Familiars & Homunculi- do you use them??

BLOOD AXE · Post by **BLOOD AXE** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:34 am

Just curious. Do your players use familiars or a homunculus? Or do they consider them too much of a vulnerability. My players never used them- they were always afraid they would be killed.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:38 am

My players often use familiars. They are usually smart enough to use sensible precautions to keep their familiar alive.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

BLOOD AXE · Post by **BLOOD AXE** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:47 am

Do you let the Player influence which Familiar he gets or do you determine it totally randomly??

Come on Pseudo-Dragon. Come on Pseudo-Dragon!!!

DAMN!! A Toad......

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:05 am

BLOOD AXE wrote:
Do you let the Player influence which Familiar he gets or do you determine it totally randomly??

Come on Pseudo-Dragon. Come on Pseudo-Dragon!!!

DAMN!! A Toad......

At first level? No. But if they wait until about 5th level? Yes.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

TheNewGuy · Post by **TheNewGuy** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:43 am

BLOOD AXE wrote:
Just curious. Do your players use familiars or a homunculus? Or do they consider them too much of a vulnerability. My players never used them- they were always afraid they would be killed.

Rarely, because time spent role-playing the familiar/master relationship (my players like a full mix of battle and role-play in their fantasy rpgs) leaves the rest of the players and their characters looking on as mere spectators.

That said, I've found that if you want to bring some role-play to your games and your players aren't used to it, introducing a familiar that you can role-play as CK (DM) can often be a good way to "break the roleplaying ice".

Your players may never think to have their characters talk to anyone outside of "quest givers", but if you suddenly introduce a talkative, curious familiar creature to the party -- one who starts in-character conversations on their own -- it can be a way of showing (rather than telling) your players that roleplay is okay and fun. You, as CK, go first and lead by example.

Familiars can also be useful for drawing shy players into the action.

As above, if you see the shy player holding back, suddenly the talking raven jumps on the head of the player's character, peers upside down into their eyes, and says, "Hey, I bet you know how to pick that lock, right? You're not as drunk as the rest of these guys!"

Two rules if you go this route:

1) Try to make the familiar funny, reasonably useful, and not too annoying.

2) If player characters say rude or mean things to the familiar, have it laugh, as though it thinks the player character is joking. Getting into a an ongoing squabble with a player-character always goes badly for the familiar in the end.

As far as random familiars -- if you're going for role-playing potential, pick whatever you think works best for your group. It's often best to have these kinds of familiars come in as part of the story/adventure anyway, whenever you think the party is ready.

If you don't want a familiar as a character -- and they're just considered "breathing treasure" by your players, then rolling is fine -- but, as has been said, you'll probably want to wait until your group is beyond 1st level in this case.

Hope this helps!

TheNewGuy

Zudrak · Post by **Zudrak** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 12:24 pm

TheNewGuy wrote:
Two rules if you go this route:

1) Try to make the familiar funny, reasonably useful, and not too annoying.

This is important. Go for a Yoda vibe, not a Jar-Jar, Dobby, or Gollum.

Quote:
2) If player characters say rude or mean things to the familiar, have it laugh, as though it thinks the player character is joking. Getting into a an ongoing squabble with a player-character always goes badly for the familiar in the end.

Another good rule.

As for "assigning" a familiar, I sometimes use outside circumstances to dictate who gets what. Same goes for inherited possessions.

For instance, in the solo campaign with my son, I allowed his fighter/wizard elf to "inherit" my late wife's familiar pseudo-dragon. It gives him a cool tool to use in the game and also helps him feel "in touch" with his mommy's legacy.

Granted, not many gamers will have this issue to deal with, but using creative ways of allowing players to "have" things has made for some fun games and generally gets rewarded because the players, too, will come up with creative solutions and ideas.
_________________
AD&D, Amish Dungeons & Dragons.

"Galstaff, ye are in a cornfield, when a moustachioed man approaches. What say ye?"

"I shun him."

-----

"Knowledge, logic, reason, and common sense serve better than a dozen rule books."

-- E. Gary Gygax

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:19 pm

If I ever had a PC spellcaster in the party, I'd allow it, if they wanted one. For me... I don't go for a familiar until about 4th level, when I can survive a little bit, and not have to "blow" a spell selection on getting the danged spell. After that, I like the spells that bring in minions.

BLOOD AXE · Post by **BLOOD AXE** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:26 pm

So an Illusionist can't have a familiar? The spell specifically says it bonds with the caster, and its only a Wizard spell.

Druids with a familiar seems to make sense. Who else would bond with an animal. Animal Friendship spell isnt the same.

Some old Dragon mags have excellent articles on Familiars. They increase in power or gain small abilities as the Wizard goes up in level. Also Gren Ronin or Mongoose(or somebody) has a book all about Familiars- Hidden Toad, Crouching Monkey or a strange name like that.

Steven Brust has the Jhereg book series about Vlad Taltos(an Assassin w/ some witchcraft) and his jhereg(pseudo-dragon) familiar.

CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:31 pm

We use a lot of the stuff from the Book of Familiars (TLG). It's another d20 book worth putting through to SIEGE mechanics (imo).

Mostly we have used the "Familiars can do more things (i.e. Improved and Superior Familiar feats and powers) at higher levels" thing.

(edit: and technically, the book's strictest conversion would allow all classes to get either a familiar or animal companion.)
_________________
The Rock says ...

Know your roll!

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:03 pm

Path of Magic by FFG has some neat ideas for familiars too, improving them via XP points.

Rigon · Post by **Rigon** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:39 pm

If a wizard PC wants a familar, I don't see any reason not to allow one. It is up to the PC to safe gaurd their familar though, and smart NPCs tend to be on the look out for them.

R-
_________________
Rigon o' the Lakelands, Baron of The Castles & Crusades Society
The Book of the Mind

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:16 pm

CharlieRock wrote:
We use a lot of the stuff from the Book of Familiars (TLG). It's another d20 book worth putting through to SIEGE mechanics (imo).

Too true. Though with C&C's less emphasis on mechanics style of play, the d20 Book of Familiars will really end up slimmed down if converted over. However, I agree whole heartedly. TLG's Book of Familiars is really an extraordinarily good book on the subject matter.

-O
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

csperkins1970 · Post by **csperkins1970** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:28 pm

I modified the old AD&D spell for summoning familiars...
Find Familiar

Conjuration/Summoning

Level: Wizard 1, Illusionist 1

Components: V, S, M

Casting Time: 8 hours

Range: 30 (Close)

Targets: One summoned familiar

Duration: Permanent

Saving Throw: None

Spell Resistance: No

A familiar is of certain benefit to a caster, as the creature adds to the spellcaster's hit points, it conveys its sensory powers to its master, and it can converse with and will serve as a guard/scout/spy as well. However, the caster has no control over what sort of creature will answer the summoning, or if any at all will come, and the power of the conjuration is such that it can be attempted but once per year.

At such time as the caster determines to find a familiar, he or she must stoke up a brass brazier with charcoal, and when this is burning well, add 100 gold pieces worth of incense, herbs (basil, savory, and catnip for sure), and fat. When these items are burning, the spellcaster begins his or her incantation, and it must be continued for at least 8 hours.

Your referee will secretly determine all results. The caster has absolutely no control over what sort of a creature appears to become his or her familiar. This will be determined on the following table:

Normal familiars have 6 hit points, an armor class of 15 (due to size, speed, etc.) and makes saving throws as its master does. Each is abnormally intelligent, with an intelligence of 8 + their masters intelligence modifier, and totally faithful to the caster whose familiar it becomes. The familiar's hit points are added to the hit point total of the caster when it is within 60 of its master, but if the familiar should ever be killed, the master will lose those bonus hit points and permanently lose a like amount of hit points from their hit point total.

BLOOD AXE · Post by **BLOOD AXE** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:41 pm

Well, I actualy did run into a familiar for Druids. I have to see if I can find it again. I think it was an old Dragon magazine. Basically the Druid takes a lump of mud, leaves, & twigs and molds it into his Familiar.

A "regular" Familiar seems better then a Homunculus. A Familiar adds to the Master's hit points, a Homunculus doesnt. When you have d4 HP, those extra HP are important.

A flying Familiar, like a crow, seems to have some distinct advantages as a scout. Outside a dungeon at least.

Moorcrys · Post by **Moorcrys** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:20 am

This is another raised hand for converting the Book of Familiars to C&C. It was the first TLG book I bought and I loved the material in there. It certainly started my lurking around on this site (well, the old site anyway).
Even if that'll never happen, if you're looking for some good takes on familiars it's certainly worth picking up the book if you can find it. Use the material for inspiration.
_________________
----------------

Moorcrys

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:07 am

BLOOD AXE wrote:
Do you let the Player influence which Familiar he gets or do you determine it totally randomly??

Come on Pseudo-Dragon. Come on Pseudo-Dragon!!!

DAMN!! A Toad......

If it sounds good for the 'story' of the character, why not?

"My mage has always had an affinity for hawks. The beauty and grace as they swim through the air touches his soul."

So, why not use such a hook to develop a character?
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Deogolf · Post by **Deogolf** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:28 pm

I think familiars are fine. We usually gave the restriction to wait until they were 4th level (AD&D). We would have probably done the same in C&C.
_________________
Eulaliaaa!!! Give those rapscallions blood and vinegar, wot?!

Be sure to check out Jim's artwork for sale:
http://jimhollowayart.com/id5.html

Zudrak · Post by **Zudrak** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:03 pm

Deogolf wrote:
I think familiars are fine. We usually gave the restriction to wait until they were 4th level (AD&D). We would have probably done the same in C&C.

In the spirit of the SIEGE engine, I could see the mage adding his level to his roll on the table to generate a "better" familiar. Of course, "better" is a subjective term when it comes to the more mundane animals.
_________________
AD&D, Amish Dungeons & Dragons.

"Galstaff, ye are in a cornfield, when a moustachioed man approaches. What say ye?"

"I shun him."

-----

"Knowledge, logic, reason, and common sense serve better than a dozen rule books."

-- E. Gary Gygax

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:08 pm

I would actually, rather than allowing level to be added, do something like:

The mage can use their Intelligence modifier to set the max and minimum result of the roll, selecting any result that resides between. For example, Bubba Ho Tep has an 18 Intelligence and rolls a 5. He can select anything between a 2 and 8.

clavis123 · Post by **clavis123** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:11 pm

In my campaign ALL familiars, not just the "special" ones, are actually spirits in material form. So that toad familiar only looks like a toad; its actually a minor spirit bound into toad form. It doesn't need to be cared for like a toad, doesn't necessarily eat flies, etc. When animal familiars (others than crows and ravens) speak with their master, the master hears it in common speech, but others only hear the familiar making animal noises. I try to make the familiar's personality the exact opposite of the master's, so its a kind of Jungian shadow-self.

Familiars have supernatural knowledge, and are a link to the spirit world for wizards. Therefore, I let wizards ask their familiars questions, and I generally use the familiar as a kind of CK's mouthpiece. The familiars are NOT omniscient in any way, however. "Special" familiars also have their own agendas. For example, the Chaotic Neutral wizard in my campaign has a Quasit familiar. It's become obvious that the Quasit is trying to tempt the wizard into acts of evil, and hopes to eventually harvest his soul for the Abyss.

IMHO the CK should never make a wizard's familiar a target in combat, unless the wizard himself tells the familiar to attack something. Someone actually capturing and threatening to kill the familiar can be used as a major plot point in an adventure, but its the sort of thing you should only do once in a campaign.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:34 pm

clavis123 wrote:
In my campaign ALL familiars, not just the "special" ones, are actually spirits in material form. So that toad familiar only looks like a toad; its actually a minor spirit bound into toad form. It doesn't need to be cared for like a toad, doesn't necessarily eat flies, etc. When animal familiars (others than crows and ravens) speak with their master, the master hears it in common speech, but others only hear the familiar making animal noises. I try to make the familiar's personality the exact opposite of the master's, so its a kind of Jungian shadow-self.

Familiars have supernatural knowledge, and are a link to the spirit world for wizards. Therefore, I let wizards ask their familiars questions, and I generally use the familiar as a kind of CK's mouthpiece. The familiars are NOT omniscient in any way, however. "Special" familiars also have their own agendas. For example, the Chaotic Neutral wizard in my campaign has a Quasit familiar. It's become obvious that the Quasit is trying to tempt the wizard into acts of evil, and hopes to eventually harvest his soul for the Abyss.

IMHO the CK should never make a wizard's familiar a target in combat, unless the wizard himself tells the familiar to attack something. Someone actually capturing and threatening to kill the familiar can be used as a major plot point in an adventure, but its the sort of thing you should only do once in a campaign.

I don't target familiars very often, its usually the fire balls, lightning bolts, and other area of effect damage spells that kill the familiars.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

Zudrak · Post by **Zudrak** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:41 pm

serleran wrote:
I would actually, rather than allowing level to be added, do something like:

The mage can use their Intelligence modifier to set the max and minimum result of the roll, selecting any result that resides between. For example, Bubba Ho Tep has an 18 Intelligence and rolls a 5. He can select anything between a 2 and 8.

I like that idea, serl, I just thought that the higher-level the mage, the better mastery of their power they have and thus could get a bonus to the roll. I mean, CK's can do what they want, of course, but I like throwing ideas out there to benefit the C&C'ers at large.
_________________
AD&D, Amish Dungeons & Dragons.

"Galstaff, ye are in a cornfield, when a moustachioed man approaches. What say ye?"

"I shun him."

-----

"Knowledge, logic, reason, and common sense serve better than a dozen rule books."

-- E. Gary Gygax

BLOOD AXE · Post by **BLOOD AXE** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:49 pm

I think a having a Familiar that suits the Wizard is a good idea. A fire-wielding Evoker could get a small fire-spirit or elemental type familiar. A Necromancer a floating skull. Etc,etc.

The player should probably be involved so he is happy with his new companion.

Balthock · Post by **Balthock** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:35 pm

My group is exploring a wizard's tower. Two weeks ago, (Saturday, the 8th) they encountered the wizard's homunculus, his name was Gygax! I couldn't help myself, I looked over at the (physically) empty chair we set at the table, the character sheet, and the dice and it just felt right. I hope Gary liked it...
_________________
Meet me at Stonehenge at Midnight. I'll bring the goat.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 9:23 pm

skerns wrote:
My group is exploring a wizard's tower. Two weeks ago, (Saturday, the 8th) they encountered the wizard's homunculus, his name was Gygax! I couldn't help myself, I looked over at the (physically) empty chair we set at the table, the character sheet, and the dice and it just felt right. I hope Gary liked it...

*chuckles* Well, you could always have this critter be swayed by bribes that involve a good cigar and various quality alcoholic beverages. That would be a fitting tribute.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Balthock · Post by **Balthock** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 4:05 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
*chuckles* Well, you could always have this critter be swayed by bribes that involve a good cigar and various quality alcoholic beverages. That would be a fitting tribute.

I'll keep that in mind! They'll likely encounter him again...
_________________
Meet me at Stonehenge at Midnight. I'll bring the goat.

Troll Lord Games

Familiars & Homunculi- do you use them??

Familiars & Homunculi- do you use them??

Re: Familiars & Homunculi- do you use them??

Re: Familiars & Homunculi- do you use them??

Just used a homunculi

Re: Just used a homunculi

Re: Just used a homunculi