Troll Lord Games

I'm currently working on a skill list that's basically modified from 3e, but I'm also using stuff from the Rules Cyclopedia. For those who use some kind of skill system, do you use skills that do the same thing as a class ability? I'm trying to decide whether I should have skills such as Climb, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, and Survival, which are all class abilities.

I don't believe I want to let a non-rogue move silently as well as a rogue, which would be the case I allowed it as a skill and the character put skill points in it. Nor do I really want to take abilities away from classes and replace them with skills.

I think I could almost get away with not having any of those abilities available as skills except for Climb, which to some degree should be accessible to all characters. But, currently my skill list has things like Balance, Endurance, Jump, and Swim. I'm starting to think those might be better left to attribute checks instead of skills, especially if my skill list turns out worthwhile without them. Climb seems similar to them, so maybe it could also be left to attribute checks, and only certain classes would get to add their level to climb checks?

Any thoughts?

I think you're starting to see why skills in an archetype-driven game are not needed...
What I would do, is this: a "skill" is simply something you can learn. Once learned, you write it down. Once it is written down, anytime it could be used, you apply it. When its applied, you get some bonus... I'd say +3. Anyone can learn a skill, even if its already an ability (that way, for example, a thief... err... rogue... can get more stealthy through specialization.) Because of the nature of the SIEGE Engine, said "skills" add level - this naturally makes them improve with the character, and prevents something like a wizard being better than a thief at moving silently unless you're talking a 20th level wizard and a 1st level thief.

Ozric wrote:
I think I could almost get away with not having any of those abilities available as skills except for Climb, which to some degree should be accessible to all characters. But, currently my skill list has things like Balance, Endurance, Jump, and Swim. I'm starting to think those might be better left to attribute checks instead of skills, especially if my skill list turns out worthwhile without them. Climb seems similar to them, so maybe it could also be left to attribute checks, and only certain classes would get to add their level to climb checks?

Any thoughts?

My thought is: Why is it climbing specifically that causes so many problems? I've been forced to comment on it a dozen times or more on other forums. Often, someone will say "How stupid, only 'such-and-such' can climb a tree!" Your question also comes up.

Two classes exist already which get to add their level to their climbing checks - Rogues and Rangers. Anyone else can try it, or even do it without a roll if it's a minor task. But if you need to roll for it, only Rangers and Rogues get to add their level. Everyone else, straight roll.

Quote:
I think you're starting to see why skills in an archetype-driven game are not needed... Wink

Too true.

Also this is covered in the PHB (pg. 112). If it is in-class the PC adds his class level to the roll, otherwise the CK doesn't allow it or doesn't allow the PC to add his level. Thus both a wizard and a rogue can attempt to move silently, but the rogue gets a bonus to do it because it is in-class.

If you want to use a skill system which overlaps the class abilities, perhaps you might consider completely replacing class abilities with your skill list. Then, rather than get a several class abilities, a PC of a given class starts out with a certain level in the appropriate skills. You would probably also need to devise a way for in-class skills to acquired more cheaply/easily than out-of-class skills. Thus everyone would be able to get the move silently skill, but rogues would still always be better at it.

been looking at skills too. Some excellent wise responses on this hread so far imo.

Currently C&C classes have a mix of abilities (e.g caste spells or back stab etc) and skills (e.g. climb, survival etc)

Serlaren is on to it re a flat bonus mechanic - this is I feel similar in approach to castle Zygag's secondary skills options. I like the skill bundle apporaoch to this (inspired by lejendary adventure for sure). But, I dont like the seperate XP tracking in that option. So one needs to bring in some kind of level based allowance (aka slots?) for getting your new/enhanced skill rating that can be applied to a partivcular activity type action.

Otherwise you do really need a straight skill system - just port over 3.5...The attraction for this is that rogues can come in more flavours than vanilla.

I have Star wars SAGA edition - this has codified actions into skill bundles a bit more and is an attractive design - simpler and faster to play. maybe soem scope there too.

I currently am groping towards a hybrid mechanic which grants a flat bonus (+2) but also could bring in a level bonus if its a class skill/ability or 1/2 level bonus if its not. Use 3.5 for class skill list as as a working base list. Characters get to choose a number of those as trained or primary class skills (+2 plus level). Or you can swap a primary class skill with two secondary class skill choices (that +1 plus 1/2 level)

I could go on.

C&C does officially have four tiers of difficulty-easy, difficult, very difficult, and Heroic.

Easy is a CL in the 1-5 range, Difficult is 6 to 10, very difficult is 11 to 15, and heroic is anything higher.

So skills that are a class skill, for non class characters taking it, simply have them always having an additional modifier in the "Difficult" range. That way the Archetype Class will always have a 5 point (to as high as 10 point) edge over other characters that take the skill.

Not perfect, but does maintain a significant difference between the class and everyone else, but allows them to both add their levels to their checks.
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I'm not a big codified-skill-list guy, but my players requested them, so I gave in. We use the RC general skills in our game with some modifications. Characters start with 4+int bonus in skills and gain a new one every four levels. Skills are performed by a SIEGE check. There are no skill points; I don't think skill points mesh very well with the SIEGE engine unless you put a lot of work into reworking the system. Taking a skill a second time, however, gives a +3 bonus to checks. Any skill can be used untrained (if the DM agrees your character should be able to do it), but you don't get to add your level to the check.

As far as thief skills go, I believe the only one in the RC is stealth, which functions the same as move silently, but the skill-user must pick a specific terrain. I like leaving that skill in there to allow ranger-type characters to be played. (I have no ranger class, just fighter, magic-user, cleric, thief, monk, and bard). I don't think this skill steps on the thief's toes for two reasons: first, if a thief takes the stealth skill, he receives a +3 bonus to move silently attempts in that terrain; and second, if a players wants to soak up his first seven skill slots (that's 12th level if he has no int bonus) so he can move silently like a thief, he can go right ahead.

With regard to climbing, we use the mountaineering skill from the RC, which is only useful for cliff faces and mountains and only then if the character is using ropes, pitons, or other climbing gear. I suppose scaling walls like a thief is possible for any character if the DM agrees it can be done, but they certainly wouldn't get to add their level.

I also enforce an penalty to dexterous actions equal to armor class - 12, so heavily-armored types will have difficulty with these sorts of things.

I basically allow my PCs to attempt anything if it fits with their background (ex. A PC that grow up in a city, can gather info, has some kind of street smarts, and knows the basics of tailing some one. However he wouldn't know how to track or survive in the wilderness.). I allow a roll without level added, including abilities that fall under a classes purview. Plus, I use secondary skills from 1e, which allows the addition of level if it is something associated with their skill.

R-
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Rigon o' the Lakelands, Baron of The Castles & Crusades Society
The Book of the Mind

I would suggest using the secondary skills available for free as a pdf document on the TLG website. They were designed by Gary Gygax so as to be more of "skill bundles" (in the LA style), to avoid the usual overlapping between class abilities and "fine grained" skills.

They work wonderfully well, and they are MUCH better than the 3.x skill list.

Our group enjoys the simplicity of C&C and nobody wants to deal with skills when they are so unnecessary. It really puzzles me why people want to add something you don't need to C&C. The only thing I add is a bundle-style option, which is mostly narrative and basically survival options that depend on the character's background.

It goes something like this. At character creation the player tells me where they came from, what sort of background they have and where they want their character to go. From that we tailor a notion more than an actual skill set that is used almost without thought. There is a player of a fighter who liked the idea of being adept at sea, being brought up in a coastal region. He writes it down and receives a bonus when doing anything around water. It is that simple and it works seamlessly. The player gets to bring in a little extra flavor to the game and they get a bonus to a theme that they choose. No skill lists, nothing to write down but a simple note on a character sheet.
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pactmaster wrote:
It goes something like this. At character creation the player tells me where they came from, what sort of background they have and where they want their character to go. From that we tailor a notion more than an actual skill set that is used almost without thought. There is a player of a fighter who liked the idea of being adept at sea, being brought up in a coastal region. He writes it down and receives a bonus when doing anything around water. It is that simple and it works seamlessly. The player gets to bring in a little extra flavor to the game and they get a bonus to a theme that they choose. No skill lists, nothing to write down but a simple note on a character sheet.

You just described my dream scenario. If my players weren't so insistent about having a bunch of skills, that's exactly how I would play.

I don't really create a skills list. I tell the players to create their own list. 10 skills plus the INT modifier. They typically pull from sources I am very familiar with anyways, such as 3E.
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Tank wrote:
You just described my dream scenario. If my players weren't so insistent about having a bunch of skills, that's exactly how I would play.

Ask them to at least give it a try, playing the game is so smooth. A one-off with new characters set up this way might get them to consider it. All it takes is a little communication (what the game is all about). There are scads of games out there with skill lists and similar mechanics, but running C&C with an option like this really lets us get the most game out of our time. The game becomes much more descriptive and vivid when the players don't need to glance at their character sheets as much.
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Deserve has nothing to do with it, if you think you're entitled. You're not.

--Stephen Chenault

Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens.

J. R. R. Tolkien

pactmaster wrote:
Ask them to at least give it a try, playing the game is so smooth. A one-off with new characters set up this way might get them to consider it. All it takes is a little communication (what the game is all about). There are scads of games out there with skill lists and similar mechanics, but running C&C with an option like this really lets us get the most game out of our time. The game becomes much more descriptive and vivid when the players don't need to glance at their character sheets as much.

You know, I just finished running a mini-campaign with no hard-and-fast skills, and I asked what they wanted next time. Most of the players missed their skills, so compromise is the name of the game.

Thanks for the replies, everyone.

Personally I'd love to just run the game as written and rely on SIEGE checks for skill checks, but some of my potential players really like spending points on "builds" for their characters. For that reason, going with something like 1e's secondary skill system, or a skill system that gives you a flat bonus to checks where a skill applies, probably wouldn't quite work.

I think it's a valid desire, so my goal is to implement a skill system that's mechanically simple, is not intertwined with other systems such as feats, and allows the player to have some points to spend how they like each level and feel like they have customization options for their characters. I'm pretty satisfied with the mechanics I've come up with, and I'm pretty satisfied with my skill list so far.

The part that I have trouble with is skills that are also class abilities. Should a Bard who takes Climb be as skilled at climbing? What does it mean if a Rogue wants to take the Climb skill? Maybe a Rogue who wants to spend skill points on Climb gets a bonus to their class ability check? But then how would that work when the skill can go up every level?

Maybe it would work better if my skill list only contains skills that aren't class abilities of any kind? Characters could still attempt those actions, but only the appropriate classes could add their level to the check?

Try this:

Montague is a Rogue who chooses climb as a trained skill so he gets +2 trained bonus plus 1 per level as class ability bonus when making a siege roll.

His twin Samual is also a Rogue but does not choose climb as a skill - its still a class ability so he will get a straight + 1 per level siege chech mod

Douglas is a Bard who chose Climb as a trained skill he gets a +1 trained bonus plus 1/2 Level (Round up) to his siege rolls for climb.

Basically training in a skill gives +1 plus 1/2 Level (round up) to siege rolls.

Training in a class ability skill gives +2 plus level to siege rolls.

this allows for character creation to use skills and keeps class abilites ahead in performance terms. Character PRIMES are still hugelt influential to a characters performance re skills and siege rolls etc.

All charcters get 4+int bonus skill choices at level one and another per 3 levels thereafter plus GM fiat/narrative bonuses i.e. studt with mark the woodsmean for 6 months come away with a +2 bonus to woodsmen activity.

I personally still favour some initial ability to vary the skills set used as class abilities somewhat akin to 3.5 - so one could get a thiefly rogue, trickster rogue, survivalist barbarian etc etc. And additionally use the castle zygag secondary skill bundles idea as it ties with the notion of general background developement very nicely. But I will unlink from seperate zxp development as just use a skill level as per 2ne ed NWP slots plus GM fita/narrative bonuses.

That sounds like a pretty good system, Mythago. Unfortunately for me, I feel like I need to work in a system where characters get some skill points each level to spend on either increasing skills they already have, or learning new ones. Mechanically the system I'm trying to work out is very similar to 3e's, except the skill rank bonus can't go higher than the character's level. I'm trying to intrigue people into trying the game who don't like the sound of 4e because apparently it treats skills like Star Wars Saga does...where you're either trained in a skill or you're not, and if you are, you get a flat +5 bonus.

But the more I contemplate skills, the more I think that generally the skills which are also class abilities are mostly things that everyone should have some capacity for doing...such as Climb, Listen, Move Silently, etc. I'm thinking maybe I can just leave those as regular SIEGE checks, and just have a list of skills that contain only things that aren't also class abilities...skills like Appraise, Craft, Balance, Knowledge, Language, Ride, etc.

Hopefully such an arrangement would make characters feel like they have some choices, without intruding on the abilities of other classes, and not creating the question of what happens when a rogue wants to learn the Climb skill, but can already do it because of this class ability.

I think just saying all skills covered by a class taken by another class should just be CL+3, and allowed to add level for SIEGE checks, just like the class does.

That way you have a built in 3 point superiority to the class over anyone else who takes the skill, and a simple rule formula to remember.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

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The 4E list may provide some insight. It has been significantly cut down from the 3.5 skill list, but provides more guidance than a free-form system as BtB C&C suggests.

Treebore wrote:
I think just saying all skills covered by a class taken by another class should just be CL+3, and allowed to add level for SIEGE checks, just like the class does.

That way you have a built in 3 point superiority to the class over anyone else who takes the skill, and a simple rule formula to remember.

yep that would work ...pretty neat...similar to Chimera rpg which uses a slightly variable penalty depending on tyhe action /skill being attempted.

Yeah, that sounds pretty good actually. Although I might try it with a +3 bonus to the class ability instead of a CL+3 to the skill...the idea being that a task doesn't become inherently more difficult because there classes who can do it better.

How about this:
Skill list:

Acrobatics (Dex)

Boating (Dex)

Climbing (Str)

Healing (Int/Wis)

Influence Others (Cha)

Knowledge*: ______ (Int)

Gadgetry (Dex)

Perception (Int/Wis)

Perform (Cha)

Riding (Dex)

Stealth (Dex)

Streetwise (Int)

Tradecraft*: ______ (Varies)

Wilderness Craft (Wis)

Swimming (Str)

* Skills marked with an asterisk can generally only be attempted by skilled practitioners

Rules:

* Skill selection: Characters begin at 1st level with 3 + Int mod skill selections; further skills can only be added by selecting the New Skill Feat (or some other means as determined by the CK). Any class may select any skill, although a character will be more adept at skills associated with their prime attributes (see below).

* Unskilled attempts: Characters lacking a skill, may still attempt tasks associated with that skill, using a CB of 18 regardless of whether the character has the prime associated with that skill. Character level is NOT added; only attribute and situational modifiers apply.

i.e.: d20 + attribute mod > 18 +/- situational modifier

* Skilled attempts: Characters with a given skill may attempt tasks associated with that skill, using a CB of either 12 (if skill is associated with a prime attribute) or 18 (if skill is associated with a non-prime attribute). When attempting a task for which a character has an appropriate skill, the character may add half their level (round down) and their attribute modifier to the SIEGE check.

i.e.: d20 + attribute mod + 0.5*level > 12/18 +/- situational modifier

Skills that closely duplicate a class skill provide a flat +2 bonus to the class ability SIEGE roll.

Ozric wrote:
Thanks for the replies, everyone.

Maybe it would work better if my skill list only contains skills that aren't class abilities of any kind? Characters could still attempt those actions, but only the appropriate classes could add their level to the check?

Yep. It actually works since that is all most monsters get to do anyways. Not to mention most NPC classes. So HD rarely plays into these kind of checks. Its the only area where I do not use HD/level as my baseline CL. I purely use the 4 tiers of difficulty for this.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

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Originally I thought I'd just use the skill list from the Rules Cyclopedia, but as I started working on it, it seemed better to go with something inspired by 3E, with a few ideas borrowed from True20. Currently my skill list looks like this...

Acrobatics (Dex); Armor Penalty

Appraise (Int)

Climb (Str); Armor Penalty

Craft: (Int)

Deceive (Cha)

Disguise (Cha)

Escape (Dex); Armor Penalty

Forgery (Int)

Gather Information (Cha)

Heal (Wis); Trained Only

Intimidate (Str)

Jump (Str); Armor Penalty

Knowledge: (Int); Trained Only

Notice (Wis)

Perform: (Cha)

Persuade (Cha)

Profession: (Wis); Trained Only

Ride (Dex)

Sense Motive (Wis)

Stealth (Dex); Armor Penalty

Survival (Wis)

Swim (Str); Armor Penalty

Track (Wis)

Train Animal (Cha); Trained Only

I might condense it a little. I'm not convinced that Gather Information really needs to be a skill, for example.

Anyway, I'm thinking that 1st level characters get 6 + (Int bonus) skill points to buy skills. A skill point buys a skill bonus of +1 in a skill, and skill bonuses can't be higher than a character's level, so a starting character with no Int bonus would have 6 skills, with a +1 bonus in each.

A skill check is just a normal SIEGE check where the skill bonus is used instead of the character's level.

Some skills are also class abilities for certain classes. I wanted the class abilities to be better than the corresponding skills. Also, it seemed reasonable that if, say, a rogue were to take the Climb skill even though they already have Climb as a class ability, there might be some benefit to taking the skill.

To handle this, I'm thinking that when a class has a skill maxed out for their current level that is also a class ability that they have, they receive a +2 bonus when they use that class ability. For example, if a 3rd level rogue had a full 3 points invested in the Climb skill, they'd get the +2 bonus when using their Climb class ability. When he reaches 4th level, he'd need to spend a point on the Climb skill in order to keep the bonus.

I think this is better than my original system where all class abilities that had a corresponding skill got a free +2 bonus. Also, I didn't really want a list that excluded some classes from certain skills. I kinda like how if a ranger wants to Move Silently in urban environments, he can learn to do so, but he'll never be as good as a rogue or assassin.

What do people think? Will it break anything? Is it too complicated? Is there not enough payoff for someone like an assassin who keeps his Disguise skill maxed out?

If I were to use skills, I might get tempted to grab Lejendary Adventure.

Pazio did a nice job reworking skills

thay had a simple list and Characters get x number of skills at 1st and 1 skill every x level.

There are no skill points - its all level based

PS- the only time you cannot add a Characters Level to an Ability check is if it is the ability of another class....

Where did Paizo rework skills?

in the pathfinder "CoreBook"

I must examine this product. Thanks!

One of the things that I think that 4e D&D is doing right is its skill list. It's small and to the point.

Each stat stat has a few skills attached-- and each skill has multple uses:

Acrobatics: (Balance, Escape Artist, Tumble) Use this skill to test your balance on narrow or unstable surfaces, to escape from a grab or from restraints, and (if youre trained) to reduce your damage when you fall.

Arcana: (Knowledge Arcane, Spellcraft) You have knowledge about magic and magical effects, and (if youre trained) you know how to detect a persistent magical effect.

Athletics: (Climb, swim, jump) Use this skill to climb, swim, or jump.

Bluff: (Bluff) Use this skill to make whats false appear to be true, fast-talk a guard, con a merchant, or tell lies.

Diplomacy: (Diplomacy) Use this skill to influence other with tact and social grace, change opinions, inspire good will, and to negotiate a deal in good faith.

Dungeoneering: (Knowledge Dungeoneering) You have knowledge about forging a path through a dungeon complex, recognizing dungeon hazards, and finding food in the Underdark.

Endurance: Use this skill to stave off ill effects and to push beyond normal physical limits.

Heal: (Heal) Use this skill to administer first aid, stabilize ad dying character, grant a saving throw, or treat a disease.

History: (Knowledge History) You have knowledge about history, including significant events, legends, customs, and traditions.

Insight: (Sense Motive) Use this skill to discern intent and decipher body language, making a best guess as to a targets motives, attitudes, and truthfulness.

Intimidate: (Intimidate) Use this skill to influence others through hostile actions and overt threats. (Intimidate)

Nature: (Knowledge Nature, Tracking, etc) You have knowledge related to finding your way through the wilderness, recognizing natural hazards, and living off the land.

Perception: (Listen, Search, Spot) Use this skill to notice clues, spots imminent dangers, and location hidden objects.

Religion: (Knowledge Religion) You have knowledge of religious traditions.

Stealth: (Hide, Move Silently) Use this skill to hide and move silently.

Streetwise: You know how to get the lay of the land in an urban setting.

Thievery: (Disable Device, Open Lock, Slight of Hand) Use this skill to disable traps, open locks, pick pockets, and perform other slight of hand.

The number of choices a character gets for skills is 4+INT modifier. Anyone can choose any skill regardless of class-- if the fighter wants to waste one of his slots studying to be able to identify spells even if he cannot cast them, that is his business.

If the skill is also a class ability (like "thievery" for rogues), a member of that class who takes the skill gets +2 to their rolls for that skill. This means that a rogue might min/max by taking Thievery, Stealth, Athletics, and Perception to get +2 to a bunch of class abilities-- or could do the opposite, taking a bunch of other skills-- Streetwise, Insight, Bluff, Dungeoneering-- to make their character more diverse.

Anyone can try any skill-- but a skill you don't have and are 'defaulting" with is not prime (regardless of ability score). Likewise, a skill that you are trained in is prime (regardless of ability score). This means that ability score primes are saved for saves, class abilities, & attribute checks. So you could play an Elf Ranger w/ STR prime, CHA prime-- and not suck-- you would simply pick Stealth, Perception, Nature, and Heal as skills-- making those rolls prime. And because they correspond w/ class abilities, they also grant +2 on the checks.
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