Troll Lord Games

One issue I've been having with C&C is the adding level factor. The problem there is that at mid-to-high levels, it becomes utterly impossible for anyone but the proper specialist to even attempt a task. For example, a 1st level fighter with DEX prime and a +1 DEX modifier can try to sneak past some goblin sentries with decent odds of success. But as soon as the Challenge Level becomes 9 or higher, he has ZERO chance of success, and the odds shrink by 5% each challenge level, so the chances are <20% with a CL of 5 or higher. Thus, our "Sneaky" fighter is SOL once ogres and the like appear on the scene.

Another problem is the very low odds that most first level characters have to save vs. most effects. A typical character will be very good at one save (their class requisite), decent at another (their second prime), and have a <20% chance to save with the other four.

What do folks think of this alternate system, adapted from Star Wars Saga/4th Edition:
All skills/saves/task resolution is based on 1d20 + ABILITY MODIFIER + 5 (if prime) + 1/2 LEVEL/HD.

Moreover, if a task is "in class," i.e., related to a character's profession or race, they gain a flat +5 bonus.

All saving throws are automatically considered "in class" for all characters.

As you can see in the examples below, this significantly increases the odds for characters to make saving throws that they're not good at in the low levels. In the mid-levels, odds are similar but slightly in the player's favor across the board. At the high levels, characters who are "proficient" (i.e., have something prime) but don't have it "in class" are significantly better off -- solving our high level fighter who has devoted significant resources (i.e., a prime) having NO chance to sneak.
Living with the Rule:
Note that "proficient" means prime with a +1 ability score modifier

"In Class" means it is something you can add level to
1st Level

BtB, proficient, in class: +8

Mod System, proficient, in class: +11

BtB, proficient, NOT in class: +7

Mod System, proficient, NOT in class: +6

BtB, not proficient, not in class: +0

Mod System, not proficient, not in class: +0

BtB, not proficient, in class (Saves): +1

Mod System, not proficient, in class (Saves): +5
5th Level

BtB, proficient, in class: +12

Mod System, proficient, in class: +13

BtB, proficient, NOT in class: +7

Mod System, proficient, NOT in class: +8

BtB, not proficient, not in class: +0

Mod System, not proficient, not in class: +2

BtB, not proficient, in class (Saves): +5

Mod System, not proficient, in class (Saves): +7
10th Level

BtB, proficient, in class: +17

Mod System, proficient, in class: +16

BtB, proficient, NOT in class: +7

Mod System, proficient, NOT in class: +11

BtB, not proficient, not in class: +0

Mod System, not proficient, not in class: +5

BtB, not proficient, in class (Saves): +10

Mod System, not proficient, in class (Saves): +10
Higher Level Implications:

C&C starts to break down much above name level anyways. If you continue this system, then characters will begin to fall behind the expected power curve, especially for saves. It might not be out of line to give characters a +2 bonus to all checks once they hit around 12th level. That should keep things in whack for some time.

nittanytbone14 wrote:
One issue I've been having with C&C is the adding level factor. The problem there is that at mid-to-high levels, it becomes utterly impossible for anyone but the proper specialist to even attempt a task. For example, a 1st level fighter with DEX prime and a +1 DEX modifier can try to sneak past some goblin sentries with decent odds of success. But as soon as the Challenge Level becomes 9 or higher, he has ZERO chance of success, and the odds shrink by 5% each challenge level, so the chances are <20% with a CL of 5 or higher. Thus, our "Sneaky" fighter is SOL once ogres and the like appear on the scene.

I deal with this by making lots of "skills" into "everyman abilities" that all characters get to add their level adjustment to, just through the virtue of them being adventurers. I'll group them by ability score:

STR:

Feats of strength

Jump

Swim

INT:

Appraise (rough value)

Estimate (distance, quantity, etc)

Recall information

Search

WIS:

Perception check (listen, spot)

Ride (trained mount)

Use intuition (read persons motives, intuit general direction)

DEX:

Athletics (catch, throw, tumble)

Balance (on narrow or slippery surface)

Climb (rough ledges and natural slopes)

Hide

Move silently

CON:

Test of Endurance

Hold Breath

CHR:

Bluff

Haggle

Intimidation

Persuasion

Classes with the Move Silently, Hide, Listen and Climb class abilities get an additional, +5 bonus to such checks (in addition to the +5 bonus they get if their relevant ability score is prime).

The following skill/ability checks require a character to have the appropriate background skill (all characters in my game get 3 background skills) or class ability. If the character doesn't have the ability or skill, they can't use perform the action, unless the CK allows it. Even then, they NEVER get to add their level bonus to the check.

INT:

Bardic Knowledge is a class ability

Craft (type of object) is a background skill

Decipher Script is a class ability

Knowledge (specific subject) is a background skill

Traps (disarm, find, set) is a class ability

Poison is a class ability

WIS:

Profession (type) is a background skill

Ride (untrained or unusual mount, riding a trained mount into combat) requires the animal handling (type of mount) skill or the horsemanship class ability

Survival is a class ability

Track is a class ability

DEX:

Play Instrument (type) is a background skill

Open Locks is a class ability

Sleight of Hands is a class ability

CHR:

Perform (type of performance) is a background skill or class ability (for bards)

What do folks think of this alternate system, adapted from Star Wars Saga/4th Edition:

All skills/saves/task resolution is based on 1d20 + ABILITY MODIFIER + 5 (if prime) + 1/2 LEVEL/HD.

Moreover, if a task is "in class," i.e., related to a character's profession or race, they gain a flat +5 bonus.

All saving throws are automatically considered "in class" for all characters.

I think this is sound thinking. I 'i suggest a flat +3 bonus with + level (instead of plus 1/2 level) for 'in class' skills.
NEXT QUESTION for this thread is should all classes have a set number of in class skills to start with from a pre set selection depending on class - this is as per star wars saga rpg ...?

What I did was to let all characters add 1/2 level to any ol' check - I figure that a wizard who has been dungeon-crawling for six levels ought to know a thing or two about stealth, even though it's not his specialty, and thus get +3 + ability mods. There's no risk that he's going to infringe on the rogue's nitch, but he's at least got some basic capability. That rogue, meanwhile, still gets to add all his levels to his 'move silently' check, because it's specifically called out as a class skill.

I have yet to deal with characters high enough level for the difference in 1/2 level vs all levels to get really significant, but for low to mid-level play it seems to be working out decently. Or at least, so far my players have a perception that they're not as helpless and useless as they would otherwise be, and to me that's the most important thing.

Mythago wrote:
NEXT QUESTION for this thread is should all classes have a set number of in class skills to start with from a pre set selection depending on class - this is as per star wars saga rpg ...?

I see two broad ways to handle it.

(A) The default C&C method, which is very free form. Decide (1) should a character know something about it based on class, race, or background and (2) which ability score its tied to. Pro: Very flexible. Con: Leads to arguing, some players not satisfied with level of "fuzziness," requires experienced GM and assertive/creative players

(B) Using a skill list. I've been toying with a few (thrown a few at the bottom of this list as brainstorming material). Then questions arise -- how many skills should everyone get? Should some classes get more than others? How many more? Do you represent racial bonuses via training (i.e. "All elves are trained in Nature") or with bonuses (i.e., "All elves get +2 on Nature checks, which stacks with training if they're also a druid/ranger/whatever)? Should some skills be restricted to certain classes?

Further questions -- should an ability score be tied to an attribute, or can it float depending on circumstance?

For example: Say you have a skill called Subterfuge. Could it not be tied to CHA to Bluff/Lie, DEX to sneak through the shadows, CON to conceal your wounds ("tough it out!"), INT to craft a forgery, or STR to fake out an opponent in melee combat?

Pros: More mechanical definition. Cons: More mechanical definition! Can end up being a straightjacket defining what characters can't do rather than what they can do. Categories are overly broad and thus meaningless or too narrow and thus the system becomes a straightjacket.

I'm not sure what approach is best. If going with the latter approach, my gut tells me that no one character should have more than ~7-9 skills at their disposal. More than that and they won't really be remembered. That means a list of 11-20 skills should be sufficient. More than 11-20 means that typical characters will be proficient in less than 1/3 of the skills, which means frustration as the system defines what you can't do more than it deifnes what you can do.

Here's some sample skill lists from other games and historical sources:
4E:

Acrobatics (Dex, Armor)

Arcana (Int)

Athletics (Str, Armor)

Bluff (Dex)

Endurance (Con)

Diplomacy (Cha)

Heal (Wis)

History (Int)

Insight (Wis)

Nature (Int)

Perception (Wis)

Religion (Int)

Stealth (Dex, Armor)

Streetwise (Cha)

Thievery (Dex)
The Seven Liberal Arts:
Trivium (artes sermocinales)

Logic

Grammar

Rhetoric
Quadrivium (artes reales or physic)

Arithmetic

Geometry

Music

Astronomy
The Seven Mechanical Arts:

Fabric-Making

Armament (stones, woods, metals, sands, and clays)

Commerce

Agriculture

Hunting

Medicine

Theatrics


The Skills of Knighthood

Riding

Tilting

Fencing

Wrestling

Running

Leaping

Spear-Throwing
Medieval Faculty

Philosophy/Theology

History

Law

Medicine

Nature

Alchemy (added for a fantasy setting)

Arcana (added for a fantasy setting)
FATE Categories

Knowledge

Perception

Craft

Physical

Subterfuge

Mundane

Social

Combat
Cicero's Liberal Arts

geometry, literature, poetry, natural science, ethics, and politics
The Seven Intelligences

Linguistic

Logical-Mathematical

Musical

Bodily-Kinesthetic

Interpersonal

Intrapersonal

Spatial

The main issue I have with alternate systems rests with the interpretation of how SIEGE works. SIEGE checks should only be done when there is some real potential for failure. So, it makes sense that even a CL0 task has a high chance of failure. Obviously, if one starts making checks "a la 3.x" for every action, then the system does not work anymore, since supposedly "easy" actions become quite difficult. So, overall, it is a matter of interpreting the system's workings.

Cheers,

Antonio

rabindranath72 wrote:
The main issue I have with alternate systems rests with the interpretation of how SIEGE works. SIEGE checks should only be done when there is some real potential for failure.

One could use a more defined skill system that requires rolls under similar circumstances to the SIEGE check, or one where the target number is so low for easy tasks that one will always pass barring extreme penalties. It works out to be the same, does it not?

nittanytbone14 wrote:
One could use a more defined skill system that requires rolls under similar circumstances to the SIEGE check, or one where the target number is so low for easy tasks that one will always pass barring extreme penalties. It works out to be the same, does it not?

Sure! My point was that many people introduce other system to "correct" the SIEGE system, whereas there is nothing to correct (once one has understood the basic principles).

Anyway, I like the above skill lists!