Alright. I'm starting a thread. Heh.

Jason · Post by **Jason** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 7:06 am

In my campaign world I have decided that spells above 6th level were off limits. Basically the age of legends has just passed.

Are there any rule changes I should make for wizards and clerics?

I know that their spell lists might need modification.

I'm throwing this out for the input some of you diehards might have.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 8:00 am

That is a good question. I guess since your gutting their most powerful levels of spells you could make them more like a fighter class. Maybe improve their BtH rate to +1 every two levels and up their HD to a d6.

Jason · Post by **Jason** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 8:07 am

Heh. I didn't consider HD changes. That sounds like a good deal.

Good thing I asked that question here. I know what I think of won't cover all the bases.

All I've mainly thought about so far is possibly giving them more lower leveled spells.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 8:13 am

I don't know if the more HD and improved BtH would work too well.

At levels 1-12 they'd have more HP's and be better in melee but possess the same magical capability.

"I hit him with a fireball then wade in with my whoopin' stick!"
If you go that route you'd have to lower their spell progression to balance it all out.

rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 8:47 am

I would simply let things as they stand. Magic is simply more rare, and it would apply to all spellcasters in the campaign.

I would even let higher than 6th spell level slots, and use them for casting any spells of lower level; think of it as a sort of "special ability".

In this way you do not have to touch anything.

Cheers,

Antonio

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 12:20 pm

I also think that by cutting off spells beyond a certain level, you don't have to do any other modifications. Unless you plan on your campaign going to higher levels the spell casting classes probably would need to be "upgraded" with special abilities to make up for the lack of high level spells.

......................................Omote

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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 12:56 pm

Also, giving more lower level spells means they will actually be more effective. They'll have more straight-out damage spells like Magic Missile, more Teleports and defensive spells, and more Hastes to make really important fights not so harsh, though the party warriors might get ticked if they keep losing hit points permanently. Remember, in C&C, spells do not have a damage cap, so if a 14th level mage casts magic missile (I'd have to look to see if that particular spell has a cap), it deals 7d4+7 damage, no save, no attack. Now, normally, he can only cast X number of them, so he'll be doing let's say, 35d4+35 spread over 5 castings.... which is a lot. But, if you give him more spells, and you up that to 8, well, he deals quite a lot more (56d4+56), so you can see he's helluva lot more potent.

Maliki · Post by **Maliki** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 2:05 am

rabindranath72 wrote:
I would simply let things as they stand. Magic is simply more rare, and it would apply to all spellcasters in the campaign.

I would even let higher than 6th spell level slots, and use them for casting any spells of lower level; think of it as a sort of "special ability".

In this way you do not have to touch anything.

Cheers,

Antonio

I like this idea.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 3:56 am

Maliki wrote:
I like this idea.

Yeah, that will probably work real well. As for expanding their spell lists that didn't occur to me since I use the 2E spell lists for my game.

miller6 · Post by **miller6** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 7:04 am

rabindranath72 wrote:
I would simply let things as they stand. Magic is simply more rare, and it would apply to all spellcasters in the campaign.

I would even let higher than 6th spell level slots, and use them for casting any spells of lower level; think of it as a sort of "special ability".

In this way you do not have to touch anything.

Cheers,

Antonio

Personally, I'd just cap the campaign at 12th level if you don't like higher level spells. Playing characters above that isn't nearly as much fun anyway...can be, but often it's more fun playing the hapless underdog .
The way I see it, at low levels, survival is mostly about role-playing and strategy rather than magical prowess, then at higher levels the difficulty scaling factor turns the game into "kill or be killed in 1 round" (i.e. I cast temporal stasis...no save!").

I capped my campaign at 20th level.

The other thing you could do is allow the higher level spells but impose a major penalty for using them. An argument could be that they tear the planar fabric, creating growing spheres of annihilation. Suddenly, people stop casting the "big dogs" unless absolutely necessary. Especially when the wish or gate to close the sphere of anihilation just creates another one! A method to discourage character's from exploiting the spheres of anihilation as a weapon against enemy bases is to have some higher being(s) monitoring dimensional rifts...to punish those who create tears by closing the rift and sticking that character in a magic-proof, damage proof birdcage for a year (i.e. a ki-rin or titan, couatl, etc.).

That's just one example I've used in the past where I'm sure others could tell you many different ways to discourage the use of higher level spells without having to ban them entirely.

Brian Miller
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"The adventure continues"

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 7:41 am

Like you, I think that capping it at 12th is a good way to go. I'm a fan of mid-level gaming myself. However:

miller6 wrote:
The other thing you could do is allow the higher level spells but impose a major penalty for using them.

I like that idea as well. Perhaps with the "Age of Legend" passing, the inherant magic of the world is fading. The fading magic makes the higher level spells impossible to cast without greatly lending the wizards strength to the act of empowering the spell.

The effect? CON damage for higher level spells, regainable at the rate of 1pt per day. Make the con drain hefty enough that most wizards will be leary of using 1 or 2 high level spells a week, if that. HOwever, for truly dire situations the wizard can be truly heroic and go "all out".

Jason · Post by **Jason** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 7:25 am

Capping the game at 12th level seems easiest. Not to mention that very few PCs make it that high in my campaign. Heh

anglefish · Post by **anglefish** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:56 am

My question is "What is your real goal for the Age of Legends passing?"

1. Is it to provide a background reason for introducing a magic cap for high-level PC spellcasters to make them more controllable?

2. Is it a way to introduce the feel of magic dying in your game world?

A twist on the second reason would be to limit NPC spell-casters to lower magics and play out the concequences of the PC spell-casters being one of the few that still have potent magics.

Some encounter possiblities:

* Kings and Queens who bribe or threaten the PC to work solely for the kingdom

* Others seem them as a danger, assasination attempts abound

* Other surviving potent casters want to form a special order and change the world

* Their power comes with a phyiscal price, they are dying.

* Jealous lesser mages demand magical duels to improve their fading reputations

* They feel the pull of a final resting place

I'm a "my gameworld is the players' sandbox" GM. I love throwing out moral decisions and see how the players try to twist and turn their PCs to make the most of the fallout.

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:10 am

With 'Magic' departing the gameword (for whichever reason)... for those approaching the cap to their power... to me would represent an ideal opportunity to Dual-Class into another class.

However if the Dual-Class option is simply... not an option:

Considering for a moment that a wizard wouldn't have to devote as much of their time to their studies as they used to. What would they do with their new spare time... Maybe another discipline. I know some already mentioned maybe a better BtH progression but instead, how about the allowance of being able to use a new weapon (one of the player's choice).

Just a thought.

Moriarty the Red
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Jason · Post by **Jason** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:11 am

anglefish wrote:
My question is "What is your real goal for the Age of Legends passing?"

1. Is it to provide a background reason for introducing a magic cap for high-level PC spellcasters to make them more controllable?

2. Is it a way to introduce the feel of magic dying in your game world?

iT'S MOSTLY A PLOT DEVICE THAT HAS BEEN IN THE MAKING FOR YEARS NOW. Damned caps key.

My game world has been around nearly 20 years and it's seen much high leveled play over the years. Lately it's been lower powered play. I've decided that high leveled play isn't my thing these days - when it becomes my thing again I can reintroduce powerful magicks. For now I want a sword and sorcery feel to the game world - something like Conan and the like....

anglefish · Post by **anglefish** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:44 am

Jason wrote:
For now I want a sword and sorcery feel to the game world - something like Conan and the like....

Honestly then?

Do what they used to do in Pendragon. No spellcasting classes.

The big advantage of CnC is that if avoid certain monsters that can only be hit by magical weapons (like the werewolf) then YOU'll never miss magical weapons (Caps mine, not a typo ) Though your players may think they do. And when the finally do get magic items, it will seem extra special compared to "another +1 sword."

Another big advantage to CnC? The pesudoskills of SEIGE. Give someone a Healing skill and assign a certain number of d6 heals to successful rolls (modified by injuries and the like) It's a trick I picked up in Fantasy Flight Game's d20 Redline. (Something people might mine for post-apok ideas). Now cleric magic is optional too, which is even more old school sword and sorcerery.

Of course this makes the Paladin look even more like a dabbler compared to the evil wizard NPCs who still have some magic heft to them. You could also bring on his healing abilities on a bit sooner and replicate them in the bard.

In other words, I think it's doable with very little tweaking and it would deliver the feel you loooking for in spades.

... of course it doesn't hurt that fequent death is also a part of the genre.
As a sidenote, something very sword/sorcerery that would add flavor and abilities to your came would be Monte Cook's Choasitech. Give the bad guys more than just magic, give them corrupt magitech. http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/10/10210.phtml
http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mpress_Chaos