Bluff: (Bluff) Use this skill to make whats false appear to be true, fast-talk a guard, con a merchant, or tell lies.

Diplomacy: (Diplomacy) Use this skill to influence other with tact and social grace, change opinions, inspire good will, and to negotiate a deal in good faith.

Dungeoneering: (Knowledge Dungeoneering) You have knowledge about forging a path through a dungeon complex, recognizing dungeon hazards, and finding food in the Underdark.

Endurance: Use this skill to stave off ill effects and to push beyond normal physical limits.

Heal: (Heal) Use this skill to administer first aid, stabilize ad dying character, grant a saving throw, or treat a disease.

History: (Knowledge History) You have knowledge about history, including significant events, legends, customs, and traditions.

Insight: (Sense Motive) Use this skill to discern intent and decipher body language, making a best guess as to a targets motives, attitudes, and truthfulness.

Intimidate: (Intimidate) Use this skill to influence others through hostile actions and overt threats. (Intimidate)

Nature: (Knowledge Nature, Tracking, etc) You have knowledge related to finding your way through the wilderness, recognizing natural hazards, and living off the land.

Perception: (Listen, Search, Spot) Use this skill to notice clues, spots imminent dangers, and location hidden objects.

Religion: (Knowledge Religion) You have knowledge of religious traditions.

Stealth: (Hide, Move Silently) Use this skill to hide and move silently.

Streetwise: You know how to get the lay of the land in an urban setting.

Thievery: (Disable Device, Open Lock, Slight of Hand) Use this skill to disable traps, open locks, pick pockets, and perform other slight of hand.

The number of choices a character gets for skills is 4+INT modifier. Anyone can choose any skill regardless of class-- if the fighter wants to waste one of his slots studying to be able to identify spells even if he cannot cast them, that is his business.

If the skill is also a class ability (like "thievery" for rogues), a member of that class who takes the skill gets +2 to their rolls for that skill. This means that a rogue might min/max by taking Thievery, Stealth, Athletics, and Perception to get +2 to a bunch of class abilities-- or could do the opposite, taking a bunch of other skills-- Streetwise, Insight, Bluff, Dungeoneering-- to make their character more diverse.

Anyone can try any skill-- but a skill you don't have and are 'defaulting" with is not prime (regardless of ability score). Likewise, a skill that you are trained in is prime (regardless of ability score). This means that ability score primes are saved for saves, class abilities, & attribute checks. So you could play an Elf Ranger w/ STR prime, CHA prime-- and not suck-- you would simply pick Stealth, Perception, Nature, and Heal as skills-- making those rolls prime. And because they correspond w/ class abilities, they also grant +2 on the checks.

Thanks for writing this out. I like the somewhat generalized approach to this (being more like "skill groups"), which fits much better with what I want in C&C (being more generalized, more abstract, rather than overly defined and entwined in the details). I don't know if I would go with the 4 + INT modifier. I think I would be happier with 6 or 8 + INT modifier. Still, I have plenty of time to think about this.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

[Mythago]

I am wondering which skill (aka siege) rolls would get a level bonus - just class and trained (aka chosen) skill?

[Treebore]

Mythago wrote:
I am wondering which skill (aka siege) rolls would get a level bonus - just class and trained (aka chosen) skill?

That is how I do it. I even go so far as to treat them as if the relevant stat is Prime, even if it is not. Since I have never found skills to be game breakers I have been fine with this, and none of my players have complained either.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

[Dagger]

I don't use a skill list. When I have a player that is having problems visualizing the types of things they'd be good at, I have them select an AD&D 2nd Edition Kit. They don't get any of the mechanical benefits/drawbacks of the Kit.... we just use the flavor of it to decide what types of actions would have their level added to them when a SIEGE check is made.

So a Buccaneer might be good at swimming, a Savage Wizard might be good at outdoors types of things, etc...
_________________
Rusty

[csperkins1970]

Ozric wrote:
Thanks for the replies, everyone.

Maybe it would work better if my skill list only contains skills that aren't class abilities of any kind? Characters could still attempt those actions, but only the appropriate classes could add their level to the check?

I allow all classes a chance to climb, move silently, hide and listen. As such, those class abilities grant the character a +5 bonus to related SIEGE checks (and allow those with the Climb ability to climb at 1/2 rather than 1/4 speed). I also use 15 as my Challenge Base, with Primes adding +5 to attribute checks.
As such, a rogue with Climb and DEX prime gets a +10 to his climb checks before adding his level bonus. That means that he has a 80% chance of successfully making an average climbing roll.

The only skills that characters have are background skills from 4 categories:

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SKILLS

A player character is more than a collection of combat modifiers. Like most people, player characters and NPCs have learned a variety of skills over the years. The character class chosen by a player dictates much of what their character knows through years of training and study, while their ability scores (particularly their prime ability scores) define their natural aptitudes and weaknesses.

Each ability score governs certain tasks that all characters may attempt without any specialized training. This section details a number of skills that reflect specialized training or areas of learning that the character acquired throughout their youth.

Skills function much like class abilities in that they must be possessed by a character in order for that character to add their level bonus to ability checks. If a character attempts to use a skill they do not possess, they may not add their level bonus to the ability check.
STARTING SKILLS

All characters begin play with 3 background skills from any skill category and whatever bonus skills they receive from their chosen character class or classes. Characters with an intelligence of 8 or lower subtract their intelligence penalty from their initial number of background skills and, as a result, may begin play with no background skills if their intelligence is 3 or lower. Regardless of their intelligence penalty, characters do not lose any bonus skills gained from their chosen class or classes. Those with an exceptional intelligence score (13 or greater) may chose a number of additional knowledge skills, including knowledge (language) skills, equal to their intelligence modifier.

In most instances, excepting knowledge (language) skills, these skills allow characters to add their level to any ability score checks related to their chosen skills. All skills are grouped into four broad categories that cover a number of related skills: craft skills, knowledge skills, performance skills and profession skills. A player is free to choose more than one skill from a given skill category and should choose skills that reflect the characters upbringing and class training.
SKILL CATEGORIES & DESCRIPTIONS
Craft: All craft skills involve the creation of a functional (or consumable) item from raw materials. Skilled craftsmen typically learn their skills as apprentices to master craftsmen.
Craft skills include (but are not limited to): armorsmith, blacksmith, bookbinder, bowyer/fletcher, brewer, carpenter, cart/wheelwright, cobbler, cook/baker, jeweler/lapidary, mason, siege engineer, shipwright, tailor/weaver, tanner/leatherworker, and weaponsmith.

Use of this skill allows the character to appraise the craftsmanship and value of items directly related to their craft with a +2 bonus. In addition, given time and adequate materials, the character can repair or create such items. Craft skill checks are usually intelligence checks, though other abilities (such as dexterity) may come to bear when crafting items.

Repair costs vary depending upon the amount of damage done to the item, while (as a general rule) a character may craft an item for half of the listed cost. The DM is the final arbiter of what materials are available and the costs accrued in crafting an item.
Knowledge: Knowledge skills reflect the interests, studies and/or upbringing of the player character. Knowledge skills are limited in their scope and are varied in their application. Some, such as knowledge (etiquette) or a knowledge (chosen language), may aid in social situations while others may help characters identify items, map locations or the type of mushroom that the poisoned halfling thief just consumed.

Knowledge checks are typically intelligence checks, though successful use of a knowledge skill may aid other skill checks (i.e. a successful knowledge (etiquette) check may grant a +2 bonus to a characters charisma check while at court or a knowledge (nature) check may grant a +2 bonus to characters wisdom check to determine direction or to a rangers survival check).
Etiquette: This skill affords the character knowledge of a specific racial and/or cultural groups customs, social hierarchies and behavioral norms. Use of this skill may help a group of characters avoid social gaffs while at court or determine the proper mode of addressing a village elder.
Geography: This skill provides a basic knowledge of a specific kingdom or regions topography, trade routes and borders. The larger the area covered by this skill, the less the character knows about specific regional features.
History: Historical knowledge of a certain region or cultural group is gained through this skill. This knowledge of a peoples origins, historical events and figures, as well as of their legends, provides a window into the mindset of that group.
Language: All characters begin play with the ability to speak one or more languages, as detailed in their racial description. Those who choose knowledge (language) as a background skill begin play with additional starting languages.
Nature: This skill imparts a specialized knowledge of a particular environment (aquatic, forest, marsh, hill and mountains, plains) and climate (arctic, desert subtropical, temperate, tropical).

With an intelligence check, a character with this skill can identify plants and animals from that environment and climate accurately. This identification allows the skilled character to determine the species of the plant or animal and the special qualities or abilities of the species.

Rangers and druids begin play with knowledge of their own environment and climate.

Druids using this skill are automatically successful when in their native environment and climate. In unfamiliar environments, the druid must succeed at an intelligence check to successfully use this ability.
Religion (culture): This skill provides knowledge of a faiths mythology and rituals. It allows a character to know of the religions hierarchal structure and affords the character an understanding of that faiths tenets and practices.

All clerics begin play with knowledge of their own cultures religion in addition to their chosen background skills.
Performance: A skilled performer is valued by commoners and highborn alike for their ability to provide a diversion from the cares and woes of daily life.
Characters must choose a type of performance in which they are skilled: acting, buffoonery, dancing, oratory, play (instrument), singing, etc. Bards, on the other hand, begin play skilled in all manner of performance arts.

A character may make a performance skill check (usually a charisma check, though dancing and playing an instrument may involve dexterity checks) in order to earn a few copper coins (perhaps silver, if the audience is particularly wealthy) or earn their keep at an inn (with modifiers and other considerations being worked out by the DM).

If the perform skill is used to entertain ones hosts or other, non-hostile, NPCs a successful check may positively influence the audiences reaction to the performer (giving the performer a +2 bonus to charisma checks).
Profession: Profession skills allow a character to earn a living through the specialized knowledge and techniques of their chosen vocation. In general a character with a background profession is assumed to have left their past profession behind in order to take up a career as a professional adventurer, mercenary, agent of their church, etc.

Some professions that characters may choose from include: animal handler, artist, butcher, clerk, farmer, fisher, gambler, healer/barber, herbalist, hostler/barkeep, hunter, miner/collier, painter/limner, sailor, scribe, trader/barterer, trapper, etc.

These profession skills would allow the character to bring their professional knowledge to bear, where appropriate, or even ply their trade once they have settled down. Profession skill checks are usually wisdom checks though, at times, may involve other ability scores (as the situation warrants). The following are example of professions that may prove useful to an adventuring party:
Animal Handler: The character must choose a type of animal they have knowledge of (horses, pack animals, dogs, falcons, etc) and can raise and train animals of that type given the proper amount of uninterrupted time. Trained riders typically have the profession (animal handler: horses) skill. Cavaliers and paladins begin play skilled in this profession.
Healer: Healers may tend to wounded characters in order to staunch blood flow by making a wisdom check, just as other characters can, but are more effective than unskilled healers. Characters under the long-term care of a healer heal twice as fast as though who heal naturally.
Herbalist: Herbalists are able to aid healers (as well as cooks and alchemists) in their trades. When called for, a successful herbalist check grants a +2 bonus to another related skill check.
Mountaineer: This skill allows the character to add a +5 bonus to dexterity checks made when scaling natural, unworked stone inclines with climbing gear. Without such gear, the bonus is reduced to +2.

The character climbs at of his Movement Rate.
Trapper: Skilled trappers are able to build, locate and disable simple traps (nets, snares or pits) in a wilderness environment. Trappers snares and pits are usually designed to capture or incapacitate game animals and deliver no more than 1d4 points of damage (halved if the creature trapped makes a successful dexterity saving throw).

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[cturnitsa]

Ahhhh skills. The players love em - I like em. Feats - definitely not, but skills, yes.

We use a modified version of 2e NWP for our skill system. I basically took the categories from the 2e PHB, and added a few more categories and a few more NWPs from the "brown books" (Complete Ranger, etc), and came up with a list of categories and the skills the fall under them.

Then the players get the number of NWP slots as per 2e PHB (with bonus for INT, and additional slots at different levels based on class). They can buy any skills in their own category for cost (in terms of slots - most cost 1 slot, some more complex or time consuming - to learn - skills takes 2 or more slots), and skills in other categories for +1 to cost.

This works pretty well.

The 2e NWP listing gave each skill a characteristic it was based on - this becomes the base ability for SIEGE checks to resolve the skill. Important safety tip - if you want to be good at your skills, pick PRIMARY ATTRIBUTE skills. Example: A Dwarf Fighter (Primes - STR and CON) isn't going to be nearly as good at Herbalism (INT) as an Elf Wizard (Primes - INT and DEX).

As an example, here are the categories allowed for each class under this system:

Fighter - Warrior, General

Ranger - Warrior, Wizard, General

Barbarian - Warrior, General, Naturalist

Knight - Warrior, Chivalry, General

Paladin - Warrior, Priest, General

Wizard - Wizard, General

Illusionist - Wizard, Performer, General

Cleric - Priest, General

Druid - Priest, Naturalist, General

Monk - Priest, Rogue, General

Rogue - Rogue, General

Assassin - Rogue, General

Bard - Rogue, Warrior, Performer, General

I will get this whole system posted somewhere sometime soon.

Chuck
http://chuckgame.blogspot.com/

[Mythago]

this seems a soild take on skills too - need those brown books tho - pretty cheap as pdfs on rpgnow etc

[cturnitsa]

Some time ago, I actually posted my Skill System (which is based heavily on the 2nd Ed AD&D NWP rules).

It is available as a PDF in the right hand column of my gaming blog -
http://chuckgame.blogspot.com/

See you soon!

Chuck
_________________
Chuck

Gaming with Chuck
http://chuckgame.blogspot.com/