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Noble Class 
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Red Cap

Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 7:00 am
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Post Noble Class
Does anyone know of a C&C version of the noble class?

Thanks in advance.
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Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:27 am
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Maukling
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If it's the DL Noble you're looking at recreating, I don't see much difference in them and the C&C bard. Just change the fluff text and make a few minor changes:

Legend Lore can easily convert to Favor.

Drop decipher script and Fascinate in exchange for perhaps another class skill that fits with the noble's background. For Example, Lord Pinecone has always fancied himself an exceptional hunter. Years spent in the kingdom's preserve stalking it's elusive stag have made him an exceptional tracker.

The other Noble abilities (Inspire confidence, Inspire Greatness) the bard already has.


Fri Jul 21, 2006 3:41 am
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Renegade Mage
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I haven't seen the DL noble... but there was a decent one presented in the Wheel of Time D20 varient... But DangerDwarf is entirely right... with the way the Bard in C&C is set up, it could easily be adapted. I played one (in the Wheel of Time) and he was pretty much to spokesperson in the party (even if the party didn't wish him to be). He was just 'too' charasimatic with the kind of diplomacy and bluff skills to talk his way out of most circucumstances. Unfortunately, he was also a womanizing and gambling noble and also got the party into trouble as much as out... Role Playing is what made the character what he was.

I'd probably have a 'voice of authority' ability as opposed to the 'fascinate' ability but most of the effects could remain close to the same... he just wouldn't be singing a tune or playing an instrument...

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Fri Jul 21, 2006 4:36 am
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Lore Drake

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Considering his background, Dragonhelm is surely referring to the Dragonlance Noble
Well, I too thought about it, and pondered whether to add it to my Dragonlance Sourcebook, but I came to the conclusion that, more so than the barbarian (and not just in name), a "noble" is a thing that I think best handled by roleplaying. As serleran correctly notes, even a rogue can be ennobled. Furthermore, one could argue that not all nobles would have the abilities of a Noble class (inspire etc.); then, what class would they be given? In this case, reference to a social status would in any case be needed to handle nobles who are not Nobles.

So, I think it is more straightforward to directly deal with it as social status, more than anything else. I would take as guidelines the suggestions in M&T about titles, and serleran's above suggestions; which do not need a class ability at all; they would simply be consequences of the status.

Thinking of it, I might well put these ideas in my Dragonlance Sourcebook...

Cheers,

Antonio


Fri Jul 21, 2006 9:27 am
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Maukling
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Quote:
rabindranath72 wrote:
a "noble" is a thing that I think best handled by roleplaying. As serleran correctly notes, even a rogue can be ennobled. Furthermore, one could argue that not all nobles would have the abilities of a Noble class (inspire etc.); then, what class would they be given? In this case, reference to a social status would in any case be needed to handle nobles who are not Nobles.



I largely agree with your comments and don't personally find the Noble class to be a necessary one. However, that being said, I can see a few arguments for it.

The Noble, as a class, could easily represent training that some of high birth would realistically receive. The King's son is expected to have skill in the sword, but his lack of true dedication to it makes him less capable than a fighter or knight. To further the political goals of his land he is trained in oration and inspiring the masses. His sheer number of connections and "clingers-on" would lend him the "Favors" ability, etc.

Would this mean all people of noble birth are of this class? Nah, the martial king might have his son trained as a soldier. A particularly astute or pious son could seek training with a local wizards guild or join the church.

The Noble class however serves as an excellent archtype for nobility who receive "classical" education and training.


Fri Jul 21, 2006 10:38 am
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For the reasons DD mention above, I could see Noble as a class. But my thoughts is that the noble wouldn't have any skills/abilities other then diplomacy, educations, etc. If the noble was trained in the fighting arts, maybe he'd multi-class, fighter/noble.

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Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:33 pm
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Lore Drake

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I guess here too we face a "naming" problem. All the characteristics which have been mentioned above have more to do with politics than anything else.

Perhaps "Politician" would be a better name; and this I could easily see as a class. So, a noble Politician would be the equivalent of the Noble class (but not the other way round!). I could easily conceive a situation in which a noble has no political skills at all, either due to his character, or due to his culture (e.g. a barbarian culture whose only behavioral code is loot, pillage, burn).

So, the first son of a king trained in the "art of government" would be a Politician (with the further advantages of nobility, only dealt with through roleplaying and case-by-case rulings). If he was also interested in arms training, he could multiclass as a Fighter/Politician, as omote suggested.

Also the "classic" king's councillor would be a Politician.

Hmmm, I could actually create this class, after all...

Cheers,

Antonio


Sat Jul 22, 2006 7:54 am
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Red Cap

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Quote:
DangerDwarf wrote:
If it's the DL Noble you're looking at recreating, I don't see much difference in them and the C&C bard.



Yeah, sorry, I'm referring to the DL noble. I did notice that the bard is extremely similar.

Quote:
Quote:
Legend Lore can easily convert to Favor.



Just switch one ability for another?

Quote:
Quote:
Drop decipher script and Fascinate in exchange for perhaps another class skill that fits with the noble's background. For Example, Lord Pinecone has always fancied himself an exceptional hunter. Years spent in the kingdom's preserve stalking it's elusive stag have made him an exceptional tracker.



The DL noble gains a bonus skill already. Since I'm using a variant of 3e's skills in my games, I can keep that.

Quote:
Quote:
The other Noble abilities (Inspire confidence, Inspire Greatness) the bard already has.



This is what I'm afraid of - recreating the bard. I think it's a viable archetype insomuch as the barbarian is. We see a number of them in Dragonlance (Laurana, Alhana Starbreeze, Gilthas, Bakkard du Chagne, Selinda du Chagne, Pike Oakbone, etc.).

I think I'm going to compare with other noble variants out there and see what I can come up with.
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Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:23 pm
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Red Cap

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I've looked through several sources on nobles now, including the DLCS, Game of Thrones, Wheel of Time, and even Green Ronin's Nobles HB. While they all have certain things in common, I'm coming to the conclusion that they all mostly mimic the C&C bard.

So I don't think the noble will show up in my games. I didn't think it was exactly the best fit to begin with. I can sorta see the role, but most nobles I can think of multiclass anyway.

Thanks, everyone, for the words of advice.
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Sat Jul 29, 2006 4:23 am
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Red Cap

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Shadowfoot had an interesting noble class on the WOTC boards. It got some diplomatic abilities, the ability to charm/dominate at higher levels, and - the most clever "ability" in my opinion - an inheritance. Every few levels, a noble gets to inherit an heirloom - possibly a magic item, it's up to the GM. In order to get the heirloom, he has to maintain good relations with the aristocracy he belongs to, and he has to travel home. I'm sure it's not everyones cup of tea - and its 3E - but I liked it.


Wed Aug 02, 2006 4:03 am
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An Hierloom as an 'ability'? That's pretty cool. I like it!

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Wed Aug 02, 2006 4:47 am
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Could be sort of a 'coming of age' kind of a thing. When you turn ___, and now being of such an age to assume some of the family's ______, you receive this as a symbol of rank or authority within the family (house).

It could work, definately a good angle to promote a good story!

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Wed Aug 02, 2006 5:16 am
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Red Cap

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I think that was the idea of the heirloom - a father or mother handing something down to the deserving child. But it could also be an inheritance from old Uncle Cosmo, the renowned adventurer of the family. In fact, the vague origins of the heirloom were one of the advantages of the ability to me - it's designed to allow the GM to work into the story, or even use it as a hook for further adventures. Like - what if the heirloom was a jeweled brooch that turns out to hold a clue to an undiscovered "dungeon"? Or a sword the family "liberated" from an ancient tomb - the sword had been hidden for years, but now, in the hands of an adventuring noble it attracts the notice of a secretive cult, etc etc etc.


Thu Aug 03, 2006 3:00 pm
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Lore Drake

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IMO the idea of the heirloom at fixed character levels is a bit silly. Such things should be handled by roleplaying. A character should not receive an item or such just because there is a class ability that says so. This does not help a DM's creativity, if he MUST prepare something for the PC.


Thu Aug 03, 2006 6:25 pm
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Red Cap

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Well, a DM must prepare an adventure for the party - why not use those heirlooms as a hook. It also reinforces the concept that a noble's power comes from his wealth, rather than training.


Thu Aug 03, 2006 6:36 pm
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Lore Drake

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I like serleran's approach, since it is not constrained by fixed character levels (as was previously proposed), and it is completely up to the CK to evaluate the when's and how's. Sort of a materialistic "favor".

Cheers,

Antonio


Thu Aug 03, 2006 9:47 pm
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Red Cap

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I think the value of fixed levels, though, is to keep other players from suspecting CK favoritism. By treating the heirlooms as class abilities, functionally the same as a fighter's weapon specialization or a rogue's back attack ability, you maintain a sense of fairness. Of course, YMMV.


Fri Aug 04, 2006 3:39 pm
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Lore Drake

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Quote:
johns wrote:
I think the value of fixed levels, though, is to keep other players from suspecting CK favoritism. By treating the heirlooms as class abilities, functionally the same as a fighter's weapon specialization or a rogue's back attack ability, you maintain a sense of fairness. Of course, YMMV.



If there are such suspects, then AD&D, C&C (and RPGs in general) perhaps are not the correct game to play. It is contrary to the spirit of what a DM's job should be; for such ideas of "roleplaying" there is 3e, I guess, where the DM must only ensure that rules are applied. Thanks to god this is C&C.

Antonio


Sun Aug 06, 2006 10:28 pm
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Lore Drake

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Quote:
johns wrote:
I think the value of fixed levels, though, is to keep other players from suspecting CK favoritism. By treating the heirlooms as class abilities, functionally the same as a fighter's weapon specialization or a rogue's back attack ability, you maintain a sense of fairness. Of course, YMMV.



I think the two could be combined, where the noble is offered the reward of an heirloom. every so many levels, but only if he accompishes some sort of task first.
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Sun Aug 06, 2006 10:53 pm
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Red Cap

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Here's the link to the class being discussed:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=380229

And here are the relevant areas of discussion - just so people can see how the original author conceived of the mechanics of inheritance.

#1: The Inheritance Ability

Inheritance [1st/5th/10th/15th/20th Level]: Access to wealth has obvious benefits. To assist him in his exploits and dealings with commoners and other dangers, the noble is bestowed Inheritances by his Aristocracy as long as he maintains his good standing [see Aristocracy class feature].

At 1st level, he is granted his choice of a masterwork version of any weapon in which he is proficient. At 5th level and every five levels thereafter, the noble is granted the single magical item of his choice, with the DMs approval, of a value no greater than 3,000gp x his noble level when granted.

#2: The Noble's "Aristocracy"

Aristocracy: Unlike some mere commoner, the noble did not sprout fully-formed from the mud in rags and black teeth; he would have you know he is the product of a refined, cultured heritage and aristocratic upbringing. His continued ties with this elite community benefits him throughout his career.

The noble must designate a specific social circle or noble family as his Aristocracy, which can be a royal court, elite family, or upper class specific to a city or location. The nobles standing with his Aristocracy determines his access to Inheritance [see Inheritance class feature] and can affect his ability to advance in this class. The noble starts his career in good standing with his Aristocracy, but his actions and forces beyond his control can damage this relationship in following:

A noble in good standing with his Aristocracy has full access to his Inheritance and may advance freely in the class normally.

To claim an Inheritance, the noble must physically return to his Aristocracy in good standing. If the noble fails to return in a timely fashion, he shows disrespect and risks being denied that specific Inheritance. Each character level he attains after acquiring an Inheritance without returning to claim it incurs a cumulative 25% chance that when he does finally return, he will forfeit it for his disrespect. For example, a 5th-level noble who fails to claim his Inheritance until reaching 7th-level risks a 50% chance that his Inheritance will be denied him once he returns.

Inheritances are typically family heirlooms or prized treasures with long histories and names; the noble is expected to retain any Inheritance to preserve its place within the Aristocracy. If his Aristocracy learns that the noble willingly sold, destroyed, or discarded an Inheritance, his ingratitude automatically forfeits his rights to his next Inheritance. Before he incurs this loss, he may perform a quest for his Aristocracy to repent and prove his worthiness for such generous gifts. When the noble no longer needs a particular item of Inheritance, he is expected to retire it to a safe location or return it to the Aristocracy.

If the noble deeply offends, embarrasses, or betrays his Aristocracy, he is disgraced. A disgraced noble loses access to all future Inheritances and earns the disdain and contempt of his Aristocracy and all affiliated nobility. In addition, whenever the disgraced noble takes another level of noble, he suffers a 5% to earned experience points until he takes a level in another class. The disgraced noble can perform a quest of atonement to regain his good standing with his Aristocracy, with the difficulty of the quest commensurate with the gravity of the offense, although Inheritances lost while disgraced are not regained.

If his Aristocracy is destroyed by revolution, war, scandal, or plague, for example he is considered ruined. A ruined noble loses access to all future Inheritances and, whenever he takes another level of noble, suffers a 5% to earned experience points until taking a level in another class. Only the restoration of his Aristocracy to its rightful prominence can restore a ruined noble to good standing, although Inheritances lost while ruined cannot be regained.


Mon Aug 07, 2006 8:32 pm
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